Forgiving, forgetting and purgatory

[Michael_J_Lord]

please help me to reconcile these two points.Mother teresa says that when God forgives he forgets.if God forgives and forgets, why is there Purgatory.I believe in Purgatory and I believe that God does forget when he forgives but am having trouble reconciling these two apparent contradictions.Please help me to connect the dots here.Thank-you.

 

[Michael_J_Lord]

please help me to reconcile these two points.Mother teresa says that when God forgives he forgets.if God forgives and forgets, why is there Purgatory.I believe in Purgatory and I believe that God does forget when he forgives but am having trouble reconciling these two apparent contradictions.Please help me to connect the dots here.Thank-you.

"it takes a lot of love to forgive and a lot of humility to forget"Bl.Teresa of Calcutta.

 

[Scoobyshme]

please help me to reconcile these two points.Mother teresa says that when God forgives he forgets.if God forgives and forgets, why is there Purgatory.I believe in Purgatory and I believe that God does forget when he forgives but am having trouble reconciling these two apparent contradictions.Please help me to connect the dots here.Thank-you.

Well, first of all, let me point out that Mother Teresa, while a Saint, isn’t the Magisterium of the Church. So, her expressions of the faith may or may not be on target, or as well formulated as they should be. That doesn’t detract from her sainthood, though, in any way.

That being said, here’s how the process works:

When we sin, we are due at that time, some temporal punishment, due to justice.

When we repent, go to Confession, and given absolution, we are forgiven our sins, and cannot be sent to hell for the commission of those sins we confessed.

However, we are still due some temporal punishment. The priest gives us penance during our Confession, which may mitigate some or all of our temporal punishment. If it does not, we still “owe” that temporal punishment, because of justice.

Everyone in Purgatory makes it to heaven. That means God has forgiven them their sins. Otherwise, they wouldn’t be able to make it into heaven.

If I had to give a simple example, I would point to an incident I had as a small boy. We were visiting a friend of my father’s. I was playing baseball with the family children, and we were just getting ready to leaven, so I wanted one more at bat. My father cautioned against hitting the ball too hard because I might break a window. I assured him that I couldn’t hit it that far, and swing as hard as I could at the next pitch. Guess what? I could hit it that far, and broke a window! I was sorry, and apologized to Mr. Bob (the owner and family friend). But I still owed him for the window, to satisfy justice. My father paid him for the window and I worked it off cutting grass to pay my father back. Justice was satisfied, even though as soon as I apologized, Mr. Bob forgave me.

 

[FaithfulAndTrue]

Well, first of all, let me point out that Mother Teresa, while a Saint, isn’t the Magisterium of the Church. So, her expressions of the faith may or may not be on target, or as well formulated as they should be. That doesn’t detract from her sainthood, though, in any way.

That being said, here’s how the process works:

When we sin, we are due at that time, some temporal punishment, due to justice.

When we repent, go to Confession, and given absolution, we are forgiven our sins, and cannot be sent to hell for the commission of those sins we confessed.

However, we are still due some temporal punishment. The priest gives us penance during our Confession, which may mitigate some or all of our temporal punishment. If it does not, we still “owe” that temporal punishment, because of justice.

Everyone in Purgatory makes it to heaven. That means God has forgiven them their sins. Otherwise, they wouldn’t be able to make it into heaven.

If I had to give a simple example, I would point to an incident I had as a small boy. We were visiting a friend of my father’s. I was playing baseball with the family children, and we were just getting ready to leaven, so I wanted one more at bat. My father cautioned against hitting the ball too hard because I might break a window. I assured him that I couldn’t hit it that far, and swing as hard as I could at the next pitch. Guess what? I could hit it that far, and broke a window! I was sorry, and apologized to Mr. Bob (the owner and family friend). But I still owed him for the window, to satisfy justice. My father paid him for the window and I worked it off cutting grass to pay my father back. Justice was satisfied, even though as soon as I apologized, Mr. Bob forgave me.

That’s a very understandable analogy because God must be both merciful (to those who ask for his mercy) and just. However, I’m going to disagree with the application of your analogy.

In Jeremiah, the Lord says he will forgive and forget…

“They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” (Jeremiah 31:34)

The satisfaction of justice is the work of Jesus on the cross. He pays the price so we don’t have to. This is why it is forgotten and as God says through Isaiah, “Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow.” (Is 1:18)

 

[FaithfulAndTrue]

If I had to give a simple example, I would point to an incident I had as a small boy. We were visiting a friend of my father’s. I was playing baseball with the family children, and we were just getting ready to leaven, so I wanted one more at bat. My father cautioned against hitting the ball too hard because I might break a window. I assured him that I couldn’t hit it that far, and swing as hard as I could at the next pitch. Guess what? I could hit it that far, and broke a window! I was sorry, and apologized to Mr. Bob (the owner and family friend). But I still owed him for the window, to satisfy justice. My father paid him for the window and I worked it off cutting grass to pay my father back. Justice was satisfied, even though as soon as I apologized, Mr. Bob forgave me.

I was thinking about your analogy some more and I think a better analogy might be this…

You broke Mr. Bob’s window, you apologized for breaking the window, Mr. Bob forgave you, your dad paid him for the window, and let’s pretend your dad didn’t ask you to pay him (your dad) back.

Mr. Bob forgave you and justice was served as your debt was paid by your dad. All you had to do was ask for forgiveness.

In this new analogy…

you = you
Mr. Bob = God
your dad = Jesus

Too bad you actually had to mow those lawns, though.

 

[Scoobyshme]

I was thinking about your analogy some more and I think a better analogy might be this…

You broke Mr. Bob’s window, you apologized for breaking the window, Mr. Bob forgave you, your dad paid him for the window, and let’s pretend your dad didn’t ask you to pay him (your dad) back.

Mr. Bob forgave you and justice was served as your debt was paid by your dad. All you had to do was ask for forgiveness.

In this new analogy…

you = you
Mr. Bob = God
your dad = Jesus

Too bad you actually had to mow those lawns, though.

Had that analogy held, justice would not have been served, meaning that God was not infinitely just. We believe that God is both infinitely merciful, and infinitely just.

 

[FaithfulAndTrue]

Had that analogy held, justice would not have been served, meaning that God was not infinitely just. We believe that God is both infinitely merciful, and infinitely just.

Why wouldn’t justice have been served? Your dad would have paid your debt.

 

[Scoobyshme]

That’s a very understandable analogy because God must be both merciful (to those who ask for his mercy) and just. However, I’m going to disagree with the application of your analogy.

In Jeremiah, the Lord says he will forgive and forget…

The satisfaction of justice is the work of Jesus on the cross. He pays the price so we don’t have to. This is why it is forgotten and as God says through Isaiah, “Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow.” (Is 1:18)

All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. This is because unless they are perfect they will not enter heaven because in the book of Revelation 21:27 St John Says “Nothing unclean shall enter it” (referring to heaven).

In order to properly interpret Scripture, we must follow the following three principles:

1. We must read Scripture as a whole, in context, rather than in snippets, taken out of context. Scripture is one of the two main methods of transmission of the Word of God to mankind. The Word of God is not a book. It is a Person, Jesus Christ. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (John 1:1) Jesus is a united whole.
2. We must read Scripture in light of Sacred Tradition (a.k.a., Oral Tradition spoken of by St. Paul in 2 Thes. 2:15). When Jesus walked the earth, He taught orally and by example. He wrote no books, nor did He tell anyone else to write books, as far as we know. This makes sense, when you consider that it’s only been in the last 100 years or so that universal literacy has come into the world. Before that, the vast majority of humanity could neither read nor write. Anyway, Jesus commanded those He taught (the Apostles) to go forth and teach likewise (see Matt. 28:20), which they did to their successors, the bishops, for almost 2000 years now. SOME of what they taught was written down. This we call the New Testament. Much was not written down, however. (See John 21:25).
3. We must read Scripture in light of the teachings of the living teaching authority established by Jesus, the Magisterium of the Church. The Magisterium consists of the successor of Peter and the Apostles, i.e., the Pope and the bishops in union with him. These men, not through any power of their own, have the Apostolic kerygma, i.e., they have a special gift of the Holy Spirit to guide them in explaining the faith.

Without being faithful to this approach, you end up with what Protestantism has become: literally thousands of man-made, doctrinally contradicting denominations, leading to much error and confusion. Just look at all the many demoninations that have been formed since the Protestant Reformation in 1517 A.D.! (and counting)

 

[Scoobyshme]

Why wouldn’t justice have been served? Your dad would have paid your debt.

Because justice must somehow involve me. Can you imagine what a brat I would’ve turned out to be if my dad bailed me out every time I disobeyed or ignored his counsel, with no repercussions on my part?! LOL

 

[FaithfulAndTrue]

Because justice must somehow involve me. Can you imagine what a brat I would’ve turned out to be if my dad bailed me out every time I disobeyed or ignored his counsel, with no repercussions on my part?! LOL

Why must justice involve you? Mr. Bob is made whole again, isn’t he?

If we must still pay the debt in full, then what is the purpose of Jesus’ sacrifice? Because in your analogy, he is at best a creditor that pays on our behalf but expects reimbursement.

 

[FaithfulAndTrue]

All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. This is because unless they are perfect they will not enter heaven because in the book of Revelation 21:27 St John Says “Nothing unclean shall enter it” (referring to heaven).

This is the only portion of your post that I will address since the interpretation of scripture is a completely different, and likely unresolvable, topic of which we are both likely to know the arguments for and against each position.

But in regards to Rev 21:27, you will not be unclean. You will be white as snow due to Jesus having paid your debt (Heb 2:17; Rom 3:24-25). Now, I certainly don’t mean to “take anything out of context” so feel free to read the entire book of Hebrews and/or Romans.

 

[PJM]

=Michael J Lord;8458501]please help me to reconcile these two points.Mother teresa says that when God forgives he forgets.if God forgives and forgets, why is there Purgatory.I believe in Purgatory and I believe that God does forget when he forgives but am having trouble reconciling these two apparent contradictions.Please help me to connect the dots here.Thank-you.

Hi Michalel,

What your missing is 1. How totally and greatly God abhores ALL sin; and 2. the FACT that sin always has a “payback” factor attached to in that extends beyond the sin itself and goes to the root of the sin and it’s natural [and God applied unatural effects]. Sin always has a humand effect aspect that requires in God’s Justice a repayment or the consequenes of our sins.

For example: Steal money; confess it and you’ll be advised that it MUST in some way be repaid. Ruin someones good reputation and you’ll be advised that you must endeavor to as much as possible to restore that persons good name. Commit adultry and you’ll be advides to 1. end the affair; 2. to make it right with your spouce; three make it right with the person with whom the affair was conducted.

Sin is NOT only personal. It always effects others such as the church [by poor example], the injured party [and those aware of the injury], and also society in general as it sets a bad example for others who may choose to use as justification for there own sin.

It is this necessary pay-back for our sins that prayers, sacrifices, charity, indulgences, and purgatory have a very important and necessary role.

**Rev. 21: 27 **“But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

**Mt. 5: 26 **truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

Heb. 2: 10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.

So Forgiveness through Catholic Cnfession is the manner Christ Himself COMMANDS for all sins to be fogiven. [JOHN 20:19-23] And Yes it REMAINS Jesis Himself who does the actual forgiving. And YES; once forginess is GRANTED **through the priest **BY JESUS; ones sins are forgotten. BUT the effects of those sins too MUST be addressed and taken care of before one is perfected and granted access into heaven.

This is God’s Fair and Just command.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[TimothyH]

All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. This is because unless they are perfect they will not enter heaven because in the book of Revelation 21:27 St John Says “Nothing unclean shall enter it” (referring to heaven).

I too will disagree that Purgatory is punishment for sin.

Your statement above is exactly correct because it is taken verbatim from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of Heaven. (CCC 1030)

Purgatory is not punishment, but purification - cleansing - and this is completely different from punishment as stated in the very next article of the Catechism.

The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. (From CCC 1031)

Purgatory is closely related to the doctrine of mortal and venial sin. Mortal sin breaks God’s covenant. That is why it demands punishment in Hell. Venial sin does not break God’s covenant and so it does not demand punishment in Hell. We see this in Jesus teaching on varying degrees of sin, or what seems to be a relative severity of sin in Matthew’s Gospel.

But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, “You fool!” shall be liable to the Hell of fire. (Matthew 5:22, NRSV-CE)

St. Francis de Sales noted that the first two types of sin leave one open to judgement of either the civil judges or the supreme Jewish council (Sanhedrin), but the third type of sin opens one up to immediatel punishment in Hell.

If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly. (1 John 5:16-17)

Jesus’ best friend backs up the idea of mortal and venial sin laid out by our Lord when he teaches about sin that is deadly and sin that is not deadly. Deadly sin - mortal - requires punishment in the “Hell of fire” while venial sin - not deadly - does not demand immediate punishment in hell but it does leave one open to the judgment of God.

This creates a giant loophole for someone who commits a sin which does not break the covenant, a sin which does not warrant punishment in hell. Such a one is still stained with sin and so cannot get into heaven, as you have rightly pointed out, based on the fact that “Nothing unclean will enter it.” (cf Revelation 21:27).

Where does one who committed non deadly venial sin go if they cannot go to heaven because they are stained with sin yet their sin does not warrant Hell? Thanks be to God for Purgatory? Such a one can be purified of that venial sin, and perfected by the purifying fires, so that they can enter heaven.

No, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering, and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect (Hebrews 12:22-23)*

Paul speaks of the same “Heavenly Jerusalem” which nothing unclean can enter, about which John wrote about in Revelation 21. And Paul tells us about the “spirits of the just made perfect.” These are spirits (dead) of men who are just, but they have been purified (made perfect) so that they can enter the Heavenly Jerusalem.

Given Jesus own teaching about a relative gradation or severity of sin, and John’s teaching about deadly/non-deadly sin, and the teaching in Revelation which clearly says that nothing unclean can enter heaven, a theology with only Heaven and Hell doesn’t make sense. Only a theology with purgatory makes sense, and purgatory is a purification and cleansing of the sin of pride, self love. Punishment however, is reserved for hell.

-Tim-