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Richard_Feynman
Guest
That’s fine! Did you learn something? Did we answer your question?
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EIF5A
Guest
If God usually grants only through Mary, then why even bother praying to saints or God?
Jesus told us to Ask. Ask God, not His mother…
Or did things change after her assumption into heaven and coronation as queen of heaven and earth?
When we ask, are our petitions re-directed to Mary?
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Richard_Feynman
Guest
To be honest, someone else will have to answer this. I’m sorry I can’t answer it for you.
I can try… Like marywarfield said, you don’t have to even be aware of Mary’s part in your salvation, because it doesn’t change the fact that she has a large part of it. But seriously, someone else should answer this.Richard Feynman
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GaryTaylor
Guest
There is nothing here which isn’t Christocentric, its the humility which the Lord displayed in lowering Himself to achieve the atonement which He requires of us in atonement. In this sense the Saints and Mary along with the prophets are examples of virtue which they achieved on their journey which becomes indicative of our struggles. In this sense individuals seek to imitate to obtain through intercession.
Mary in her situation becomes slightly different in the order of grace. All grace was ordered through Mary. In this sense all Grace came through Mary,
The contemplation through Mary is in relation to God and the mysteries of the Church.
That said the devotions in perspective have meaning when in relation to Church thus Christ ,since the Church and Christ are one.
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EIF5A
Guest
If “all grace” = Incarnation and subsequent salvation of humanity, then I can see how grace was ordered through Mary.
But what about “everyday” graces? Such as the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to choose right versus wrong, the grace to persevere in difficult situations, the grace of some or all virtues, financial success, scholastic aptitude, etc?
Are they not directly from the Holy Trinity (or God the Spirit)…?
Or does Mary deliver these divine favors to us…? Or God gives to Mary, who then gives to our guardian angel, who is also supposed to protect us…?
This whole sequence and order of grace is very confusing…
But what about “everyday” graces? Such as the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to choose right versus wrong, the grace to persevere in difficult situations, the grace of some or all virtues, financial success, scholastic aptitude, etc?
Are they not directly from the Holy Trinity (or God the Spirit)…?
Or does Mary deliver these divine favors to us…? Or God gives to Mary, who then gives to our guardian angel, who is also supposed to protect us…?
This whole sequence and order of grace is very confusing…
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joe371
Guest
I know of no former Catholics that worshipped Mary when they were Catholic. I would tell them that Marian worship is idolatry, and the Catholic Church views such a thing as blatant heresy.
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marywarfield
Guest
A. God grants graces to whom God wills.
Mary only asks.
B. grace can be granted to anyone God chooses
which is why I stated that there are circumstances
in which those outside of the Church can be saved.
C. Mary pleads 24/7 for us. All saints do. But Mary-
just as at Cana- is the first intercession with her Son.
D. Mary delivers nothing to us. Grace is granted
through her intercession. God delivers the grace. God
is the source of the Holy Spirit. Mary can only ask
on our behalf.
This is why it is wrong to worship Mary. And equally
wrong to dishonor her.
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adf417
Guest
There have been at least 2 former Catholics on this thread who have confessed they did in fact worship Mary in the past and bases on our teaching of where true worship comes from (the heart) I don’t think we can say we know better. If we think we can correct them and say “no, you really didn’t” our reasoning on this falls apart.
There have been and will continue to be many threads explaining the true teaching of the church to those who have been wrongly taught or, like myself, not taught at all of what true worship is. It was not my intent to make this thread one of those but to simply poll former Catholics and to approach the point from a would be obvious conclusion that has proven failure. As I said earlier some, simply just have never thought of themselves worshiping Mary but ride the bandwagon of non-Catholics speaking this untruth. Who knows, maybe some day those 2 former Catholics will come to a deeper understanding of what true worship is, or is not, as the church teaches.
Peace!!!
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GaryTaylor
Guest
None, its a perpetrated fairy tale and most astonishing by those who call themselves Christian.
The percentage of individuals in the Church who do partake in this is for example about the same as those who practice the Divine Office. The percentages are rather small as opposed to the whole. Nevertheless what I find here are very devote people to the Lord. Pretty much holds true with the Divine Mercy devotion, Stations of the Cross and so forth. But, its in the Church in cooperation with a state of grace first…“first”.
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joe371
Guest
Just curious: what are the names of those 2 people, on this thread, who claimed to worship Mary; I would like to talk to them?
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adf417
Guest
Doug SJust curious: what are the names of those 2 people, on this thread, who claimed to worship Mary; I would like to talk to them?
And Faithdancer even after some clarifications…
Upon further review (as they say in the NFL), I guess I did “worship” Mary when I attended the Catholic church, since I did pray to Mary, and prayer is worship. However, I wasn’t thinking of it that way at the time and I don’t pray to Mary anymore so…error fixed!
Happy Easter! He is risen indeed!
Mark121359
Well-known member
Interesting posts to be sure. As far as Mary worship? Unless you have a golden statue of Mary on an ornate altar, and walk around it with a thurible and incense her and chant to her all night long…I seriously doubt it. 
I truly believe if you would make a sincere effort to try to get to know our Good Mother, and develop a deep relationship with her, you cannot believe the change she’ll bring about in you! She was instrumental in bringing me back to the Church, some 20 plus years ago. And the real game changer was the De Montfort Consecration, “To Jesus through Mary.” What has been written about “True Devotion” is oh so true. She leads you to a much deeper love for her Son. She imparts her love for Him into your heart. And to be quite honest with you, I don’t know how I could ever possibly repay her for it. What an extraordinary gift…from such an extraordinary woman! Looking back on it now, it was without question one of the best and most meaningful decisions I’ve ever made. And I’ll tell you something, there is not a single day that goes by, that I don’t thank the Good Lord above for the exceptional gift He’s given to us all, this gift which is His Mother. I’m not even the least bit afraid to admit, that I cherish and treasure my Mama Mary like there’s no tomorrow!..What a Gal!
I truly believe if you would make a sincere effort to try to get to know our Good Mother, and develop a deep relationship with her, you cannot believe the change she’ll bring about in you! She was instrumental in bringing me back to the Church, some 20 plus years ago. And the real game changer was the De Montfort Consecration, “To Jesus through Mary.” What has been written about “True Devotion” is oh so true. She leads you to a much deeper love for her Son. She imparts her love for Him into your heart. And to be quite honest with you, I don’t know how I could ever possibly repay her for it. What an extraordinary gift…from such an extraordinary woman! Looking back on it now, it was without question one of the best and most meaningful decisions I’ve ever made. And I’ll tell you something, there is not a single day that goes by, that I don’t thank the Good Lord above for the exceptional gift He’s given to us all, this gift which is His Mother. I’m not even the least bit afraid to admit, that I cherish and treasure my Mama Mary like there’s no tomorrow!..What a Gal! Peace, Mark
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joe371
Guest
What’s wrong with asking Mary to pray for you? 
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joe371
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Interesting posts to be sure. As far as Mary worship? Unless you have a golden statue of Mary on an ornate altar, and walk around it with a thurible and incense her and chant to her all night long…I seriously doubt it.
Peace, Mark
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Richard_Feynman
Guest
St. Maximilian Kolbe has some great work on Mary! I’ve read some of it and I honestly couldn’t comprehend it all! This is sure to help!
Richard Feynman
Richard Feynman
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Richard_Feynman
Guest
I also think it’s important to point out that one of De Montfort’s most famous sayings was “God Alone.” Obviously he didn’t exalt Mary to even close to a level as God, but he recognized her significance in the spiritual life.Interesting posts to be sure. As far as Mary worship? Unless you have a golden statue of Mary on an ornate altar, and walk around it with a thurible and incense her and chant to her all night long…I seriously doubt it.
Peace, Mark
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rcwitness
Guest
Well thats good for him,
What we do not know, according to the deposit of faith, is the supposed neccesity which Marian devotees press on the faithfull. For example, I am in Brasil, and my mother in law tells me how I need to learn (practice) the Rosary. But I see a lack of family time prayer that comes from the heart. I have a prayer life, and I dont mind encouragement in deepening my prayer life, but the prayers venerating Mary are not more important than prayers to the Father.
Prayer is personal, and I dont have a problem asking Mary for her intercessory prayers in order to bring more grace into my walk in the salvation given to me. I believe in her motherhood towards all the faithfull and her holiness in God which has merit through her Son.
Prayer is also communal and especially in the Mass. We also have domestic church prayer which is vital to our faith. Family, especially immediate, must strive to pray together for the real things directly happening in our lives. I contend this is more important than Marian devotion. This is what Marian devotion should be bringing us into!!! But far too many Catholics are emphisizing a private devotion NOT as fundamentally necessary to our salvation than the overwhelming revealed prayer from the heart to the Father from Scripture and Teaching of the Cat Church
Thanks Michael
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Dorothy
Guest
And, what an extraordinary saint he was!
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Bernard_Lyons
Guest
Mark 3:31-35.Just curious: what are the names of those 2 people, on this thread, who claimed to worship Mary; I would like to talk to them?
"There came then his brethren and his mother,and standing without,sent unto him,calling him.
And the multitude sat about him,and they said unto him,Behold thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.
And he answered them saying,Who is my mother,or my brethren?
And he looked round about on them which sat about him,and said,
Behold my mother and my brethren!
For whosoever shall do the will of God ,the same is my brother,and my sister,and mother"
As a former Roman Catholic,I would say that there is no scriptural authority ,whereby the humble Mary ,is uprooted from her God honoured role,as the earthly “mother of Jesus” .
And is then made to appear as the “mother of God” :exalted high into the heavens ;and made to become such a one as is seen in Rev 12,
“And there appeared a great wonder in heaven;a woman clothed with the sun,and the moon under her feet,and on her head a crown of twelve stars”
Catholics may point to and indeed do ,infer that when he is seen providing his mothers earthly(and spiritual) necessities,( at the cross) ,during his absence,Jesus also intended to signify much,much more .
That is more than the immediate sense of his words.
“He saith unto his mother, woman behold thy Son!”
“Then said he to his disciple,“Behold thy mother!” " And from that hour that disciple took her into his own home”(John 19:27&28)
First I would say that Jesus by safely providing for his mother with the disciple " whom he loved"(in a special sense) and this was done first :is seen to uphold the natural biblical order of things where the man is the head of the woman.( In respect to doctrinal truth)1Corinthians 11:8.
For me ,that Jesus addresses his mother by that which signifies the female sex ,as a whole:
“woman” he ,by using this general term,is ,I believe ,pointing to the conclusion of her earthly role and wonderfully submissive role ,as his mother ,in his earthly pilgrimage.
This earthly journey that they both shared ( in a unique way) as mother and Son , was now accomplished; because the eternal Son of God ,was so soon ,to return to is Heavenly Father.
Already in Mark 3 for example ,Jesus had previously shown ,even with the saints on earth, a new and heavenly ( by his cross) order of relationship. “The same is my mother”.
For me then Joel371
I don’t believe ,when I was once a RC ,that I was worshipping “Mary” ; that is Mary of the scriptures .But now I would equate it to a female worship ,that predates Mary the mother of Jesus by a long shot:
Like unto that seen in Jeremiah 44:17
" to burn incense to the queen of heaven"
And like that seen in the NT, where the whole world was seen to be worshipers of the great Diana of Ephesians fame.
Do we not see a great propensity even today of this natural order ,( Paul shows us in 1Corinthians) breaking down and every created ,God ordained human relationships and roles reversed?
Women above the man ; child over both, and lawlessness ruling over all?
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adf417
Guest
Since you have now given equal authority to all individuals, your opinion is noted!
Can you explain please? It seems you are saying you didn’t worship Mary but if you were now doing the things you once did you would be in fact worshipping Mary. If this is true what changed? How can what you did in the past not be worship if you currently believe it would have been?
Peace!!!
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