Forgiveness

[Minion_w_a_drum]

Pope John Paul 2 forgave the guy who shot him.

But he forever rode in the armored pope-mobile after the shooting.

 

[PJM]

Pope John Paul 2 forgave the guy who shot him.

But he forever rode in the armored pope-mobile after the shooting.

Good point:thumbsup:

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

There is an old Jewish saying that goes " forgive, but tie up your camel"

Indicating that forgiveness is separate from forgetting.

One would not forget someone who say, molested thier children. Forgive with repentance, sure, but forget!? Never. Being Christian does not mean being stupid.

 

[clem456]

There is an old Jewish saying that goes " forgive, but tie up your camel"

Indicating that forgiveness is separate from forgetting.

One would not forget someone who say, molested thier children. Forgive with repentance, sure, but forget!? Never. Being Christian does not mean being stupid.

Forgiveness of one person by another is not conditional on repentance. You might choose to demand proof of repentance, but the Gospels are fairly clear about how we are to forgive, and how desperately we need forgiveness. Demanding repentance as a condition for forgiving someone is a pretty steep hill to climb in the eyes of God.
Me personally, I wouldn’t want to be explaining my thinking to God. I’d rather just forgive and be done with it. Yea, it’s hard to do.

Before a scripture-passage quoting war erupts, we all know the passages. This subject has been debated on the forums ad nauseum

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Forgiveness of one person by another is not conditional on repentance. You might choose to demand proof of repentance, but the Gospels are fairly clear about how we are to forgive, and how desperately we need forgiveness. Demanding repentance as a condition for forgiving someone is a pretty steep hill to climb in the eyes of God.
Me personally, I wouldn’t want to be explaining my thinking to God. I’d rather just forgive and be done with it. Yea, it’s hard to do.

Before a scripture-passage quoting war erupts, we all know the passages. This subject has been debated on the forums ad nauseum

It most certainly can be dependent on repentance as you well know from our discussions. I should have never put that in there. That is not a debate for this threads. Please disregard I mentioned it if it causes you to focus on that aspect. It has nothing to do with the thread. Feel free to redirect the old thread if you wish to continue the nausium.

 

[clem456]

It most certainly can be dependent on repentance as you well know from our discussions.
…

We make choices.
Sin, injustices, offenses, all lead to alienation, separation and all manner of other misery.
It’s our choice:

to pray for the offender and forgive, in the manner Christ taught us, and thus begin the process of reconciliation, preemptively,

or to expect repentance first. And so we can expect those consequences of sin to perpetuate, for ourselves and the offender. Demanding repentance as a condition is an option, for sure. It is also an option in which it is near impossible to find the good for the offender or the offended,…

It is risky to step out on a limb, leave justice for an offense to God, and give up our claim on that justice, which really belongs to him. We do not mete out justice. We take prudent steps to remediate the consequences of sin and protect the innocent from further harm, sure. We can forgive at the same time.

It is very risky to loose those chains and do the radical thing. It got Christ crucified, dining with sinners and proclaiming God’s mercy even to prostitutes and tax collectors.
Where’s the justice in that?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

We make choices.
Sin, injustices, offenses, all lead to alienation, separation and all manner of other misery.
It’s our choice:

to pray for the offender and forgive, in the manner Christ taught us, and thus begin the process of reconciliation, preemptively,

or to expect repentance first. And so we can expect those consequences of sin to perpetuate, for ourselves and the offender. Demanding repentance as a condition is an option, for sure. It is also an option in which it is near impossible to find the good for the offender or the offended,…

It is risky to step out on a limb, leave justice for an offense to God, and give up our claim on that justice, which really belongs to him. We do not mete out justice. We take prudent steps to remediate the consequences of sin and protect the innocent from further harm, sure. We can forgive at the same time.

It is very risky to loose those chains and do the radical thing. It got Christ crucified, dining with sinners and proclaiming God’s mercy even to prostitutes and tax collectors.
Where’s the justice in that?

No, Clem. God gave us a model of forgiveness. What He requires, we can require. We have been over this before, and it is for another thread.

 

[clem456]

No, Clem. God gave us a model of forgiveness. What He requires, we can require. We have been over this before, and it is for another thread.

No what? YOU ARE NOT GOD. God can do as he pleases. You are told by Christ to forgive. And by the way, it pleases God to be merciful.
It’s important that people reading this understand a Catholic perspective on what grace, mercy, and forgiveness are.
And the difference between absolution, justification, and forgiveness between people.

God’s model of offering forgiveness is patient, constant, gratuitous, at the cost of Christ’s death.
Don’t confuse consequences of our refusal to accept with the constant offer and efficacy of God’s mercy.
Please reference the words of our current and past Popes. Francis especially in this year of mercy.
The teaching of the catechism etc.

Typically the catechism and scriptures will be cherry picked out of context, to find the one or two sentences which seem to justify withholding forgiveness until our brother repents, meanwhile looking past the overwhelming exhortations to forgive sacrificially.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

No what? YOU ARE NOT GOD. God can do as he pleases. You are told by Christ to forgive. And by the way, it pleases God to be merciful.
It’s important that people reading this understand a Catholic perspective on what grace, mercy, and forgiveness are.
And the difference between absolution, justification, and forgiveness between people.

God’s model of offering forgiveness is patient, constant, gratuitous, at the cost of Christ’s death.
Don’t confuse consequences of our refusal to accept with the constant offer and efficacy of God’s mercy.
Please reference the words of our current and past Popes. Francis especially in this year of mercy.
The teaching of the catechism etc.

Typically the catechism and scriptures will be cherry picked out of context, to find the one or two sentences which seem to justify withholding forgiveness until our brother repents, meanwhile looking past the overwhelming exhortations to forgive sacrificially.

I’d be happy to continue this on the old thread. I really don’t know why you are so emotional about it.

 

[Bookcat]

scepterpublishers.org/product/index.php?FULL=549

 

[HelenRose]

Question:

IYO

Does forgives in an absolute sense require “forgetting” as well as forgiving?

Easter Blessings,

PJM

I believe that when you forgive someone, especially if you have been abused, you are freed from the bonds of co-dependency. You are not supposed to forget the abuse. Instead you become able to understand the abuser and the illness this abuser carries around with him or her. In this way you are able to free yourself from this illness.

It is a fine line between forgiving and enabling. But true forgiveness is freedom. Enabling is not.

 

[clem456]

I’d hate for emotions to obscure the message so let’s let our Papa speak for himself, and for the Church.
I love St Stephen, who was the original Christian risk taker in the area of forgiveness. I can imagine the stones were heaved just a little harder at his head when he prayed for his offenders.
w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/angelus/2015/documents/papa-francesco_angelus_20151226.html

Today we celebrate the Feast of St Stephen. The remembrance of the first martyr follows immediately after the solemnity of Christmas. Yesterday we contemplated the merciful love of God, who became flesh for us. Today we see the consistent response of Jesus’ disciple, who gives his life. Yesterday the Saviour was born on earth; today his faithful servant is born in heaven. Yesterday, as today, the shadows of the rejection of life appear, but the light of love — which conquers hatred and inaugurates a new world — shines even brighter. There is a special aspect in today’s account of the Acts of the Apostles, which brings St Stephen close to the Lord. It is his forgiveness before he is stoned to death. Nailed to the cross, Jesus said, “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do” (Lk 23:34). Likewise, Stephen “knelt down and cried with a loud voice, ‘Lord, do not hold this sin against them’” (Acts 7:60). Stephen is therefore a martyr, which means witness, because he does as Jesus did. Indeed, true witnesses are those who act as He did: those who pray, who love, who give, but above all those who forgive, because forgiveness, as the word itself says, is the highest expression of giving.

We could ask, however, what good is it to forgive? Is it merely a good deed or does it bring results? We find an answer in the very martyrdom of Stephen. Among those for whom he implores forgiveness there is a young man named Saul; this man persecuted the Church and tried to destroy her (cf. Acts 8:3). Shortly thereafter Saul becomes Paul, the great saint, the apostle of the people. He has received Stephen’s forgiveness. We could say that Paul is born by the grace of God and by Stephen’s forgiveness.

We too are born by the forgiveness of God. Not only in Baptism, but each time we are forgiven our heart is reborn, it is renewed. With each step forward in the life of faith the sign of divine mercy is imprinted anew. For only when we are loved are we in turn able to love. Let us remember this, it will be good for us: if we wish to progress in faith, first of all we must receive God’s forgiveness; we must meet the Father, who is willing to forgive all things, always, and who precisely in forgiving heals the heart and rekindles love. We must never tire of asking for divine forgiveness, because only when we are forgiven, when we feel we are forgiven, do we learn to forgive.

Forgiving, however, is not an easy thing, it is always very difficult. How can we imitate Jesus? From what point do we begin to pardon the small and great wrongs that we suffer each day? First of all, beginning with prayer, as St Stephen did. We begin with our own heart: with prayer we are able to face the resentment we feel, by entrusting to God’s mercy those who have wronged us: “Lord, I ask you for him, I ask you for her”. Then we discover that this inner struggle to forgive cleanses us of evil, and that prayer and love free us from the interior chains of bitterness. It is so awful to live in bitterness! Every day we have the opportunity to practice forgiving, to live a gesture so lofty that it brings man closer to God. Like our heavenly Father, may we too become merciful, because through forgiveness, we conquer evil with good, we transform hatred into love and in this way we make the world cleaner.

May the Virgin Mary, to whom we entrust those — and unfortunately there are so many — who like St Stephen suffer persecution in the name of the faith, our many martyrs of today, direct our prayer to receive and give forgiveness. Receive and give forgiveness.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I’d hate for emotions to obscure the message so let’s let our Papa speak for himself, and for the Church.
I love St Stephen, who was the original Christian risk taker in the area of forgiveness. I can imagine the stones were heaved just a little harder at his head when he prayed for his offenders.
w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/angelus/2015/documents/papa-francesco_angelus_20151226.html

Is your point that it can be done and has been done on the past. Ok… Fine.