Former Catholic Priest Condemns the Catholic Church and Scott Hahn

[thecoach]

For the same reason that I tell people again and again…there is such a thing as objective truth and when discovered it does indeed invalidate false teachings and beliefs.

If the fundamental doctrine of your belief system is Sola Scriptura then in fact you have to suspect every doctrine that has trickled down from that essential error.

Since SS is indeed unscriptural itself, then there is a house of cards of doctrines of men upon which they are founded that also collapses. That’s the way truth and logic works…

hmmm…interesting take…how is SS unscriptural? I do appreciate how you are trying to approach this logically though

 

[Church_Militant]

I have found what I am looking for.

Sounds like a reverse of an U2 song, but then I can make that same statement, still the Holy Spirit will blow where He will…

I have no ax to grind but to speak what I feel is true, and to challenge what I feel is not, I guess just like everyone else here.

Which is fine so far as it goes, but I would have made that same statement some 30+ years ago and now it has proved very wrong.

As for challenging…If you open your beliefs to challenge the Catholic faith, then expect that same response from guys like me. I left too…but I know what the truth is now. I’m Catholic because it’s real, it’s true, and I find the living Lord Jesus Christ there. I feel sorry for you that you have missed this, but then I pray for all the enemies of our holy faith every day.

Lets just say I had some questions about core Church teachings for a long time, but would speak to priests and get very poor answers.

Yeah well…ain’t nobody perfect. Maybe you didn’t sit down and tell them that you were being evangelized away from the faith by well intentioned people with Bibles (like I was). Or maybe you needed to find a Catholic friend like me who has weathered the things you were dealing with.

So I would bury myself in study of the Catechism and other sources of Church teachings. There came a time that I faced the questions head on through prayer and meditation, and well, the rest is history.

Yeah well, something sure went wrong. I find the catechism to be the best Bible study and the most eloquent presentation of Christian doctrine around.

Also, to be quite blunt, what I saw representative on this board also was a small factor.

Well then I guess you haven’t spent much time on the n-C/a-C forums then have you because these folks here at CAF are like a warm hug and a breath of fresh air compared to the ones I have been on. I post very rarely on any but one that is owned by a friend of mine who is an n-C and a member here at CAF. I treasure her faith and friendship dearly. (Anyone who wants a link to her forum which could use some support, just PM me.)

I honestly dont think I can ever go back, having the realizations I now do.

That is of course your own decision and like all of us you will account to God for it if wrong. However, I submit that you are being taught gross errors and that you rather desperately need to check what you are believing before you burn any bridges…

Perhaps I should back off of this board a bit, in giving it thought, nothing will be accomplished here.

It’s always easiest to just give up…

I will answer depending on what I feel your intent in asking is, and based on what I see so far, you seem to want confrontation more than understanding. If Im wrong, tell me and we can dialog.

If you want to do that then you need to open a different thread and take the one doctrine that stands out most to you and deal with that until resolved and then take on another in a new thread. That’s how to get answers if you really want them…

The sketch I outlined was but a nutshell. I have and continue to study the Bible in depth. I also, at the time, studied apologetics. What religion exactly am I making up now? That portrayed by Jesus in Sacred Scripture? Are you on of those that think anything else other than the RCC is not valid? All other interetations are wrong if not from the RCC? THAT is a problem for me.

Then you have a problem, but until I was willing to follow wherever the Holy Spirit led no matter what, then I pretty much chased my tail in circles.

Every challenge against the Catholic faith has been answered in my own life and experience. That’s WHY I am a Catholic.

 

[thecoach]

Sounds like a reverse of an U2 song, but then I can make that same statement, still the Holy Spirit will blow where He will… Which is fine so far as it goes, but I would have made that same statement some 30+ years ago and now it has proved very wrong.

As for challenging…If you open your beliefs to challenge the Catholic faith, then expect that same response from guys like me. I left too…but I know what the truth is now. I’m Catholic because it’s real, it’s true, and I find the living Lord Jesus Christ there. I feel sorry for you that you have missed this, but then I pray for all the enemies of our holy faith every day.Yeah well…ain’t nobody perfect. Maybe you didn’t sit down and tell them that you were being evangelized away from the faith by well intentioned people with Bibles (like I was). Or maybe you needed to find a Catholic friend like me who has weathered the things you were dealing with.Yeah well, something sure went wrong. I find the catechism to be the best Bible study and the most eloquent presentation of Christian doctrine around. Well then I guess you haven’t spent much time on the n-C/a-C forums then have you because these folks here at CAF are like a warm hug and a breath of fresh air compared to the ones I have been on. I post very rarely on any but one that is owned by a friend of mine who is an n-C and a member here at CAF. I treasure her faith and friendship dearly. (Anyone who wants a link to her forum which could use some support, just PM me.)
That is of course your own decision and like all of us you will account to God for it if wrong. However, I submit that you are being taught gross errors and that you rather desperately need to check what you are believing before you burn any bridges…It’s always easiest to just give up… If you want to do that then you need to open a different thread and take the one doctrine that stands out most to you and deal with that until resolved and then take on another in a new thread. That’s how to get answers if you really want them…Then you have a problem, but until I was willing to follow wherever the Holy Spirit led no matter what, then I pretty much chased my tail in circles.

Every challenge against the Catholic faith has been answered in my own life and experience. That’s WHY I am a Catholic.

and exactly why I am not. I disagree with much of your post here, but as I state on a new thread, I will be taking my leave for the time being. I wish you well, and God bless.

 

[Church_Militant]

I respect your journey, though as a usual Catholic, you dont seem to respect mine.(with your “thats odd” comment, like your experience is the litmus test for all others)

What other experience can I refer to? Is mine less valid than yours? I think not…

If you respect my journey then you and I both must accept that one or both of us may be wrong. I don’t think so in my case but then neither do you, yet…

As far as a false premise, I could level that charge against you as well, the only difference is that the BIble would support mine, your tradition is shaky ground.

Not so, and I defy you to open a thread in support your your fundamental doctrine of Sola Scriptura and prove it to be found in the word of God. I have studied long and hard and I have not found it, nor did the ECF or the rest of the church for some 1500 years, but if you can prove that the Bible expressly and specifically teaches it then you have something to go on, otherwise my friend you are whistling in the wind. And in grave error.

There is nothing in the Catholic faith that is on shaky ground. it has stood for 2,000 years and will still be here when Our Lord returns.

But please…when you open that thread, PM me a link and I’ll come help it along.

 

[Church_Militant]

hmmm…interesting take…how is SS unscriptural? I do appreciate how you are trying to approach this logically though

That’s why God gave us brains to begin with. To disconnect that is very dangerous.

and exactly why I am not. I disagree with much of your post here, but as I state on a new thread, I will be taking my leave for the time being. I wish you well, and God bless.

And best to you too.

Naturally you disagree with me! If I am right the you are wrong and no one wants to readily accept that. I know! Do you think that I just sat down and decided to come back into the faith? But it was an attack on our most holy faith by an a-C that broke the ice and got me digging. You see the result here. :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :dancing: :extrahappy: :extrahappy: :tiphat:

 

[anamchara]

I am studying the Bible. I dont think I would ever consider returning.

Coach, I understand where you are coming from, I really do. I pray you find some spiritual peace. I think this is the last place anyone should come to find that peace. I would never recommend this place for ex-Catholics or Protestants thinking of converting. I think this place is does not represent the reality of the what he Church is today. It’s more of what traditionalists want it to be.

It sickens me when I read peoples posts on here trying to 'defend" the faith. They are not defending they are often attacking the individual. I think it may be time for me to take my leave least I run back to my beloved Protestant faith I left behind.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

I will answer depending on what I feel your intent in asking is, and based on what I see so far, you seem to want confrontation more than understanding. If Im wrong, tell me and we can dialog.

I’m simply asking questions that you can choose to answer or not.

Yet anothr question for you: Why are you so defensive in responding (hopefully honestly) to questions as to what you believe? Isn’t that knowledge that you would EAGERLY and GLADY WANT to provide to others? It certainly is for me.

My intent is to find out from you what it is that “I consider” you to be wrong about as it relates to Catholic doctrine as you have known it.

So do your evangelical duty, and inform those of us in error, as you see it, with what you consider correct understandings.

Thanks!

 

[CatsAndDogs]

…but as I state on a new thread, I will be taking my leave for the time being. I wish you well, and God bless.

Should you happen to read this, I’ll give you my thanks for your contributions. You’ve shown me, personally, the error of claiming error within Catholic doctrine and tradition. Perhaps in being away from CAF for while you’ll either, or both, discover the errors of being away from the Church, or the “cure” for being unresponsive when asked difficult questions such that you’ll be able to more charitably share yourself with others…

Best to you.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Coach, I understand where you are coming from, I really do. I pray you find some spiritual peace. I think this is the last place anyone should come to find that peace. I would never recommend this place for ex-Catholics or Protestants thinking of converting. I think this place is does not represent the reality of the what he Church is today. It’s more of what traditionalists want it to be.

It sickens me when I read peoples posts on here trying to 'defend" the faith. They are not defending they are often attacking the individual. I think it may be time for me to take my leave least I run back to my beloved Protestant faith I left behind.

If you can seriously say that you’d give up what you know to be the truth due to supposedly scandalous behavior of a tiny population of Catholics, which you know to be a tiny population, then your “seriousness” quotient in BEING a Catholic would be what I’d have to question.

So-called (self-described?) “liberal” Catholics commonly are victims to that same “relativistic” malady of the vast majority of non-Catholics, which is being led around by the nose by the dreadful combination of “hatred of proper authority” and “putting too much stock in sinful humanity”.

It would be lovely if someone could wave a magic wand and the extreme difficulty of acting as we (are supposed to) believe were made an easy task. To be repulsed from the truth by people who don’t act from truth is just silly. If anything, it should drive us more vehemently TOWARD the truth than away from it.

Isn’t human nature, which is not changable regardless of protestations to the contrary by some, a bear, which we will forever be battling?

 

[Church_Militant]

Coach, I understand where you are coming from, I really do. I pray you find some spiritual peace. I think this is the last place anyone should come to find that peace. I would never recommend this place for ex-Catholics or Protestants thinking of converting. I think this place is does not represent the reality of the what he Church is today. It’s more of what traditionalists want it to be.

I’m sorry anamchara but I can’t agree with you on these remarks.

Ex-Catholics and those seeking to convert are (hopefully) looking for accurate information and this is indeed where they can come to get it.

The fact is that I am not a Traditionalist and I offer nothing but accurate info as to Church teaching.

I have yet to see many “ex-Catholics”, (like coach here) enter into any dialog with any warm fuzziness of love and light or even accurate information as to what the church teaches. That makes discussion difficult at best and dialog near impossible.

Witness the errant rhetoric that has been offered so far against the Catholic faith for example.

Telling someone some form of “Aw…that’s alright…” is a disservice to both their intelligence and both our respective faiths, and I won’t do it.

It sickens me when I read peoples posts on here trying to 'defend" the faith. They are not defending they are often attacking the individual.

True there are some that do that. I try hard not be one of them.

However, you seem to think that all these n-Cs are warm fuzzy teddy bears and need only be cuddled when in fact very often (not all the time Praise Be To God!) they come in like slavering attack dogs, or with thinly veiled remarks that they know will be offensive. These need refutation with as much charity as we can find, but they sure as viatam aeternam do not need to be sheltered from the Biblical and historical facts. That would be both dishonest and falsely charitable.

I think it may be time for me to take my leave least I run back to my beloved Protestant faith I left behind.

I’m sorry you feel that way, but I personally don’t see why you are posting in the apologetics forum since you have not offered a thing that deals with the topic here. If you are uncomfortable with apologetics (and some people are) then that’s fine and perhaps Our Lord has some other ministry in mind for you. I know you are good at other discussions, because I’ve seen your posts and talked with you there as well.

I don’t really know what else to tell you, but I hope you will reconsider any thought of leaving the faith. No matter where you go in Christianity, one thing should remain the same. The call to evangelism and faith sharing. It’s not always easy, but it’s commanded by Our Lord Himself and there is always a great harvest and few laborers.

 

[Strummer]

I hope my wife will find me attractive when I’m bald because I swear I may just rip my hair out if I read one more “it’s not easy hearing the truth” remark as if that justifies bullying. As if the very fact that people are offended somehow “proves” that you’re telling them “the truth”. Hey, I could say you’re fat and your mother dresses you funny and that may well hurt but it ain’t necessarily because I’m conveying any “truth”. It’d be because I was being rude and hurtful.

Ask yourselves: what is the purpose of apologetics? If you say anything along the lines of converting others, I believe you are mistaken. Apologetics is a–and I’ll type this out slowly so you can get it–DEFENSIVE art. It explains why we believe what we do. It is NOT a “this is why you’re screwed up” attack but more of a “I see you have a misconception about our belief” defense. It should, at its best, clear up misunderstandings non-Catholics have with US; it should NOT be used to highlight misunderstandings they have within their own faith structure. Yes, there are differences. But rather than pontificating on why sola scriptura is a wrong-headed, self-aggrandizing exercise in theological masturbation, rather point out that “here’s why we Catholics believe in the value of Sacred Tradition…” Do you see the difference? This is not an advocation for “warm and fuzzy” but a recognition that bullying is not inspired by the Holy Spirit. Apologetics is not a prideful act of “see, I’m so right and you’re so wrong, nyah nyah nyah.”

What does this screed on the misuse of apologetics, or the misuse of the word “apologetics” have to do with the value of this board to potential converts? It serves as an example of just why, while CAF is indeed a slice of the Catholic pizza, it is a narrow slice and does not seem to include all the toppings available. If this were the only experience one had of Catholicism, one would have a very misleading view. (See also, the tale of the blind men and the elephant.) Much to the chagrin of many here who seem to elevate CAF and EWTN to the level of it’s on cyber-arch-diocese, the Catholic Church is a very large tent with room for a myriad of expression and experiences. THAT, I believe, is why anam and folks like her would benefit from a break from such places for their own spiritual health. This echo chamber is getting rather stuffy and claustrophobic.

 

[hawkeye]

and what al-la cate religion do you presume to know that I have? I just have to love all the assumptions and presumptions your type run with when confronted with truth and you cant refute it, so you all resort to this type of meaningless post. It

Not meaningless to me, a la ca rte is the type of religion that you can pick and choose, if you run into a problem in everyday life just change the rules, move the goal posts.

So many can’t hack the Catholic faith because you can’t manipulate it to suit your requirements, then how could we, it’s built on a Rock, with Jesus the originator.

So I would say to you that your in a religion that suits you, if the hat fits etc; where as Catholics have to fit into the Catholic faith instead of vice-versa.

 

[aimee]

I hope my wife will find me attractive when I’m bald because I swear I may just rip my hair out if I read one more “it’s not easy hearing the truth” remark as if that justifies bullying. As if the very fact that people are offended somehow “proves” that you’re telling them “the truth”. Hey, I could say you’re fat and your mother dresses you funny and that may well hurt but it ain’t necessarily because I’m conveying any “truth”. It’d be because I was being rude and hurtful.

Ask yourselves: what is the purpose of apologetics? If you say anything along the lines of converting others, I believe you are mistaken. Apologetics is a–and I’ll type this out slowly so you can get it–DEFENSIVE art. It explains why we believe what we do. It is NOT a “this is why you’re screwed up” attack but more of a “I see you have a misconception about our belief” defense. It should, at its best, clear up misunderstandings non-Catholics have with US; it should NOT be used to highlight misunderstandings they have within their own faith structure. Yes, there are differences. But rather than pontificating on why sola scriptura is a wrong-headed, self-aggrandizing exercise in theological masturbation, rather point out that “here’s why we Catholics believe in the value of Sacred Tradition…” Do you see the difference? This is not an advocation for “warm and fuzzy” but a recognition that bullying is not inspired by the Holy Spirit. Apologetics is not a prideful act of “see, I’m so right and you’re so wrong, nyah nyah nyah.”

What does this screed on the misuse of apologetics, or the misuse of the word “apologetics” have to do with the value of this board to potential converts? It serves as an example of just why, while CAF is indeed a slice of the Catholic pizza, it is a narrow slice and does not seem to include all the toppings available. If this were the only experience one had of Catholicism, one would have a very misleading view. (See also, the tale of the blind men and the elephant.) Much to the chagrin of many here who seem to elevate CAF and EWTN to the level of it’s on cyber-arch-diocese, the Catholic Church is a very large tent with room for a myriad of expression and experiences. THAT, I believe, is why anam and folks like her would benefit from a break from such places for their own spiritual health. This echo chamber is getting rather stuffy and claustrophobic.

so you feel this way when folks disagree with you…?
perhaps you should rethink whose bullying…

 

[Strummer]

so you feel this way when folks disagree with you…?
perhaps you should rethink whose bullying…

This would be an example of the CAF version of the “I know you are but what am I?” retort. Note how it attacks the messenger and fails to confront the content of the message.

 

[Contarini]

hmmm…interesting take…how is SS unscriptural? I do appreciate how you are trying to approach this logically though

Scripture does not teach sola scriptura. Therefore, a strict version of sola scriptura (one that would fully justify the use of that particular phrase) is self-contradictory. However, “sola scriptura” can mean many things. There is nothing self-contradictory about saying that all of divine revelation was written down within Scripture, or that Scripture is our primary and most authoritative source for divine revelation, on which all other interpretations and transmissions of divine revelation must be based and by which they must be checked.

What we find in Scripture is the following:

1. Scripture is of divine inspiration and is authoritative and profitable
2. Merely human tradition should be regarded with suspicion lest it nullify God’s Word
3. The Apostles handed on divine revelation through both oral and written means

There are several ways of putting these things together. The Catholic position is one. The historic, Reformational Anglican position (as found in the 39 Articles) is another (in my opinion). I won’t say these are the only ones, but these are the two between which I find myself hesitating much of the time.

Edwin

 

[aimee]

This would be an example of the CAF version of the “I know you are but what am I?” retort. Note how it attacks the messenger and fails to confront the content of the message.

Exactly, now see how you fail to confront the content of the message forgot to add

 

[Strummer]

Exactly, now see how you fail to confront the content of the message forgot to add

Quite the contrary. I negated the post as an irrelevant character attack rather than a debate of arguable points. In other words, I DID deal with the content of your post and found it wanting and stated why I found it so.

Just because you do not like an answer does not mean it is not valid. And, please, before you try using those words back against me, explain exactly HOW you think I am doing the same.

 

[aimee]

Quite the contrary. I negated the post as an irrelevant character attack rather than a debate of arguable points. In other words, I DID deal with the content of your post and found it wanting and stated why I found it so.

Just because you do not like an answer does not mean it is not valid. And, please, before you try using those words back against me, explain exactly HOW you think I am doing the same.

No, I think I’ll refrain…you argue best against yourself…

God Bless Strummer…

 

[Icarus]

Quite the contrary. I negated the post as an irrelevant character attack rather than a debate of arguable points. In other words, I DID deal with the content of your post and found it wanting and stated why I found it so.

Just because you do not like an answer does not mean it is not valid. And, please, before you try using those words back against me, explain exactly HOW you think I am doing the same.

Very good replies Strummer.
… through the whole thread

 

[aimee]

Very good replies Strummer.
… through the whole thread

thats a nice compliment