R
Richard_Feynman
Guest
I’m sorry, I can’t prove this statement because it’s false. No one mentioned only Catholics go to Heaven. That is not Church Teaching.
- Status
P
PJM
Guest
This ones easy: the One Church repalces the One Chosen people
Obviously there can be none: God became Incarnate man only once.
But Sarah; the wife of Abram is the Mother of the 12 tribes [12 Apostles]
What’s the relevance of these questions?
All ACTS of Charity
.
IMO,it’s a serious error to use the term “destruction” in these context.
God Bless,
Patrick
B
babylonfalling
Guest
The idea that Catholicism teaches this is actually a false teaching promoted by anti Catholics and bought into, and then repeated by folk who never bother to do their research.I’m sorry, I can’t prove this statement because it’s false. No one mentioned only Catholics go to Heaven. That is not Church Teaching.
B
Bernard_Lyons
Guest
Hi rcwitness,For me there is similarity here which also resemble those other occasions when the earthly responsibility that Jesus had within the perimeter of his human family,it seems ,is seen to be contrasted with that of the responsibility in which he holds and prioritises with his heavenly Father.
Mary and his brethren stood without ,and certain pointed to this fact ,that is ,his mother was waiting to see him(Matthew 12:47) and “stood without”
There seems to be on the part of Jesus somewhat of a gentle rebuke ,in relation to his human relations.this is also possibly true and seen in Jesus reply when questioned of his earthly parents ,although yet twelve years of age " whist ye not that I must be about my Fathers business (Luke2:49)
As there is no apparent reason( at Cana) for Mary to intervene ,other than ,that there was no wine at the wedding ,that is a physical not an heavenly or spiritual want,then Mary’s thought was it not,in regards to a family necessity ?
For me it is Jesus who is seen minding heavenly realities ,about which through the events of the wedding ,he is about to greatly take up in symbolism ,utilising the very same earthly components and using this occasion to show that provision which his blood ,when his hour had truly come,the wine of the NT ,the NT 'in my blood"As he declares close to the hour:
Mark14:25"I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine,until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of heaven"
And as to that ‘hour’ Mark 14:34"My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death"
What then of earthly responsibility at such a time as this : 'O woman what have you to do with me"
C
Cube2
Guest
In this link: bible.ca/cath-one-true-church.htmI’m sorry, I can’t prove this statement because it’s false. No one mentioned only Catholics go to Heaven. That is not Church Teaching.
It outlines the teaching of the Roman Catholic church in regard to those outside the catholic Church. Here is a statement by Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 - 1216).
“Indeed, there is but one universal Church of the faithful outside of which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215; Denz. 151)
According to the CANNONS AND DECREES OF THE COUNCIL OF TRENT, CHAPTER XVIII on the ACCLAMATIONS OF THE FATHERS AT THE CLOSE OF THE COUNCIL, they thus said:
Cardinal. Anathema to all heretics
Answer. Anathema, anathema
Thus, to-date the decrees of the Council of Trent have never been ratified. So, the view of non-Catholics as outside the Grace of God still holds.
R
rcwitness
Guest
This is off topic, so won’t go far in this thread.
Do you really want to know what these Teachings mean, and what they don’t mean???
Have you come to an irevokable conclussion that the Church has not acknowledged the salvation of many outside a full Communion with Jesus and His Church? The Church knows and Teaches there are some who are in a Communion of faith and salvation with the Catholic Church, and though they may not be in full Communion, it may be of no fault of their own and thus unable to be held as heretics.
C
Cube2
Guest
The link: ourladyswarriors.org/prayer/15promise.htm
Our Lady’s 15 Promises for Praying the Rosary.
5. The soul which recommends itself to me by the recitation of the Rosary shall not perish.
11. You shall obtain all you ask of me by recitation of the Rosary.
I have taken 2 of the promises as a prove of the claim. However, all the 15 graces are a call to self exaltation of Mary, and a call to the faithfuls to believe in her. In essence, its not a must to believe in God, by believing in Mary she can take you to God
Another example is the writings on the scapular; “whosoever dies clothed in this scapular shall not suffer eternal fire”. Mary is coming with a piece of cloth as a sign of consecration to herself and not to God and makes judgement in the place of God.
Catechism is holistic and that is why many people believe the teaching. However, the basis and destiny is different.
The basis of Mary ascending to heaven and being crowned the queen of heaven is obscure in scripture and made a dogma. Rev 12 is the one that is quoted so many times as a prove that Mary is crowned in heaven. But that is only in one verse, the other many verses talk of the woman going to the wilderness at her place. This makes one wonder if Mary lives in the wilderness or in heaven.
If the devotion to her is based on that passage then, then the whole message of Mary is omitted. At no one time did the 1st apostles devote to Mary. In the history of the Church, devotion to Mary was introduced in 431 as a Dogma.
A former pastor; what is he currently?
When Mary and the 1st church were preaching, what did she tell the people about herself, and how did the apostles consider her? There is no mention that she was considered as the queen of the Apostles, or that they venerated her.
On the day when Jesus resurrected, what did he tell the apostles? He said in Matt 28: 20, “…behold am with you till the end of the age”. As the mother was there literally, He did not tell them, “My mother is here who will lead you to me” Since Jesus did not mention at any one time that Mary would bring us closer to Himself, then it was not to be.
D
Dorothy
Guest
Cube,
I have time to respond to one of your statements right now, regarding Mary’s promise about the scapular.
The Brown Scapular is one of many sacramentals. Those who choose to wear it are reminded to live a more prayerful life than they have before. They are to meditate on the life of Our Lord Jesus Christ, as well as the two Mysteries involving Mary. They are to be mindful of making sacrifices (little or big depending on their capacity at the time) in union with our Lord’s sufferings, for the sake of conversion of sinners. (which we all are in varying degrees.)
We are all on a spiritual journey, and need to be further sanctified ourselves. Prayer and openness to the grace of the Lord helps very much.
I am aware that you do not share our beliefs with regard to Mary’s privileges. One scripture comes to mind right now:
John 16:12 “I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.”
It seems to me that our greatest difference in being followers of Christ is that practicing Catholics are to hear the Voice of Christ through the God-appointed Magisterium of the Church on FAITH AND MORALS.
Yes, we have sinners in the Catholic Church, yes, we have corruption in the Catholic Church, yes, we have many problems. We have saints too, those who have been fully-formed in the image of Christ and are examples to us of what the grace of the Lord can do.
And, of course, we believe that Mary is full of grace and kept that grace all her life. She was full of grace from the first moment of her conception in her mother’s womb. She had that privilege. And, with great faith, hope, and love she grew in that grace by her humble obedience to our Lord Jesus Christ and the free will He gave her.
If you really want to know what Catholics believe please read those Catholics who have lived their lives defending the Church with their lives many even to martyrdom.
And, please forgive us for being impatient when we hear the same old rebukes that come from those who are misrepresenting Catholic beliefs.
Christians need each other. We need calm dialogue, or perhaps no dialogue at all but just much prayer.
I have time to respond to one of your statements right now, regarding Mary’s promise about the scapular.
The Brown Scapular is one of many sacramentals. Those who choose to wear it are reminded to live a more prayerful life than they have before. They are to meditate on the life of Our Lord Jesus Christ, as well as the two Mysteries involving Mary. They are to be mindful of making sacrifices (little or big depending on their capacity at the time) in union with our Lord’s sufferings, for the sake of conversion of sinners. (which we all are in varying degrees.)
We are all on a spiritual journey, and need to be further sanctified ourselves. Prayer and openness to the grace of the Lord helps very much.
I am aware that you do not share our beliefs with regard to Mary’s privileges. One scripture comes to mind right now:
John 16:12 “I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.”
It seems to me that our greatest difference in being followers of Christ is that practicing Catholics are to hear the Voice of Christ through the God-appointed Magisterium of the Church on FAITH AND MORALS.
Yes, we have sinners in the Catholic Church, yes, we have corruption in the Catholic Church, yes, we have many problems. We have saints too, those who have been fully-formed in the image of Christ and are examples to us of what the grace of the Lord can do.
And, of course, we believe that Mary is full of grace and kept that grace all her life. She was full of grace from the first moment of her conception in her mother’s womb. She had that privilege. And, with great faith, hope, and love she grew in that grace by her humble obedience to our Lord Jesus Christ and the free will He gave her.
If you really want to know what Catholics believe please read those Catholics who have lived their lives defending the Church with their lives many even to martyrdom.
And, please forgive us for being impatient when we hear the same old rebukes that come from those who are misrepresenting Catholic beliefs.
Christians need each other. We need calm dialogue, or perhaps no dialogue at all but just much prayer.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Cube…
Regarding the promises of the rosary, what you are omitting is what their reflections are about.
They are reflections of the life of Christ from His incarnation in Mary all the way up to His ascension into heaven, Pentecost, – the beginning of the Church, and gratitude to Mary for her ‘Yes’ to God, by the assumption of Mary into heaven and her coronation as queen of heaven and earth…because of her yes to Christ, all her care for Him her entire life, being witness to His crucifixion, when only one apostle showed up.
And to not give Mary honor at the end for her great work in the history of faith is not becoming of the family of man.
The next concern to be covered, is just how long it took the Church to declare Mary’s assumption into heaven, – one thousand, nine hundred and fifty four years.
Now, wouldn’t you think, looking at the catechism which describes the content of our faith and its parameters, that it was long reflections and dialogues concerning Mary, considering the effectiveness of her help and example for Christians in the entire length of our history??? Likewise, you need to check out the foot notes of the Catechism and see the preliminary and vast number come from Scripture itself.
What you are missing is what happened to Christianity after Revelations.
Mary’s immaculate conception was debated by theological circles for some time.
You can do a search on Duns Scotus who answered the great questions concerning Mary’s immaculate conception She came from parents, Anna and Joachim, who passed on original sin to her.
But for her to become the Mother of the Son of God, she likewise needed even greater salvation and redemption by the Heavenly Father for this most great mission of any human being in history.
Mary is the greatest creation of God because she is the one chosen to become the Son of God, Savior and Redeemer of mankind, and the only One Who could atone for the sin of mankind. Because only God can forgive sin.
Well, if one does not see any importance to Mary as God does it alone, then why did God bother with being Trinitarian and needing His Son to redeem us? Couldn’t God just forgive mankind with the animal sacrifice in the Jewish temple of ancient times?
Mankind was so decrepid that it lost its own sense of dignity, and in that time, the whole Jewish culture of the Law was about to collapse.
Mankind needed to visualize itself again…and the only means was to see the Perfect Man, Jesus. And this visual was only made possible by Mary.
Mary and Jesus are on the same plane…Mary said Yes…to give Christ His humanity. And she could not pass on bodily sin to Him. And with our Catholic sensitivity to having Christ present on our altars and His residence among us in the tabernacle…we cannot but help but reflect on Mary being the means with her cooperation with God to allow herself to be Christ’s mother.
For such an awesome mission, then, Mary was especially made by God the Father, to be Christ’s mother, Mary full of grace. And she was given free will, evident in Scripture. Mary’s mission to be Christ’s mother required her then, to be that much more saved and redeemed, and this was done by her being of “yes” at her creation, at her conception.
When the Church says, Mary was assumed into heaven, the Church states that with the word, ‘assume’. We assume Mary must have been assumed into heaven because she did not sin.
The wages of sin are death.
But with her yes, at her conception, from then on she did no sin. She did not deserve death, so we can assume that she followed Our Lord and was assumed to Him in heaven. How we do not know. The Orthodox tradition has said that the event was ‘shocking’ and that is all we have known down through tradition.
You should take time to study the Catechism and to do so with content.
That means, you have to go back to the Prologue and see what our perspective is in reading Scripture.
Just as the catechism is as whole of faith, so is our approach to Scripture. Every word, every phrase, every story is connected to the whole in the context of salvation history that can be summed up in one word, “Jesus”.
Regarding the promises of the rosary, what you are omitting is what their reflections are about.
They are reflections of the life of Christ from His incarnation in Mary all the way up to His ascension into heaven, Pentecost, – the beginning of the Church, and gratitude to Mary for her ‘Yes’ to God, by the assumption of Mary into heaven and her coronation as queen of heaven and earth…because of her yes to Christ, all her care for Him her entire life, being witness to His crucifixion, when only one apostle showed up.
And to not give Mary honor at the end for her great work in the history of faith is not becoming of the family of man.
The next concern to be covered, is just how long it took the Church to declare Mary’s assumption into heaven, – one thousand, nine hundred and fifty four years.
Now, wouldn’t you think, looking at the catechism which describes the content of our faith and its parameters, that it was long reflections and dialogues concerning Mary, considering the effectiveness of her help and example for Christians in the entire length of our history??? Likewise, you need to check out the foot notes of the Catechism and see the preliminary and vast number come from Scripture itself.
What you are missing is what happened to Christianity after Revelations.
Mary’s immaculate conception was debated by theological circles for some time.
You can do a search on Duns Scotus who answered the great questions concerning Mary’s immaculate conception She came from parents, Anna and Joachim, who passed on original sin to her.
But for her to become the Mother of the Son of God, she likewise needed even greater salvation and redemption by the Heavenly Father for this most great mission of any human being in history.
Mary is the greatest creation of God because she is the one chosen to become the Son of God, Savior and Redeemer of mankind, and the only One Who could atone for the sin of mankind. Because only God can forgive sin.
Well, if one does not see any importance to Mary as God does it alone, then why did God bother with being Trinitarian and needing His Son to redeem us? Couldn’t God just forgive mankind with the animal sacrifice in the Jewish temple of ancient times?
Mankind was so decrepid that it lost its own sense of dignity, and in that time, the whole Jewish culture of the Law was about to collapse.
Mankind needed to visualize itself again…and the only means was to see the Perfect Man, Jesus. And this visual was only made possible by Mary.
Mary and Jesus are on the same plane…Mary said Yes…to give Christ His humanity. And she could not pass on bodily sin to Him. And with our Catholic sensitivity to having Christ present on our altars and His residence among us in the tabernacle…we cannot but help but reflect on Mary being the means with her cooperation with God to allow herself to be Christ’s mother.
For such an awesome mission, then, Mary was especially made by God the Father, to be Christ’s mother, Mary full of grace. And she was given free will, evident in Scripture. Mary’s mission to be Christ’s mother required her then, to be that much more saved and redeemed, and this was done by her being of “yes” at her creation, at her conception.
When the Church says, Mary was assumed into heaven, the Church states that with the word, ‘assume’. We assume Mary must have been assumed into heaven because she did not sin.
The wages of sin are death.
But with her yes, at her conception, from then on she did no sin. She did not deserve death, so we can assume that she followed Our Lord and was assumed to Him in heaven. How we do not know. The Orthodox tradition has said that the event was ‘shocking’ and that is all we have known down through tradition.
You should take time to study the Catechism and to do so with content.
That means, you have to go back to the Prologue and see what our perspective is in reading Scripture.
Just as the catechism is as whole of faith, so is our approach to Scripture. Every word, every phrase, every story is connected to the whole in the context of salvation history that can be summed up in one word, “Jesus”.
P
PJM
Guest
Just an FYI,
There is no rebuke here. Jesus is asking Mary: DO YOU UNDERSTAND [read as accept] the cinsequences of your request.
She DOES & then He DOES:thumbsup:
B
Bernard_Lyons
Guest
Hi Patrick, “This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee,and manifested forth his glory;and his disciples believed on him”(John2:11)
Although there are notable differences between the KJV and the Douay on this particular verse(John2:4) there isn’t any in last part of the verse :“mine hour is not yet come”.
We all would accept,I expect, that the ‘hour’ Jesus is here referring to isn’t the happy time of celebration ,especially for the married couple,that was then In progress ,that would have been “their hour”, not what Jesus called ,‘mine hour’.But Jesus was rather looking ahead to that ‘hour’ unique to him.
“And he went forward a little,and fell on the ground,and prayed that,if it were possible,the hour might pass from him.”(Mark 14:35)
If Jesus was then simply asking Mary a question as you say ,then he would have had to expect to see in Mary ,’ an understanding '( in order to as you say ‘accept’) in regards to the real hour of indescribable suffering which yet lay ahead of him.
For this question to be intelligible Mary would also have had to have understanding of the implication involved on her part .That is,
'a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also"Luke 2:35.
Now I’m sure that 'Mary kept all these things,and pondered them in her heart."
But what in actual fact did she know of the reality of these things which yet lay in the future,and were still to be fulfilled ?
That is at that time when first of all , she ,“saith unto him,they have no wine”? (John 2:3)
For as we have noted before in regards to the events around the last supper, only Jesus it appears ( according to the scriptures) had such a ‘devine’ foreknowledge. John 20:9
“For as yet they knew not the scripture,that he must rise again from the dead”.
C
Cube2
Guest
Thanks for the response.
We respect Mary very much for what she did. She was found worthy by God to carry our Saviour Jesus Christ in her womb.
Our greatest controversy is the NEW doctrines.
The church history clearly shows that the teaching of referring to Mary as the “mother of God” was made a Dogma in 431AD. So, it was not a church doctrine ever since the time of the apostles. Secondly, for the view to be declared a Dogma, it meant it did not have enough authenticity to stand by itself. The declaration opened a new wave of controversy of understanding as God does not have a mother. God is a trinity of Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. From the time Mary gave birth to Jesus, she was always referred to a s mother of Jesus. We do not have a controversy over that.
We try alot to understand Catholics but the basis of the Catholic doctrine is not based on scripture.
About the scapular, history states:
On July 16, 1251, when the Carmelite Order was in danger of crumbling, Our Lady appeared to St. Simon Stock and gave him the Holy Brown Scapular with the treasured promise that “Whosoever dies clothed in this shall never suffer eternal fire.” The trouble ceased.
The problem between Catholics and the other believers is the significance of Mary’s appearance and how she solves a problem at all times, not only to the Carmelite Order.
The 1st question is why Mary?
Mary is not a messenger of God. The messengers of God are the angels. Peter was rescued by angel from prison. When Jesus was ascending, 2 angels appeared in Acts 1:10 etc etc.
The 2nd Question is why Mary does not exalt God?
Mary comes with a brown Scapular and says, “Whosoever dies clothed in this shall never suffer eternal fire”
This contradicts with Jesus’ words,
John:3:14-15: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John:14:6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Rev:20:15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
The question is, whom do we believe?
C
Cube2
Guest
I’ll go by the teaching of Christ and the 1st Apostles.
In John:14:6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If those apostles believed in Jesus and died with assurance of eternal life, I too will keep on trusting on Jesus. Their destiny was shaped by their faith in Jesus, and not in His church. The word church was in reference to the group, but each believer had a personal relationship with Christ. This is the binding cord of the church.
R
rcwitness
Guest
Maybe I am only speaking for myself, but I could care less about wearing a Brown Scapular.
What I would do, if I was interested in wearing one, is research the whole story behind the practice, not taking any aspects from it alone without the balance of the rest. Then, when I understood its meaning in accordance with the faith of the Church, would I wear one. As it is, I do not understand it.
I am not one to practice devotions to private revelations. I am sure they have benifits to certain communities and factions, but I seek more universal practices and devotions.
What I think Catholics should dwell on, is the abuse of a supposed devotion to Mary, while rejecting Teachings of the Church. For example, can someone claim to have a deep devotion to Mary and receive a sterilization surgery, and claim it is not wrong???
R
rcwitness
Guest
We do not pit Jesus against His own Church, but recognize His Life entrusted to the Church.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
About calling Mary Mother of God, that is affirming Jesus is God, and following the Council of Nicea in the 300’s, the last revelation of Jesus Christ – by the Catholic Church…that Jesus is the same as the Heavenly Father of the same substance.
Again, Mary was no ordinary woman but the woman called by God to be the mother of His son.
Our Lord can not be placed in a sullied tabernacle, either of His mother or on the altar.
We must realize that only God can forgive sin, only God can atone for sin. The sacraments that open to us the divine life of God among us, the teaching magesterium of the Holy Spirit in the transmission of faith, all must point to Christ.
The Catholic/Eastern churches calls all believers to be ecclesial deists. Christ is big enough and strong enough to deal with choosing human beings to run His Church. They must be chosen and consecrated by Him in truth and spirit.
It would be good for people to get a universal Catholic Catechism and read it from beginning to end. The last part covers prayer…and uses its teachings only on the Our Father.
Another area to study is the Liturgy, the Mass. It also helps to put our faith in practice.
How we worship Christ is so totally different than that in Protestantism.
Again, Mary was no ordinary woman but the woman called by God to be the mother of His son.
Our Lord can not be placed in a sullied tabernacle, either of His mother or on the altar.
We must realize that only God can forgive sin, only God can atone for sin. The sacraments that open to us the divine life of God among us, the teaching magesterium of the Holy Spirit in the transmission of faith, all must point to Christ.
The Catholic/Eastern churches calls all believers to be ecclesial deists. Christ is big enough and strong enough to deal with choosing human beings to run His Church. They must be chosen and consecrated by Him in truth and spirit.
It would be good for people to get a universal Catholic Catechism and read it from beginning to end. The last part covers prayer…and uses its teachings only on the Our Father.
Another area to study is the Liturgy, the Mass. It also helps to put our faith in practice.
How we worship Christ is so totally different than that in Protestantism.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Cube…
I don’t understand your reasoning, but my pastor died years ago. It is common knowledge, though, pastorally speaking, that Marian Catholics have the strongest devotion to Jesus.
John Paul II dedicated his pontificate to Mary.
If you are following Sola Scriptura, you are not following in the tradition of faith founded by the Jewish people. They were not sola scriptura but followed those authorized by God to have INTEGRITY of faith, who expound and continue on the same path of salvation history.
Consider that Christ’s death and resurrection is the greatest event in history, a meeting and a reunion and restoration between God and man.
Where is the witness of faith of those of the Resurrected Lord after the Book of Revelations in your church? Where is the development of theology to interpret Scriptures properly and with integrity after the last apostle, St. John died?
What happened to people after Christ who follow the bible alone tradition after St. John???
There were the gnostics, there were those who did not believe in the Eucharist and the breaking of bread which was renewed and sanctified and consecrated by Christ at the Last Supper and in His last visit to the apostles after the walk of Emmaus.
The walk of Emmaus is quite interesting because someone came to the apostles who explained everything about Scripture to them. This shows right here that the apostles were not taught everything when Christ was with them on earth.
They did not recognize this teacher and did not fully understand…as that visitor said, ‘You still do not understand?!!’
It was only after Jesus broke the bread and then disappeared did they understand the Word of God and everything was complete.
Jesus after the walk of Emmaus did not hand the apostles the Bible. He did not give them individual books of the Bible. He orally explained, He broke bread and left them…Oral Tradition and the Breaking of the Bread, the Eucharist are what gives us the understanding of the Word of God, Logos. The Living Word, not text because it is in text one’s personal and often divisive opinion of man comes through and we are no longer one.
About Mary and the apostles, she knew the apostles. Now for this great event and for Mary’s Scriptural awareness that she was the most blessed among women, would you not but think that she would share what she had experienced of Our Lord with those He called to apostles to be sent out??? I mean, they were human beings and Mary did not shut herself up some place. She was provided for by St. John. She spoke to him. She spoke to the apostles.
Not everything is found in the Bible but in the Church. And this is where the Bible left off and the life in Christ lived out, witnessed and documented, our hierarchy, our Church Fathers, martyrs, saints and testimonies of their lives are passed on to every generation.
Sola Scriptura devoids you of the Church and its communion you are called to. The more we understand the Lord through the Church, the more we understand Mary.
Many who accuse us of Mary worship likewise know nothing about our form of worship and all the theological writings of our worship which is so so different than Protestant bible services.
I don’t understand your reasoning, but my pastor died years ago. It is common knowledge, though, pastorally speaking, that Marian Catholics have the strongest devotion to Jesus.
John Paul II dedicated his pontificate to Mary.
If you are following Sola Scriptura, you are not following in the tradition of faith founded by the Jewish people. They were not sola scriptura but followed those authorized by God to have INTEGRITY of faith, who expound and continue on the same path of salvation history.
Consider that Christ’s death and resurrection is the greatest event in history, a meeting and a reunion and restoration between God and man.
Where is the witness of faith of those of the Resurrected Lord after the Book of Revelations in your church? Where is the development of theology to interpret Scriptures properly and with integrity after the last apostle, St. John died?
What happened to people after Christ who follow the bible alone tradition after St. John???
There were the gnostics, there were those who did not believe in the Eucharist and the breaking of bread which was renewed and sanctified and consecrated by Christ at the Last Supper and in His last visit to the apostles after the walk of Emmaus.
The walk of Emmaus is quite interesting because someone came to the apostles who explained everything about Scripture to them. This shows right here that the apostles were not taught everything when Christ was with them on earth.
They did not recognize this teacher and did not fully understand…as that visitor said, ‘You still do not understand?!!’
It was only after Jesus broke the bread and then disappeared did they understand the Word of God and everything was complete.
Jesus after the walk of Emmaus did not hand the apostles the Bible. He did not give them individual books of the Bible. He orally explained, He broke bread and left them…Oral Tradition and the Breaking of the Bread, the Eucharist are what gives us the understanding of the Word of God, Logos. The Living Word, not text because it is in text one’s personal and often divisive opinion of man comes through and we are no longer one.
About Mary and the apostles, she knew the apostles. Now for this great event and for Mary’s Scriptural awareness that she was the most blessed among women, would you not but think that she would share what she had experienced of Our Lord with those He called to apostles to be sent out??? I mean, they were human beings and Mary did not shut herself up some place. She was provided for by St. John. She spoke to him. She spoke to the apostles.
Not everything is found in the Bible but in the Church. And this is where the Bible left off and the life in Christ lived out, witnessed and documented, our hierarchy, our Church Fathers, martyrs, saints and testimonies of their lives are passed on to every generation.
Sola Scriptura devoids you of the Church and its communion you are called to. The more we understand the Lord through the Church, the more we understand Mary.
Many who accuse us of Mary worship likewise know nothing about our form of worship and all the theological writings of our worship which is so so different than Protestant bible services.
E
Elizium23
Guest
The Council of Nicaea in 325 condemned Arianism and declared the divinity of Christ. You must also be obligated to reject this new doctrine and deny the Divine Nature of Christ and hold him as a creation of God the Father. You would be in good company with the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
The Council of Chalcedon in 451 condemned Monophysitism and infallibly proclaimed the two natures of Christ. Rejecting this new doctrine as you should will place you firmly in the camp of the Oriental Orthodox.
Constantinople III in 681 condemned Monothelitism, which you must embrace as you reject “new doctrines”. As monothelites you would be in quite a minority because I am not aware of any Church or sect or ecclesial community which adheres to this.
Nicaea II in 787 restored the veneration of icons, but since this is a “new doctrine” you must place yourself with the iconoclasts and reject all religious imagery. You would be in the company of Jews, Muslims and Protestants here.
And then we have the problem of Sacred Scripture. Since it was Ecumenical Councils which met hundreds of years after Christ’s ascension and assembled the canon, this must be “new doctrine” as well. You are honor-bound to reject the entire New Testament as a new creation that did not exist in the Apostolic age. In rejecting the New Testament you will be once again in good company with Jews and Muslims, but you will not be much of a Christian at all if you continue to reject all the “new doctrines”.
Oh and by the way, devotion to Mary was introduced long before any Ecumenical Council. It was mandated by Christ.
[BIBLEDRB]John 19:26-27[/BIBLEDRB]
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PJM
Guest
'Beleive him yes, comprehend that He was God, likely not yet, but leaning that way.
Although there are notable differences between the KJV and the Douay on this particular verse(John2:4) there isn’t any in last part of the verse :“mine hour is not yet come”.
Douay: " And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? My hour is not yet come."
Vulgate: “et dicit ei Iesus quid mihi et tibi est mulier nondum venit hora mea”
King James:"Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come ".
Jn. 2: 4 is the start of His Ministry; while** Mk. 14:35** is near the end of His pre-Death & Resurrection Ministry.
Mary’s affirmation was in saying W/O futher questions: “DO WHATEVER HE SAY"S”
That can only be from a right understanding. SEE Mt. 16:17
NOFrom the moment Mary agrees knowingly that She is being asked to be the “Mother of God”; through the moment of the conception by the HS, Mary ALWAYS, everytime, never wavered in saying " YES" to God.
Lk. 1: 38, 48 “[38] And Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her. & [48] for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed”
This is an Metaphysical expression for GREAT Grief to Mary [again W/O hesitaition She said “YES”
Did she know ALL of the Gory details: we don’t know for sure. Dis She understand that Christ was to Suffer and Die: undoubtly.
There is no evidence of that fact.
Matt.12: 40 “For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth”
Mk. 8: 31 “And he began to teach them that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again”
Jn. 2: 19 "John.2: 19 "Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up”
It was NOT a closely guarded SECRET
Patrick
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Richard_Feynman
Guest
Don’t forget that the Bible was introduced about 400 years after Christ! I believe it was at the Council of Carthage, but I’m not sure.
Oh woops! I missed it. You mentioned it.
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