Former Catholics - Mary worship

[adf417]

No one worships Mary. No one. We do honor her, we ask that SHE prays on our behalf. We do not worship Saints, we honor and respect them, as we honor and respect Mary. We ask the Saints, who are already in heaven and have a special connection with the Lord and with God to pray for us. Mary gave birth to our savior and yours. For this she deserves our veneration. We often ask Mary to pray for us. Mary is the mother of our church.

Does this clear things up?

Im quite aware of the church teaching on this. The question was for former Catholics and their former beliefs. Sorry if I was not clear.

Peace!!!

 

[Doug_S]

Ok so if someone asked you “did you worship Mary” your response would be “yes”, correct?

Peace!!!

Yes. I am trying to think of reasons that i can dismiss my behavior.
The truth is I willingly did this all the time.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

It is all the same to me.

But is it all the same to God?

If prayer and worship are not synonymous (and we Catholics believe that they are not, and so you should have been taught), then prayer (which is simply communication, and not ‘for God alone’, don’t you ever read your Shakespeare?) can be offered to and for anyone, since it is not worship, which is “homage and honor paid to GOD ALONE.” I can pray to you (I pray you, listen to me) or for you (Lord, hear my prayer for this soul to return to the Faith).

If you EVER were told to pray, “Mary (or Joseph), YOU redeemed my soul and I honor you as Creator and Redeemer”, you were told something which is absolutely NOT Catholic teaching. If you ‘prayed’ to Mary (or Joseph) with any other words which did not claim them as God, Supreme Being, or Redeemer, you weren’t worshipping them.

 

[adf417]

Yes. I am trying to think of reasons that i can dismiss my behavior.
The truth is I willingly did this all the time.

Doug I wouldn’t want to put words in your mouth as only you can know what you worship. However I can see the reason why you were taught to pray regular to Mary as this is a teaching of the church. The difference is the church, in its teachings, does not equate prayer to worship but who am I to say you were not worshiping Mary even if you were “only” praying to her.

Peace!!!

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Yes. I am trying to think of reasons that i can dismiss my behavior.
The truth is I willingly did this all the time.

Just exactly how did you worship her?

Did you call her GOD? Did you claim that she saved you? Did you tell her that she was equal to GOD? Better than God?

 

[cath4alltime]

Are there any former Catholics here that can say you did worship Mary when you were Catholic? If not, what do you say to those who believe you did?

Peace!!!

I tell them that they had absolutely no idea what they are talking about. I knew then and I know now that I did not nor do not worship the Blessed Mother

 

[House_Harkonnen]

Are there any former Catholics here that can say you did worship Mary when you were Catholic? If not what do you say to those who believe you did?

Peace!!!

I didn’t worship Mary as a Catholic. But my faith wasn’t very Marian.

 

[dzheremi]

I find it weird that there’s this “Catholics worship Mary” mentality. The East has, in my opinion, a stronger devotion to Mary (she’s *very *present in liturgical texts, much more than Latin texts) and yet a Copt once asked me if Latins worship Mary.

The second or third time I ever attended the liturgy here at St. Pishoy (long before I was baptized), over the post-liturgy agape meal the subject of Catholics and Mary came up. Someone said that they think Catholics worship Mary, and I told him that they do not. Knowing that I was Catholic, Fr. Marcus asked him to be quiet while I explained why/how Catholics don’t worship Mary (which I did, to the best of my ability), and once I was done the man who had said that sort of shrugged and said okay. Then someone else asked Father if it was true what I had said or if Catholics really do worship Mary, and Father said that of course Catholics do not worship Mary – you’ve just heard from one what they really believe, so there’s no reason to continue to think otherwise.

It is a little strange that Copts of all people would think that Catholics worship Mary (what with all the Coptic Theotokias, “the Mary Month” and associated praises and customs of Kiahk, and all the rest of the very strong devotion to the Theotokos in the Coptic tradition),but I think to the extent that you do find that idea it is probably people in the disapora who have either been heavily influenced by Protestantism in their new countries, or are just very isolated from other Christian traditions. With 90%+ of all Christians in Egypt being Coptic Orthodox, there are still a lot of people who really don’t know anything else, even if they’ve been in a new country for a while; I’ve had to explain to people who moved here before I was even born what Chalcedon was, what the differences between the Coptic Pope and the Roman Pope are, etc. These are men in their 50s and 60s! Suffice it to say, just like there is a persistent problem of ignorance of even the rest of their own communion when it comes to the much more numerous Latin Catholics within the RCC communion, outside of that context it can’t be assumed with certainty that people will know much of anything of those outside of their own communion, particularly when you get conceptually and culturally “further away” from the target, as in the case of the average Copt compared to the average Latin. What tradition do they share that both would readily recognize without further education? They’re both Christian in some general/basic sense, but outside of that…

To the OP: I never worshiped St. Mary as a Roman Catholic, and I don’t now. I do, however, have proper reverence for her, well within the bounds of my particular church’s tradition (which is very “Marian”, to use the Latin word ).

 

[adf417]

It is all the same to me.

Hey Doug this got me thinking and I just wanted to ask another.

Do you not consider the Eucharist not to be the real presence of Christ either?

I’m thinking there is a strong correlation to these lines of thought. If the Eucharist is symbolic then the consuming would not be a form of worship of Christ and therefor limiting your form of worship to only prayer and prayer to Mary seems equal. Is this a fair assessment?

I’m thinking I might should start a new thread on this correlation of Mary worship & the real presence in the Eucharist but I will see how this plays out here…

Peace!!!

 

[Dorothy]

It is all the same to me.

It is different. Have you ever asked a dear Christian friend to pray for you?

I am sure you are not worshiping him/her.

 

[Miserissima]

It is all the same to me.

This gives me pause. We pray to, i.e. ask Mary’s intercession in the Communion of Saints.

We also pray to (ask of) God directly, but offer adoration and thanks as well.

If there is no difference in praying to / asking of God or Mary, then how is one worshipping God above and beyond just asking for things?

 

[rcwitness]

I agree with everything you say Don which IS the reason I ask my question.

I ran into a former Catholic the other day and, as usual, the subject of “Catholics worship Mary” came up. So I asked him, “You mean to tell me when you were Catholic you worshiped Mary?” And with a puzzled look he said “well of coarse not”.

After much discussion he began to realize how ridiculous that assertion can be from someone not knowing the heart of the worshiper and apologized for his comment.

Peace!!!

I think you are approaching the accusation from a very thought provoking angle. We always hear the accusation from former Cats that “Catholics” worship Mary, instead of hearing, “When I was Catholic, I worshiped Mary.”

As a boy in Sunday school, and vbs, I remember that in the parking lot of the church I attended there is a statue of Mary. We as a class during certain times we would go in front of the statue and pray. I also remember that in church there are statues of Mary on the left, and Joseph on the right. In front of these there are kneelers with many candles, and the stand has a slot to drop money into. I learned that the money was an offering for the souls in “Purgatory”.

I always felt that we were praying to Mary. I don’t know how to reconcile it as anything else especially when you are kneeling in front of a statue of her.

I always was curious as to the rosary having 90% of the prayers being said to honor Mary. If the intention is to ask for intercession, is not one time sufficient?

It is not my intention to start a ruckus here, I am only trying to participate. Sometimes threads like this can turn, in an unwanted direction.

Peace!!

I am a former Non-Cat myself. The Marian devotions can be puzzling!!! Church Teaching, over time, recognized distinctions in prayer, icons, and Mary’s role. This doesn’t mean the Church ‘created’ new doctrines.

Jesus told the Apostles difficult Teachings and said, there are many things that you cannot bear.

Yes. I am trying to think of reasons that i can dismiss my behavior.
The truth is I willingly did this all the time.

I am of the opinion that we CAN in fact place Mary as a false Idol in our hearts and devotion. Many Cats dont think so. The story of Bathsheba interceding for Adonijah in 1Kings 2 is used in Cat apologetics for Marian intercession, yet we must remember that Adonijah was in fact rejected and died! He attempted to go through Bathsheba out of irreverence to the King.

 

[EIF5A]

On earth, some people have been gifted with greater power/authority, money, talent, and virtues. But in the end, God is the cause of all. The saints are in a “glorified” state in heaven, and all they possess is also from God.

Let’s say a peasant farmer fell down a ditch, and to-be-Saint Teresa of Avila was walking by. The farmer yells, “Help, save me Sister Teresa!”

If she lends a hand and saves him, is that weird and out of the ordinary?

Or should the farmer have stayed in the ditch and prayed to God alone to send angels to lift him up by the feet?

The ability to help her neighbor out of a ditch (with the use of physical strength) is not something to marvel at.

Wouldn’t it make sense for saints (and the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God) to offer help from heaven? When we pray to them for intercession, they can hear us.

But such ability is not from their own ability, but because they are given such capacity by God. If we are to love and help our neighbors even on earth, wouldn’t it make sense for saints in heaven to do even greater things from heaven?

Acknowledging that the saints and Mary have supernatural abilities does not mean we acknowledge them as divine beings. We all know that without God, we are nothing and can do nothing. It is pleasing to God to see His creatures love one another and pray for one another and help one another – something as simple as giving up a pair of shoes to giving up a life. Is it any different because they are in heaven?

Regarding amount of time spent to devotion to Mary: It strikes me that in our earthly time, much time is spent among friends, parents, family members, coworkers etc in comparison to prayer. But no one seems to accuse people of spending “too much” time and not enough time praying to God.

With the proper understanding that God alone is God, and meeting the basic requirements of exercising virtues, attending Mass, receiving Sacraments etc, I don’t think God would be upset with us if we ask Our Lady for help more often than asking God directly…

 

[adf417]

I think you are approaching the accusation from a very thought provoking angle. We always hear the accusation from former Cats that “Catholics” worship Mary, instead of hearing, “When I was Catholic, I worshiped Mary.”

Yea I just thought there would be more former Catholics here to weigh in on this. I guess not. :ehh:

Peace!!!

 

[jerusalemgifts]

No one worships Mary. No one. We do honor her, we ask that SHE prays on our behalf. We do not worship Saints, we honor and respect them, as we honor and respect Mary. We ask the Saints, who are already in heaven and have a special connection with the Lord and with God to pray for us. Mary gave birth to our savior and yours. For this she deserves our veneration. We often ask Mary to pray for us. Mary is the mother of our church.

Does this clear things up?

slightly off-topic maybe - but can you explain / show in Scripture where one should pray to Jesus or Abba Father through Mary?

 

[pablope]

slightly off-topic maybe - but can you explain / show in Scripture where one should pray to Jesus or Abba Father through Mary?

It is called intercessory prayer…scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

And it is jewish in roots and origin:calledtocommunion.com/2012/08/relics-saints-and-the-assumption-of-mary/
The first real blow to this interpretation came when I read Peter Brown’s book, The Cult of Saints: Its Rise and Function in Latin Christianity.
Brown challenged my view that the place of saints and relics in the church was a mere holdover from paganism, and that the practice was somehow peripheral to true Christianity. Instead, Brown painted a picture of ancient Christianity and paganism in which relics were indispensable to the former, and repulsive to the latter. Far from a holdover from paganism, the place of relics in the Church appeared as something intensely Jewish, Hebraic, and Old Testament. Pagans, like Julian-the-Apostate, found the practice revolting and legislated against it. (Paganism, with its notions of ritual purity, had strictly delimited the realm of divine worship and neatly separated it from the realm of corpses and the dead.)

 

[rcwitness]

slightly off-topic maybe - but can you explain / show in Scripture where one should pray to Jesus or Abba Father through Mary?

Can you show us where the Church tells us to pray to God through Mary?

As far as I know, we are encouraged to ask for her prayers on our behalf, yet that certainly doesnt mean we are not obligated to have personal and direct prayer to God.

When we pray, we are not praying alone! We are One Bride, with one faith. Mary is the mother of our Faith. This means she contains the pure faith from the outset of the New Covenant. Her desire has always been that of her son’s. She has been graced in a unique manner fitting to be called a mother by all who obey her Son!

Peace
Michael

 

[total_Catholic]

As a boy in Sunday school, and vbs, I remember that in the parking lot of the church I attended there is a statue of Mary. We as a class during certain times we would go in front of the statue and pray. I also remember that in church there are statues of Mary on the left, and Joseph on the right. In front of these there are kneelers with many candles, and the stand has a slot to drop money into. I learned that the money was an offering for the souls in “Purgatory”.

I always felt that we were praying to Mary. I don’t know how to reconcile it as anything else especially when you are kneeling in front of a statue of her.

I always was curious as to the rosary having 90% of the prayers being said to honor Mary. If the intention is to ask for intercession, is not one time sufficient?

It is not my intention to start a ruckus here, I am only trying to participate. Sometimes threads like this can turn, in an unwanted direction.

Peace!!

Never mind the fact that the Mysteries relate to the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ himself though.:coffeeread:

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

I understand all the why’s and what-for’s as to the reasons. I was just wondering if you did in fact worship Mary as Catholic and if not what do you say to those that say you did. I would like to hear your answer.

Peace!!!

Dear adf417. Yes, in my previous post on this subject ,I. was merely coming from a human perspective,that is as a former catholic who has in the past said the " Rosary" ect, I said the Catholic faithful in so doing were " honouring the memory of Mary" as best they could.

But in looking in respect to what the scriptures ,I believe,reveal about Gods perspective I would point to Exodus 32:8 : Aaron has made ( at the request of the children of Israel) a molten calf,by whose strength ,they said " brought thee out of the land of Egypt "

By that physical means which the God of Israel brought salvation ( out of Egypt) to his people,this same people honoured the means ( the calfs ) rather than the praise due unto the power and that glory due unto the God of Moses.
It is my view that this is true of the Catholic perspective of that ( essential) role Mary played in Gods plan of Salvation.
The same can be seen with the physical means by which the children of Israel were healed by looking upon the " Brasen serpent that Moses had made"( 2Kings :4) and which was
Later “brake in pieces” because up until now " the children of Israel did burn incense to it"

So my answer to those who said my homage to" Mary" as a Catholic was worship in the eyes of God : would have to be yes.
To me now I would say that anyone or thing ,however Biblical in character, and standing before that veil that was" rent in twain "would in the eyes of God ,be an obstacle to entering therein.

 

[rcwitness]

Bernard,

The Church has understood the 12th chapter of Revelations to speak of 3 entities…

Israel, the Church, and Mary

In this way, these are also the bride of Christ. There is only one bride, one Church, one Mystical Body of Christ. Mary has been given a truly unique role in this union we have with one another. It is called Motherhood. Even though her motherhood can, and is, shared by many others who nurture the children of God, she is the unique foundation in profound grace. We believe in the two fold necessity of accepting God’s saving grace. This is through Sacrament and Belief! Mary was given the first Sacrament of Christ! The Incarnation!!! Now, we know that no one receives this unworthy. Mary was given a unique grace of redemption in order to bear the Son of God. This was not due to any merit on her part.

What Catholic practice of Marian devotion is intended to produce, is a recognition of the bond we have with one another. You cannot have a prayer devotion outside of the participation with Mary (Acts1:14). Mary’s prayers are for the mission of her Son. Yet, her prayers are not without merit. Her merit came by way of her belief (Luke1:45), and her heart was purified. Her heart was pierced. This is only done by way of willfully exposing our hearts to Him.

Our Father has given us His Son, yet His treasures are hidden. Mary kept these treasures in her heart. They are found in the Eucharist… His Eucharist is found through the Church. Humility, submission, and conversion is necessary to deepen into the hidden mysteries of Christ. Obedience to Christ (Rev.12:17) grants us a Mother. We cannot have God as our Father without having the Church as our mother. Mary and the Church are one and the same. This is hidden from the proud, because no pride was found in her. She helps us by example, by prayer and by her familial grace honoured to her by her Lord.

I dont have a specific devotion to Mary. Yet I do in natural Christian ways. I do believe some can have dysfunctional relationships with her. This is due to their own deception through disobedience to her Son. It is not because of the Teachings of the Church. They would find their own avenue of disobedience wherever they happen to find their source.

Peace
Michael