Forgotten... :-(

[Discerning_Life]

WHY DO SAINTS WANT TO BE FORGOTTEN???

Sorry, but I have been struggling with that idea for a long time.
I’m probably in the wrong forum, but can someone try to answer this question?
Both St. John of the Cross and St. Therese of Lisieux wanted to be forgotten. In other words, they wanted to be saints but not Saints.

I am discerning to join a religious order that does not allow their sisters to become Saints. I find this very discouraging. I admit, I have many flaws–including ambitiousness, pride, and many other things. Everyone wants to be remembered. Everyone wants to make a difference.

I’m having a lot of difficulty with this theological idea. After you explain why they want this, can you help me understand what I need to do to be open to being forgotten. I find it terribly difficult to accept. I’m aware that majority of the people on this world WILL be forgotten, but something inside of me has always told me I was special…as I’m sure with everyone else. Everyone believes they’ll be great, but life often works out the opposite way.

Discerning religious life is definitely going to lead to an obscure, forgotten life. Please help me overcome this reality.

~Discerning Life

 

[LoyalViews]

Humility, my dear Watson.

That’s what I think.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

This is an excellent question.

John Paul II directed that his own personal papers be burned, but of course they were not because his survivors wanted to keep them to look for evidence to make him a saint. In other words, we do not respect the wishes of our past pope, while the body is practically still warm, because we want to make him a Saint. Guess he should have burned them himself – unless he secretly wanted to become a Saint anyway?

Christian singer/songwriter Rich Mullins used to say he found it troubling that people knew the words to his songs but not to the Bible. He said it isn’t about him, but about Jesus.

I look at it like a dog that I had that was too stupid to fetch the stick. I would throw the stick, but he was too busy looking at my hand to see that I had thrown it. In this case it’s about watching the messenger rather than the message.

So to me, there are a few risks to becoming a saint, not the least of which is to receive honor you never would have accepted in your lifetime, and to have whatever you really wanted to have happen diluted by people looking toward you instead of following the path you have carved.

Alan

 

[jmcrae]

WHY DO SAINTS WANT TO BE FORGOTTEN???

Probably so that the good things they do can continue to have an effect without being hindered by the flaws in their personalities and any sins they may have committed in their youth.

How much more effective would the teachings of St. Augustine be, for example, if they were simply listed in the Catechism without attribution, and without everyone knowing that he was such a wild sinner when he was a young man?

There actually are people who say, “Well, yes, St. Augustine did say that, but keep in mind, he objectified women and had a bad relationship with his mother - so how smart could he really be?” Just because he’s a Doctor of the Church.

If he were forgotten, his teachings would have to stand on their own - is this a good idea, or not? With no personality or history to cloud it.

 

[Bearontherun]

This current life is passing quickly away. No one in the Kingdom of Heaven will be “obscure or forgotten.”

I think it would help you to think ahead to eternity and not be concerned about being well known in this life (or by those remaining after your time on earth is done).

 

[marty1818]

Consider the fact that everything the saints do on earth and in heaven is for the greater glory of God. They do nothing on their own and it is only through God that they are able to do the great things they do. In their great humility they are aware of this and would prefer that all the glory is given to God and not them, and being forgotten is a good way of making sure this happens.

 

[Luvtosew]

Yes I think everyone is special in their own way.

I just think there is something in the Bible about doing good deeds in secret, like if you dontate money don’t go telling someone as Your Father in heaven sees you, but to tell people is like saying , hey I’m a good guy pat me on the back.

I don’t think Saints set out to become Saints do they? I mean that is not their end goal
right?

 

[Bob_Crowley]

WHY DO SAINTS WANT TO BE FORGOTTEN???

… Everyone wants to make a difference…

I’m having a lot of difficulty with this theological idea. After you explain why they want this, can you help me understand what I need to do to be open to being forgotten. I find it terribly difficult to accept. I’m aware that majority of the people on this world WILL be forgotten, but something inside of me has always told me I was special…as I’m sure with everyone else. Everyone believes they’ll be great, but life often works out the opposite way.

Discerning religious life is definitely going to lead to an obscure, forgotten life. Please help me overcome this reality.

~Discerning Life

I think what’s really bugging you is that you really want to make a difference.

If you achieve something worthwhile, you will find it easier to take an attitude of “being forgotten”, as you will have achieved something of eternal value.

What worries you is the business of “being forgotten” as just one more of the unknown billions throughout history. This is also why my old Protestant pastor had the opinion that the closest philosophical concept to Christianity is Existentialism. As he put it, "…

most people exist, and that’s about it".

He himself is “forgotten” in the worldly sense, except by his own family and those who knew him directly, and of course I keep bringing him up in the sense of some of his sayings and prophecies on this forum. Other than that he’s virtually unknown.

But I think the day he died, he got a pretty good report card from the Almighty.

The fact is of course the saints are “not forgotten”, even if they wanted to be, or you wouldn’t be quoting them.

What you need to do is to ignore this line of thinking, and ask God directly to tell you **what He wants you to do. ** Once you find that out, this business of worrying about being “forgotten” will recede into the background. I think what’s really bugging you is finding out what God specifically wants you to do.

 

[HonoraDominum]

The less there is of You in You, the more room there is for God. If you have self-love, attached to things of this world and not focused on God, then you will never make it to Him fully because you are keeping part of You to yourself and not giving it to Him. To want to do great things for His glory is noble, but most important is doing what God’s will is for you.

Little Thérèse became a saint, but I don’t know how much you know about her sister Leonie. Most people have never heard of Leonie. Of the five Martin sisters, four became Carmelites. But Leonie felt called to be a Visitation sister. So she went to the convent. Then came home. Then went to the convent, and then came home. This happened four times before it finally stuck and she spent the remainder of her years at the Visitation convent. But her sister Thérèse was master of the spiritual concept of Humble Confidence, and as her spiritual director, Leonie learned much about this concept from the great Carmelite saint. When Thérèse was canonized, Leonie often had visitors at her convent looking for the sister of Thérèse. But she was having none of that.

"When a certain priest asked to see Sr. Francoise-Therese, Leonie replied, “I’ll ask our Mother Superior, but I do not believe that such a thing is possible. I am very sorry to disappoint you, Father, but I assure you that you are missing nothing. That sister is not worth the trouble.” Astonished by such a reply he left without a word. When he mentioned the incident to the convent chaplain, he was told, “My poor Father, you have been tricked - you were talking to Leonie herself” The priest’s shock was transformed into edification of Leonie’s humility.

Her greatest honor was serving in assisting with tasks of the altar - she ironed altar linens until she was 73. But in this littleness, in this nothingness, she became holy and pious, and learned to live within God’s will for her. This was a prayer of Leonie’s on the eve of her profession - “My God, do in me what You will; let me be good and charitable even to excess, so that I may follow my Therese’s example in practicing Your new commandment. Act in me and for me, I beg of You, in this difficult venture; for I have every reason to fear my great weakness which has betrayed me so often. My Jesus, my faith in You is all the greater because I am so small and so worthless.”

Is Leonie famous? Not really, not except for being the sister of a saint. Did she do great things? Not really, there’s not even a book of her memoirs, just gathered letters between her and her sisters. But she loved God, and she did everything she could to love Him. In that love, she lost her self and became nothing but love for God.

That’s what I see when I hear the phrase of being “little, nothing”.

 

[the_phoenix]

This reminds me of a story I heard about the Carthusian Order.

One of the Carthusian monks died, so another monk went out onto the monastery burial grounds to dig a hole and bury him. Suddenly, the shovel hit something soft in the dirt … turned out to be the incorrupt body of a monk buried many years before.

The monk immediately ran to his superior with the news, “Saint! We have a saint! I’ve just discovered an incorrupt body in our graveyard where I was going to bury the one who just died. What should we do?”

The elder Carthusian mildly responded, “Cover the monk you discovered back up, and dig a new burial hole to his left.”

…

 

[Discerning_Life]

I think what’s really bugging you is that you really want to make a difference.

If you achieve something worthwhile, you will find it easier to take an attitude of “being forgotten”, as you will have achieved something of eternal value.

What worries you is the business of “being forgotten” as just one more of the unknown billions throughout history. …

The fact is of course the saints are “not forgotten”, even if they wanted to be, or you wouldn’t be quoting them.

What you need to do is to ignore this line of thinking, and ask God directly to tell you **what He wants you to do. ** Once you find that out, this business of worrying about being “forgotten” will recede into the background. I think what’s really bugging you is finding out what God specifically wants you to do.

Ahhh…thank you Bob Crowley. This helps me a lot. I’m a high school senior who is heading onto college, and I have no idea what to do with my life. You’re right. I do just want to do something that has “eternal value.” Perhaps I’m just waiting to do something with meaning to give my life a direction. I think its awesome that you told me to ignore it for the time being; that’s basically the very opposite thing of what everyone said. Wow. Very deep insight. Thank you.

As for everyone else, you’ve all been a huge help. Thanks for giving me for information on Leonie, HonoraDominum. I knew a little bit about her before, but that’s a wonderful quote. the phoenix, apparently the Carthusians are of the same mindset. Do you know the purpose behind their not attempting to canonize members of their order?

Haha, I noticed a thread of humility coming through all your words. Agreed, I would need a lot of that to be a Saint. Do you know of a store where I can buy some? (haha)

Alan, thank you for the very pragmatic view of Sainthood. Often the message of the Saint is forgotten when everyone is focusing on that very person. JPII, I believe was letting God’s will decide whether or not he should be a Saint. He was letting God’s providence
take over as he died–giving God the option to make him a Saint or a saint.

Bearontherun, thank you for that eternal insight. True, everyone needs to know that this life does not last long, but the second is forever. However, it is very difficult to get in that mindset, isn’t it?

Thank you all for your comments. They all offer me some very good topic for reflection.
~Discerning Life