Forgiving the Unrepentant

[Kensho]

Thanks, Litcrit.

Ach, my mother loved me. Loads of yucky, yucky, disgusting, clingy, smothering, possessive, accusatory love. I don’t want her love, and I don’t want to give her any love.

You are right about not snapping. In a way you have to treat personality disordered people as children – now I remember what I meant 20 years ago when I said I never wanted children because I had already raised one.

 

[SlackerCatholic]

Using you as her personal emotional release valve is not the same as loving you.

 

[mayxanh]

From my own experiences being able to forgive helps me, it is not necessary for the other person to feel remorse. **To forgive is to set a prisoner free and to see that prisoner is me. **

When you forgive you are still left with that feeling of injustice that can never be put right on this Earth, maybe we leave it in God’s hands to put everything right. But we are asked to pray for our enemies and we might remember how Christ prayed for his enemies on the cross, Forgive them Father for they know not what they do.

 

[Litcrit]

Thanks, Litcrit.

Ach, my mother loved me. Loads of yucky, yucky, disgusting, clingy, smothering, possessive, accusatory love. I don’t want her love, and I don’t want to give her any love.

You are right about not snapping. In a way you have to treat personality disordered people as children – now I remember what I meant 20 years ago when I said I never wanted children because I had already raised one.

That’s not love. Love does not make you feel that way. My narcissistic parents and grandparents sometimes engaged in icky protestations of love, while their actions and body language towards me said differently. It was very liberating to realize that *that *wasn’t love. I’d grown up to distrust love and not really believe it exists.

*This *is love:

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. (1 Cor 13: 4-8)

That’s what God gives you and that’s what your parents should have as well.

Using you as her personal emotional release valve is not the same as loving you.

Exactly.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

There has been a particular Catholic nursing home she wanted to go to, but I spoke to a social worker there and found out that her behavior toward the employees there had been so aggressive and rude that her application was moved to the bottom of the stack! That may sound like bad news, but it actually made me feel so much better. It was confirmation that it’s NOT just me – everyone who has to deal with her on more than a casual level finds her difficult!

I understand what you mean, it really is a confirmation that you are not the problem or that you are making it up. (I swear, what hurts me most in my situation is when people try to convince me that I am exaggerating things.) Having a confirmation that the person in question is a nightmare to deal with does bring a sense of relief. I’m glad that you got that and also pray that you find a different nursing home soon.

It sounds like you have an idea on what not to do at this point, ie. not snap at your family. They are your refuge, the source of love, so always keep that in mind, even when you feel upset for whatever reason. You must stick together in this situation.

I guess for now it is a question of sticking it out and keeping your sanity. When she moves out things will be much easier. Hang in there.

 

[mayxanh]

Thanks, Litcrit.

Ach, my mother loved me. Loads of yucky, yucky, disgusting, clingy, smothering, possessive, accusatory love. I don’t want her love, and I don’t want to give her any love.

You are right about not snapping. In a way you have to treat personality disordered people as children – now I remember what I meant 20 years ago when I said I never wanted children because I had already raised one.

Kensho,

I am in your shoes too. My mother used to treat and is treating me badly and hurt me a lot. When I was small, I used to foster hateful feelings toward her. But I got to understand her more and feel compassionate for her as soon as I became mother myself.

Moreover, you mention that your mother may have some mental disorders. If this is the case, her actions, her harsh words/feelings toward you may be out of her conscience. Thus, she deserves to be loved and compassionate than complained.

The following passage will help us to overcome our hatred and bitterness toward our mother.

Jesus and the Woman Taken in Adultery
John 8:1-11

*1Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

2And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

3And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

4They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.*

 

[Kensho]

I’m the opposite of you, maxyahn; I adored my mother and thought she was perfect when I was a child, and motherhood has opened my eyes to her monstrous self-absorbtion.

I agree that mental illness lessens culpability, but it doesn’t remove it entirely. She still knows right from wrong and is able to make people see her as a sweet old lady, which shows that she knows how to behave if she cares to. She has also repeatedly refused professional help, even when it was my father who asked her to go with him. It seems to me that she is responsible for her choices in the same way that an older child is.

Even if her culpability were entirely removed by her illness, she would be like a poisonous snake. I don’t hate snakes. I let them be unless they are actively posing a threat. I certainly don’t blame them for being poisonous. I also am not going to try to love them or give them opportunities to bite me.

I can’t agree that it would be helpful for me to release her from all responsibility for the enormous damage she has done to her family while I dwell some more on my own sins. I’ve been so marinated in a sense of guilt already that I apologize when I bump into furniture!

I have pity for her and every intention of treating her well. I do not want to feel love for her – or anger, or hatred, or really much of anything. What I’m looking for is help on detaching from feelings.

 

[Litcrit]

I’m the opposite of you, maxyahn; I adored my mother and thought she was perfect when I was a child, and motherhood has opened my eyes to her monstrous self-absorbtion.

I agree that mental illness lessens culpability, but it doesn’t remove it entirely. She still knows right from wrong and is able to make people see her as a sweet old lady, which shows that she knows how to behave if she cares to. She has also repeatedly refused professional help, even when it was my father who asked her to go with him. It seems to me that she is responsible for her choices in the same way that an older child is.

Even if her culpability were entirely removed by her illness, she would be like a poisonous snake. I don’t hate snakes. I let them be unless they are actively posing a threat. I certainly don’t blame them for being poisonous. I also am not going to try to love them or give them opportunities to bite me.

I can’t agree that it would be helpful for me to release her from all responsibility for the enormous damage she has done to her family while I dwell some more on my own sins. I’ve been so marinated in a sense of guilt already that I apologize when I bump into furniture!

I have pity for her and every intention of treating her well. I do not want to feel love for her – or anger, or hatred, or really much of anything. What I’m looking for is help on detaching from feelings.

Great points. I was also required to see my parents as ideal while growing up and also saw my childhood through completely different eyes once I became a mother myself.

Becoming more aware of my father’s specific problem - narcissistic personality disorder - helped me detach from anger and hurt feelings in dealings with him. I knew he was unable to see me as a real person and anything he said or did to me was not about myself or my children, but only about himself. I learned to manage him.

Later, very recently, I’ve started to have some sort of compassion for him too - or, rather, the child he used to be before his own horrible narcissistic parents shaped him into who he is now.

 

[mommamaree]

Thank you for this thread. It is helping me greatly as I read about the experience of others who have been abused by parents with personality disorders. Makes me remember I am not a crazy little liar who is just mean to my mother.
I needed that sanity check right now. Thank you.

 

[mayxanh]

Let me share my own story. My mother was abandoned by my father when she has got pregnant (of me) for 2 months. Afterwards, she could hardly find a right man to marry. So, she blamed all of her failure in her romantic life on me by ignoring or abusing verbally.

When I was small, I used to foster bitter and hateful feelings towards her. However, as time passed, I realized that** God want me to forgive and love her just as the way He loves me and forgives me**. I was struck by this passage:

*Matthew 5:43-44: Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Matthew 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

I have *only one mother ** and I did not have a chance to choose the right mother for me. This mother has been given to me by God and He wants me to learn to how to love unconditionally. Of course, it is initially very hard for me to accept but I started working and I am still working on that. I still hope that one day, I am able to love my mother just as the way Jesus loves me and sacrifies His life for me.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I have **only one mother ** and I did not have a chance to choose the right mother for me. This mother has been given to me by God and He wants me to learn to how to love unconditionally. Of course, it is initially very hard for me to accept but I started working and I am still working on that. I still hope that one day, I am able to love my mother just as the way Jesus loves me and sacrifies His life for me.

I get this kind of ‘wisdom’ from a well meaning friend who is desperately trying to make things work with her own mother. I always reply that God did not intend for me to be abused by my parent. I’m sorry my father is messed up but I don’t have a duty to put up with his nastiness and abuse because of his personality disorder. That is not what the 4th commandment is about, believe it or not. People have ways of trying to understand and deal with painful situations in their lives. Some obsessively quote the Bible. I wonder if such an approach is really helpful to the OP in her circumstances.

 

[mayxanh]

I get this kind of ‘wisdom’ from a well meaning friend who is desperately trying to make things work with her own mother. I always reply that God did not intend for me to be abused by my parent. I’m sorry my father is messed up but I don’t have a duty to put up with his nastiness and abuse because of his personality disorder. That is not what the 4th commandment is about, believe it or not. People have ways of trying to understand and deal with painful situations in their lives. Some obsessively quote the Bible. I wonder if such an approach is really helpful to the OP in her circumstances.

I totally agree with you. It’s very hard to deal with people with mental/psychological disorders. I cannot put up with my mother’s nastiness. I cannot live with her in the same roof too because she will cause harm to my family’s mental health.

But what I am inspired from God is the compassionate feelings through communions and prayers. For me, this is still a goal that I have not yet fully attained.

You don’t think this approach is helpful to the OP, probably because you don’t believe in the power of prayers.** We cannot change people, more specifically our parents. But God can and He will provided we are willing to cooperate through prayers.**

Believe or not, prayers are also the best way to relieve the OP from any frustration and uneasy feelings.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Do you realise that the topic of this thread is about coping with an abusive parent on day to day basis? The OP asked for advice how to do that. She did not ask for advice on how to deal with her feelings, and did not ask for our opinion about what she should feel. I very much believe in prayer and believe that is the only thing that can truly help us heal. I just don’t see any of that in your Bible verses on sin and supposed need to tolerate abuse in family in the name of love and forgivness that you seem to suggest. Maybe I’ve just missed the point. However, this thread is not about you or me, so I’ll end my discussion with you right here.

 

[Kensho]

I am truly grateful to everyone who has taken the time to respond whether I find their words helpful or not, and I want to apologize if any frustration comes out in my tone and seems to be directed at anyone here. I am frustrated by my situation, the nuances of which are difficult to explain in brief.

That said, I must strongly disagree with the concept of having unconditional love for a parent. Parents are supposed to love their children unconditionally. Because of the things thoughtless people (and my mother) said to me when I was a child, I beat myself up for years that I was not able to love my parents unconditionally, and then one day I realized that it was not possible for me to love my parents that way when they were not modeling such love for me. It would be like plopping an infant who is still saying ma-ma da-da down in front of her parents and sternly telling her that they don’t have very good grammar and that it is her job to teach them.

Of course, I still tend to beat myself up for my insufficient love because intellectual realizations don’t seem to cure me of longstanding feelings. Now, any suggestions for how to get more out of intellectual realizations would be most appreciated …

Actually, the kind of love you describe, mayxahn, sounds like what God prescribed for married couples. I am already married, and my husband is going to come first from now on. I’m not going to give my mother first place because God says she shouldn’t have it. I spent my childhood and especially my adolescence being my mother’s pretend boyfriend, and that was bad enough – I’m not going to go there again.

Compassion? I had loads of compassion for my mother at one time, really damaging compassion. I told my mother – and meant it – that I would commit perjury for her. That I would go to Hell for her – can you believe that? Forgive me, but I’m burnt out on feelings in her regard. What would be nice is if I could feel some compassion for myself.

 

[SlackerCatholic]

I get this kind of ‘wisdom’ from a well meaning friend who is desperately trying to make things work with her own mother. I always reply that God did not intend for me to be abused by my parent. I’m sorry my father is messed up but I don’t have a duty to put up with his nastiness and abuse because of his personality disorder. That is not what the 4th commandment is about, believe it or not. People have ways of trying to understand and deal with painful situations in their lives. Some obsessively quote the Bible. I wonder if such an approach is really helpful to the OP in her circumstances.

:clapping:

 

[mayxanh]

Kensho,

I am heard that nursing home are pretty expensive, especially one with quality. If your mom does not have good pension, she may not be able to pay for it. Inexpensive or subsidized nursing homes usually have long waiting list.

Can you find a suitable nursing home for your mom?

I just one to share my own story and how I find some light at the end of the tunnel to get relief for my frustration. As I emphasize, I still have to continue to work on it. I have not 100% forgiven my mom.

You may be luckier than me. I was not only abused by my mom, but also by my step dad who attempted to sexually assault me a few time but failed just because the circumtances were not favorable for him. At that time, I still lived in my original country, underage, financially dependent on my mom, unprotected by the government. I did not have the option to leave my mom’s house.

If any of you feel my story inappropriate then I am sorry, and you just ignore it.

 

[Kensho]

Kensho,

You may be luckier than me.

I doubt it. But it doesn’t matter.

 

[Litcrit]

I must strongly disagree with the concept of having unconditional love for a parent. Parents are supposed to love their children unconditionally. Because of the things thoughtless people (and my mother) said to me when I was a child, I beat myself up for years that I was not able to love my parents unconditionally, and then one day I realized that it was not possible for me to love my parents that way when they were not modeling such love for me. It would be like plopping an infant who is still saying ma-ma da-da down in front of her parents and sternly telling her that they don’t have very good grammar and that it is her job to teach them.

Precisely. I owe my children my unconditional love, and, interestingly enough, whenever I seem to slip into “my parents weren’t that bad” and “they did their best, I’m sure” I also slip in my parenting. It’s like I can choose to either push down on my children like I was pushed down on, or I can push back, if only mentally, and relieve my children of this pressure.

Of course, I still tend to beat myself up for my insufficient love because intellectual realizations don’t seem to cure me of longstanding feelings. Now, any suggestions for how to get more out of intellectual realizations would be most appreciated …

What would be nice is if I could feel some compassion for myself.

That was the one thing that could help me. Feeling compassion for the child I once was. It’s still sometimes difficult not to think I’m somehow fundamentally unlovable.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Of course, I still tend to beat myself up for my insufficient love because intellectual realizations don’t seem to cure me of longstanding feelings. Now, any suggestions for how to get more out of intellectual realizations would be most appreciated …

What would be nice is if I could feel some compassion for myself.

OP,

I’ve been thinking about your situation and have been praying for you. I think you will be fine, but it will take time to heal. In one of your previous posts you have explained how you see your relationship with your mother and what you expect from it. It sounds you see the situation in a clear way, and that is a really important thing. (It took me many years to wake up from denial. I guess certain things become obvious when we become parents ourselves.) Detachment develops over time and I think that physical distance from that person is really important. When your mother moves out things will change. Your feelings will not dissappear over night but they will gradually become less difficult to bear.

As for feeling compassion for yourself, maybe this is something you have to learn now. Try saying things out loud in front of a mirror. I know this probably sounds silly, but it has been suggested to me by a councelor and it helped. I would say things like: “I am worth a lot. I am God’s precious child. I suffered when I was little and He suffered with me. I am not a bad person for feeling this way. I have been hurt.” You get the idea. This exercise helped me see myself in a different way - not as I was always defined by my father (difficult, impossible to love, that something was fundamentally wrong with me, that I was his possession, etc.) You are feeling a certain way because you have been taught to feel that way. You can unlearn that like you can unlearn some bad habits. Think of your negative feelings towards yourself just as that: bad habits. With God’s help you can be set free. Just trust Him and move forward, even if it is just baby steps.

Another thing that was really crucial for me to start detaching and healing was not discussing my situation with people who don’t understand. Friends want to help but those people who have not experienced something like this will probably not be able to understand what you have experienced, and their advice might come across as naive but sweet at best, and self righteous BS at worst. When I stopped explaining and justifying myself to other people I became stronger and stopped doubting myself all the time.

I hope this has helped a bit.

 

[Kensho]

All right – I need to revive this thread. Sigh.

Yesterday evening I was sitting in the living room with my mother working on a project. I have some visual processing problems and doing certain kinds of work that involve spatial relations or being able to picture abstract things is very, very, very difficult for me – so I was having problems with my project and was getting frustrated. My mother started talking about my visual problem, and I can’t remember what she said but by then I was on the verge of tears and blurted out bitterly that I had been yelled at and punished and told I wasn’t trying all my life for all the things I couldn’t do because of the way I see. She said, “I don’t think I ever did that,” and I didn’t say anything, I couldn’t say anything, but it wasn’t true. She was constantly on me, taking away everything I enjoyed and was good at to punish me for my struggles, and she has never acknowledged it even now that she acknowledges that I probably have an undiagnosed learning disability or neurological disorder. She blames everyone else for how I was treated but has never mentioned her contribution to it. And I let her get away with it. I have never confronted her with anything, and missing the opportunity to say something about it last night made me feel even worse about myself. I didn’t have to be mean. I could have just said matter-of-factly that she was hard on me and did and said things that made my life harder. Why can’t I say it?