Forgiveness

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davidjh

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Blessings to you all this Advent,

I wasn’t sure where to post this subject, so hopefully this place is ok.

I was wondering about forgiveness. There are times in my life, once again just yesterday, that someone does something hurtful to me. This is something that any reasonable person would see as bad. However, the person that did it either does not think their actions bad, or they don’t care. People always tell me, “You have to forgive them.”

My question is this: How can we forgive someone who has no desire to be forgiven? We aren’t as perfect as God and even God requires us to ask for forgiveness before he gives it, right? We must be sorry and ask for pardon, or else we remain in sin and are not forgiven. One reason for this I suspect is that we have free will, so we must use free will to choose to love God or not. Love can’t be forced.

So, if I told someone they are forgiven for what they did to me and they have no desire to be forgiven, then I am taking away their free will in a way.

So, CAN WE FORGIVE someone who does not ask for it, and if not, how do we deal with it ourselves? Forgiveness releases us from anger and stress, so if we can’t do it, what do we do?

Blessings,
David
(San Francsico)
 
Good question. Personally, I don’t think it matters whether someone WANTS to be forgiven or gives outward signs of it or follows up with warm fuzzies.

It may be about us, not them. It may be about God.

I think it’s about how we treat others whether they ‘deserve’ it or not—maybe someone else can elaborate, but it makes me think of Divine Mercy.
 
Thanks for the reply. If this is the case though, why do we have to ask for forgiveness of God for our wrong-doings? If we can forgive others without being asked, surely, God being more perfect, would forgive us even if we never ask.

I don’t believe this, but trying to make a point.🤷

Blessings,
David
 
Friend…I think sometimes we are like an ant crawling around trying to fit all the puzzle pieces together when God from above can see the pieces and is useing us to fulfill his plan.

He might be trying to use you to be a light for Christ, so always obey God’s word and show humility, God’s word says “my Grace is sufficient”. You do what’s right, pray for the other person and let God deal with them.

Sin breaks fellowship, wheather with God or others, humility & forgiveness with restore fellowship with God and hopefully other people, if not you did your part by obeying God and that’s what really matters the most friend…

Mike†
 
I may not be following.

The primary offense in any sin is always against God. When we forgive others, say to face to face, we are setting things right, to the person and to God at the same time.

If the other person isn’t present, can’t be directly met (due to some situation, e.g., in prison, dead, unapproachable, dangerous, etc.), then we meet with God in prayer and tell God that we have truly forgiven the offense, and beg God for the Forgiveness of them as well.

We might even, out of charity and in a spirit of Christian unity, do Penance for them as well.

Be careful with the “presumption” of forgiveness. It should be our will/decision to amend relations with God and others. We shouldn’t be lured into a dangerous presumption. It can lead to a laziness in our spiritual life. Our will should be energetic and initiating in our approach to God.
 
The primary offense in any sin is always against God. When we forgive others, say to face to face, we are setting things right, to the person and to God at the same time.
Thanks Brother for your reply. I understand it is better to forgive, but trying to see how it fits into the Church teaching and why we then must be sorry before we are forgiven by God.

Above you say that when we forgive others, we are setting things right. At the same time you said the sin is between the person doing the sin and God. If it is between the person and God only, then what we do makes no difference. If you commit adultry and don’t care or ask forgiveness from God, my forgiving you will not “set things right.” The setting things right is you asking forgiveness from God and being sorry for the sin.

On the eartly level, your act directly affected me although the sin was against God.

Here is another example. Say I steal from you and I have no regrets, don’t care, and don’t want forgiveness from you or God. You can “forgive” me and it will not change my view and not repair my sin with God. In fact, if you tell me you forgive me when I don’t want it, it may make me insulted and more mad.

So, I still ask, is it even possible to forgive someone who does not ask for or want it? Can it be a ONE WAY thing, and if so, my question goes back to why the Church then teaches very specific things one must do to be forgiven in confession, including being sorry for the sin, and asking for forgiveness.

I think I would forgive anyone for ANYthing they did to me if they asked for forgiveness, but I have a very hard time forgiving someone who does not want it.

I’m not trying to be a pain, I;m just wrestling with this in my own mind, looking for understanding.

Blessings,
David
 
Thanks for the reply. If this is the case though, why do we have to ask for forgiveness of God for our wrong-doings? If we can forgive others without being asked, surely, God being more perfect, would forgive us even if we never ask.

I don’t believe this, but trying to make a point.🤷

Blessings,
David
He’s God. We’re not. He makes the rules. We don’t.
 
Good post and points

First to your last point: Being sorry isn’t the same as feeling sorry. We may or may not feel sorry. Would be nice if we were, but the key thing is your will/your decision to forgive or be forgiven, not your corresponding feelings. Don’t be fooled into thinking that feeling sorry is what counts. It’s your will and your intellect. They need to be in charge.

What I actually said was: The primary offense in any sin is always against God. Others are almost always involved but they are secondary relationships.

I think broadly considered more sins involve others than don’t. If I masturbate, I sin against God and against my wife.

If I pray distractedly, without any effort, or with a chip on my shoulder, I sin against God, but it could also be said that I am sinning against my family because I am not open and eager to receive the help that God can give me through a generous prayer, in order to help my family.

Your example: "If you commit adultry and don’t care or ask forgiveness from God, my forgiving you will not “set things right.”

They will set things right with you and God. Even though you didn’t commit adultery, if in your heart you’re harboring resentment or passing judgment over my sin of adultery…then you now have a problem with God; I am not alone. : >

Yes, it’s possible to forgive someone who doesn’t ask for it because it’s your free will to do that. It’s a useful prayer to make: “Lord I hold nothing on them. I am a wretched sinner. I have sinned far worse against you and against my brothers and sisters. ‘Forgive them for they know not what they do’.”

Your act of forgiveness/contrition doesn’t need to be reciprocated, since the primary relation is God. If you hold back your forgiveness because you’re waiting on it being asked for…that’s not Christian forgiveness. What did Jesus say on the Cross?

It’s not so much “one way”…as a triangle. With God as a party to both.

We can’t make our forgiveness “conditional”/strings attached.
 
When you forgive, it is mainly for Gods sake, as we are told, love God above all else with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself for the love of God.
but it is also for your own sake, and for the good of your neighbor,
not because he deserves it, but because God does, because remember that we are told "Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me. " Matthew 25:40
what we do to or for others, we also do to or for Jesus…so don’t think of it just as something you must do for the sake of your soul, but think of it as a great opportunity for the love of Jesus!

if someone apologized to you, no doubt you would forgive them, but what kind of charity is that? true charity never thinks of self, because true love is something given, and never something taken or forced(which is of course something we have to work on, and not something we will obtain very easily)
we are to love our neighbor, whether they love us or not, and part of that love is not just feeling like forgiving them, but wanting to,
there is a big difference between what you “feel” and what you “will”, we are not asked to love our neighbor in our feelings and affections, which we rarely have any control over, but instead we are asked to love them in our actions towards them, our example to them, and our prayers for them,

even if someone doesn’t ask for forgiveness, that really has nothing to do with you, it is their problem, and you should not make it your problem also,

of course it’s not always easy to forgive, sometimes people do really nasty things that hurt us very much, but if you have to give yourself a bit of time to let the hurt feelings go away, then that’s ok, and you should just pray while you’re waiting, for God to give you the love and strength to forgive.

to genuinely forgive with love in any circumstance no matter how bad, is not something you will master in a short time, you simply need to pray for it, and practice all of your virtues, which will help very much, and frequent the sacraments which will give you the graces you need to grow in your virtues,

just don’t think of it in terms of “I can’t do it” but instead, “I can’t do it alone”, when you recognize your complete dependence on God and act according to that, then you will not worry about what you can or can’t do, you will instead seek Gods help in all things, and depending on your own willingness to do His will and receive His graces, you will be able to accomplish this in particular, and much much more,

you mentioned that if someone tried to forgive you when you don’t want it(if you were that kind of person) that it would make you feel insulted and mad,
but look at it this way,
those people who go around being nasty and not caring, there is a good chance that many of them just haven’t been loved very much, which is not surprising in this day and age, and that lack of love in them or lack of love shown to them, will make them selfish that way,
but perhaps if you just show them that bit of selfless charity, then a seed of love may atleast be planted in them…
now of course that is not a sure thing, but it is certainly worth it to try, because you never know what may spark that flame in someones heart,
remember this quote “Preach often, and when necessary, use words” by Saint Vincent ferrer i think,
basically, your actions speak much louder than words, and people are much more likely to listen to your actions even if they don’t acknowledge it,
so even if you don’t say “I forgive you”, just forgiving them in your actions(or not holding a grudge in the first place) may help them in ways that you cannot imagine right now.
and not to mention, even if your forgiveness doesn’t mean anything to the person who offended you, it will still influence others around you,

and one thing i wanted to mention about confession,
although you must go to confession to be absolved, God may still forgive you before that, as we read from the bible here - “And as he entered into a certain town, there met him ten men that were lepers, who stood afar off; And lifted up their voice, saying: Jesus, master, have mercy on us.Whom when he saw, he said: Go, shew yourselves to the priests. And it came to pass, as they went, they were made clean. And one of them, when he saw that he was made clean, went back, with a loud voice glorifying God.” Luke 17:12

God is not a machine, and can very well forgive us as soon as we are sorry, but God knows what is best, and knows what great benefits we receive by taking part in the sacraments,
confession is an act of humility, obedience, faith, hope, and charity, and by going and confessing with true sorrow and sincerity, we receive the necessary graces to overcome our sins, and the strength to resist temptations,
and then of course confession being a sacrament, it is also the means to gaining back the sanctifying grace we lost by mortal sin, which we received in the first place by another sacrament - baptism.
so even though God can forgive as soon as we are sorry, He chooses to do things this way, and yet we still seem to be very ungracious about it, complaining that it’s to hard or something else, as if we were entitled to Gods forgiveness at all? we are very spoiled, because in all honestly, we should be willing to go to much greater lengths to be forgiven.
well, i don’t mean to direct that at you, i just felt inspired to rant slightly d:

alright, so that’s all, i hope this helps,
(check this out to audiosancto.org/ )
 
My parish just had its Advent mission. The message centered around living a life of gratitude. Our greatest graving is for appreciation, regardless of who we are. Mother Teresa said there is a greater graving for appreciation than for bread.
The curmudgeon grows old while the person of gratitude remains youthful.
What does gratitude have to do with the OP?
Gratitude comes from Love. It is only possible to grateful if we first forgive, if we look for the positive in others, in ourselves, and in our circumstances. In the midst of a negative experience, we can thank God that we are being blessed with wisdom.
Forgiveness is a decision of the will. It is obedience to God that leads to freedom. It is agreeing to live with the consequences of another’s sin.

Jesus placed reconciliation above bringing “our gift to the altar.” It is true that the person with whom we wish to reconcile may have no desire to do so. We can forgive another person even without telling that person that we have forgiven them, especially if they are clueless of the harm that they caused. You do not need to tell a person that they hurt our feelings, for instance. We may choose instead to examine why our feelings were hurt by what the person said. Is there something deeper that is troubling us, something that we need to change within our own life?
Forgiveness and forgetfulness are not synonyms, a common misconception. Trying to forget what a person did may actually lead to resentment that surfaces later. On the other hand, our forgiveness can lead to forgetting our brother’s sin and allow us to “remove the plank” within our own eye.
 
Blessings to you all this Advent,

I wasn’t sure where to post this subject, so hopefully this place is ok.

I was wondering about forgiveness. There are times in my life, once again just yesterday, that someone does something hurtful to me. This is something that any reasonable person would see as bad. However, the person that did it either does not think their actions bad, or they don’t care. People always tell me, “You have to forgive them.”

My question is this: How can we forgive someone who has no desire to be forgiven? We aren’t as perfect as God and even God requires us to ask for forgiveness before he gives it, right? We must be sorry and ask for pardon, or else we remain in sin and are not forgiven. One reason for this I suspect is that we have free will, so we must use free will to choose to love God or not. Love can’t be forced.

So, if I told someone they are forgiven for what they did to me and they have no desire to be forgiven, then I am taking away their free will in a way.

So, CAN WE FORGIVE someone who does not ask for it, and if not, how do we deal with it ourselves? Forgiveness releases us from anger and stress, so if we can’t do it, what do we do?

Blessings,
David
(San Francsico)
I used to have a big problem with forgiveness. I wanted to forgive people who had wronged me (and they really had wronged me in a big way such as lying on depositions which caused me to lose custody of my son - blatant, horrible lies that ended up hurting a lot of people). I don’t know if they want my forgiveness. I don’t think they do. But I have forgiven them. That doesn’t mean I’ve forgiven their actions - what they did was still wrong (not to mention illegal). And I can’t forget it. How could I forget the loss of my son? Even though I’ve forgiven these people I still don’t have my son back. But that’s not the point of forgiveness.

When I forgive I am cleansing my soul. I no longer have that black stain of hatred or anger on it. As far as others are concerned, what they did is on them. Only they can ask for forgiveness and I’'m not going to wait for that.

I don’t think most people who have wronged me in my life are interested in my forgiveness. That doesn’t really matter. My faith demands forgiveness - immediate forgiveness. If someone said something nasty to me and I took offense and refused to forgive him and was then killed in an auto accident five minutes later, that stain of refusing to forgive is on my soul - not his.

I can pray for others to be enlightened but I must forgive them immediately. And that is one of the hardest things for me to do. I think it’s hard for everyone to forgive. The only reason I’ve been able to do it after years and years of trying (and sometimes believing I’ve succeeded when I really haven’t) is with God’s help and through prayer to God.

Does any one of us really want anyone who has wronged us to suffer for that action? Do I really want those people who lied in the depositions to end up in Purgatory, suffering, because of something they did to me? I really don’t. I don’t want anyone to suffer for anything he/she has done to me. I want every soul to go to heaven and be with God. Wanting revenge is a trap that catches me, not the person who wronged me.

So I forgive. I just do. It’s not quite so hard anymore. I forgive and I pray for the person who has wronged me. And I’m not claiming to be some sort of sinless person because I’m not. Sometimes I wonder why God even created me in the first place because I’m not a good person most of the time. I know that even my ability to forgive is a gift from God and I can’t take credit for receiving that gift. But I can use it.
 
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