Former Catholics - Mary worship

[adf417]

Dear adf417. Yes, in my previous post on this subject ,I. was merely coming from a human perspective,that is as a former catholic who has in the past said the " Rosary" ect, I said the Catholic faithful in so doing were " honouring the memory of Mary" as best they could.

But in looking in respect to what the scriptures ,I believe,reveal about Gods perspective I would point to Exodus 32:8 : Aaron has made ( at the request of the children of Israel) a molten calf,by whose strength ,they said " brought thee out of the land of Egypt "

By that physical means which the God of Israel brought salvation ( out of Egypt) to his people,this same people honoured the means ( the calfs ) rather than the praise due unto the power and that glory due unto the God of Moses.
It is my view that this is true of the Catholic perspective of that ( essential) role Mary played in Gods plan of Salvation.
The same can be seen with the physical means by which the children of Israel were healed by looking upon the " Brasen serpent that Moses had made"( 2Kings :4) and which was
Later “brake in pieces” because up until now " the children of Israel did burn incense to it"

So my answer to those who said my homage to" Mary" as a Catholic was worship in the eyes of God : would have to be yes.
To me now I would say that anyone or thing ,however Biblical in character, and standing before that veil that was" rent in twain "would in the eyes of God ,be an obstacle to entering therein.

Thank you Bernard for your response. I can certainly understand this position, that is at least in a polytheistic culture. But now that we live in a monotheistic culture and where Jesus gave us Himself in body and blood I see the form of worship raised to a whole new level, thanks be to God.

Did you, when you were Catholic, believe or not believe in the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist? Was it, is it symbolic to you then or now?

Peace be with you?

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

Thank you Bernard for your response. I can certainly understand this position, that is at least in a polytheistic culture. But now that we live in a monotheistic culture and where Jesus gave us Himself in body and blood I see the form of worship raised to a whole new level, thanks be to God.

(1) Hi,I would disagree with you that the true children of Israel were in any way polytheistic in there understanding.Israel alone (beginning with Abraham ) were singled out and separated from among all( the idolatrous ) nations ,who were no doubt believers in many Gods or more likely as Paul discovered at Athens: devoted to the " unknown God".
But only Israel was the object of Gods favour and unique revelation .
The first revelation that was given( to Moses) was reiterated by Christ (Mark 12:29) " The first of all the commandments is,Hear O Israel ;The LORD our God is one LORD:"

I also do not believe that now, “we live in a monotheistic culture”.
If we single out those claiming a Christian profession alone: how diverse (in there views) one from another ;everyone “safe” in their own denomination .Thus plainly declaring to the “outside world” ( who themselves have many roads to God) that “Christians” indeed are worshipers of many Gods .

Did you, when you were Catholic, believe or not believe in the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist? Was it, is it symbolic to you then or now?

(2) I have posted a number my comments on the “Eucharist” on a thread currently on page one: " Real Presence Apologetics"

Peace be with you?

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

Bernard,

The Church has understood the 12th chapter of Revelations to speak of 3 entities…

Israel, the Church, and Mary

Peace
Michael

Hi Michael ,I would agree that this vision seen in chapter 12 speaks of your three entities.But as Paul the apostle says in Galations 6:16 :
“And as many as walk according to this rule,peace be on them,and mercy,and upon the Israel of God .”
That is all those born from above: who are seen in this vision :“a great wonder in heaven” (verse 1 ) Are there not pictured here both old and new testament saints included together?
Mary as part of that “Israel of God” is also no doubt included in the meaning of the vision.
But in her special role as mother of Jesus she has to have greater significance here.But so do the Godly woman such as Ruth in her day ; and in her obedience to Gods will,gave birth to what would also become ( later ) the human nature( through Obed) of the promise seed.
Should not “Eve the mother of all living” be include here too? For it is said of her seed(Genesis 3:15) “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman ,and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head ,and thou shalt bruise his heal”.

But the Roman Catholic belief that this vision can also be said to be an actual representation of “the Virgin Mary” I personally do not think the chapter shows.
For one the woman is seen" travailing in birth,and pained to be delivered"( verse2) but this is pictured in “heaven” not on earth where Mary the mother of Jesus was seen in childbirth “pained to be delivered”.
Another difficulty for me is seen in the last verse(17) of this chapter.
If this is actually Mary the mother of Jesus pictured here: then “the Dragon was wroth with the woman,and went to make war with the remnant of her seed”
How then do you explain your belief in Mary being “evervirgin” when it is said here that the woman( in the vision) continued in further child bearing after that is giving birth to the " man child " in verse 5?

Does not Isaiah say the redeemer shall come out of Zion; the apostle says ,he shall come out of Zion to the earthly Zion; had suffered there for us,and gone to the heavenly …that the Jerusalem which is above,is free,which is the mother of us all.

 

[mek42]

It is different. Have you ever asked a dear Christian friend to pray for you?

I am sure you are not worshiping him/her.

Of course not. Praying for someone is much different than praying to someone. Would you pray to your neighbor for your friend to overcome an illness? Yes, prayer is communication, but the common modern usage implies communication with the divine.

 

[Dorothy]

Of course not. Praying for someone is much different than praying to someone. Would you pray to your neighbor for your friend to overcome an illness? Yes, prayer is communication, but the common modern usage implies communication with the divine.

Asking another Christian who is in the Lord’s presence in heaven to pray for me and/or my intentions is not different than me asking a friend here on this earth to pray for me. We are family. I do not pray TO my neighbor, I ask him to pray for my intentions.

Praying to God (worship, praise, thanksgiving) should take up the larger amount of our prayer time. Petitionary prayer is not meant to be the entirety of our prayer.

Catholics are not forbidden to ask for intercession from angels and saints.

 

[Remember_Me]

I’m not a former Catholic, but I assumed that Catholics did worship Mary. I’ve watch stories on Unsolved Mysteries(love that show ) about apparitions/visitations of Mary and those stories kinda contributed to my assumption.

 

[marywarfield]

I’m a current not former Catholic. And I don’t consider
whether I “worship” Mary. When I honor Mary I honor
God. Period. And I love Mary as much as I love God.
Do I worship her? Don’t know as it is not real defined as a
dividing line between love and worship.
In so far as asking Mary to save me? Sure. If I’m drowning
at sea I would have no problem at all crying out
Holy Mother of God Save me and I rather doubt
that the “former” Catholics wouldn’t do it either.
Why?
At the wedding at Cana the bridal party asked Mary
about more wine and she asked Jesus. A sensible
person doesn’t stomp up to Christ and demand He
give them more wine. He is God. No in all humility
they asked Mary who ALSO didn’t begin demanding
God the Father give them more wine. She asked her Son
to intercede on behalf of the couple snd He did- through
His relationship with God the Father water was turned
into wine. Marian intercession in a nutshell.
Who are we to ask Christ to sit us next to Him at
the head of the table? Best to sit ourselves down next
to His Mother instead.

 

[jerusalemgifts]

It is called intercessory prayer…scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

And it is jewish in roots and origin:calledtocommunion.com/2012/08/relics-saints-and-the-assumption-of-mary/
The first real blow to this interpretation came when I read Peter Brown’s book, The Cult of Saints: Its Rise and Function in Latin Christianity.
Brown challenged my view that the place of saints and relics in the church was a mere holdover from paganism, and that the practice was somehow peripheral to true Christianity. Instead, Brown painted a picture of ancient Christianity and paganism in which relics were indispensable to the former, and repulsive to the latter. Far from a holdover from paganism, the place of relics in the Church appeared as something intensely Jewish, Hebraic, and Old Testament. Pagans, like Julian-the-Apostate, found the practice revolting and legislated against it. (Paganism, with its notions of ritual purity, had strictly delimited the realm of divine worship and neatly separated it from the realm of corpses and the dead.)

Shalom Pablope - I appreciate your response, but still - my question was to understand intersession (praying to Jesus or Abba Father through Mary) according to scripture - Old/New testament - I do not count Maccebees or Tobit as the Word of God.

It is something I truly would like to see / understand.

Holy Land Christian Gifts

 

[jerusalemgifts]

Can you show us where the Church tells us to pray to God through Mary?

As far as I know, we are encouraged to ask for her prayers on our behalf, yet that certainly doesnt mean we are not obligated to have personal and direct prayer to God.

When we pray, we are not praying alone! We are One Bride, with one faith. Mary is the mother of our Faith. This means she contains the pure faith from the outset of the New Covenant. Her desire has always been that of her son’s. She has been graced in a unique manner fitting to be called a mother by all who obey her Son!

Peace
Michael

Shalom Michael

Thank you for taking the time to rspond to my question - still, when you say “As far as I know, we are encouraged to ask for her prayers on our behalf” - It is this I am searching for in scripture…
Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians,%between% for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures%between% every day to see if what Paul said was true.%between%

 

[Dorothy]

I’m a current not former Catholic. And I don’t consider
whether I “worship” Mary. When I honor Mary I honor
God. Period. And I love Mary as much as I love God.
Do I worship her? Don’t know as it is not real defined as a
dividing line between love and worship.
In so far as asking Mary to save me? Sure. If I’m drowning
at sea I would have no problem at all crying out
Holy Mother of God Save me and I rather doubt
that the “former” Catholics wouldn’t do it either.
Why?
At the wedding at Cana the bridal party asked Mary
about more wine and she asked Jesus. A sensible
person doesn’t stomp up to Christ and demand He
give them more wine. He is God. No in all humility
they asked Mary who ALSO didn’t begin demanding
God the Father give them more wine. She asked her Son
to intercede on behalf of the couple snd He did- through
His relationship with God the Father water was turned
into wine. Marian intercession in a nutshell.
Who are we to ask Christ to sit us next to Him at
the head of the table? Best to sit ourselves down next
to His Mother instead.

What a great gift our Mother is! Our Lord is so generous for having given her to us while on the Cross.

Peace,

Dorothy, T.O.C. (Ancient Observance)

 

[Dorothy]

Shalom Michael

Thank you for taking the time to rspond to my question - still, when you say “As far as I know, we are encouraged to ask for her prayers on our behalf” - It is this I am searching for in scripture…
Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians,%between% for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures%between% every day to see if what Paul said was true.%between%

Perhaps this will help? It is biblical - foreshadowing Mary. It is about 12 minutes.

youtube.com/watch?v=lh_9rfknbQA

 

[pablope]

Shalom Pablope - I appreciate your response, but still - my question was to understand intersession (praying to Jesus or Abba Father through Mary) according to scripture - Old/New testament - I do not count Maccebees or Tobit as the Word of God.

It is something I truly would like to see / understand.

Holy Land Christian Gifts

If you looked at the first link from Scripture catholic…you will find explanations of intercession and quotes from the Early fathers of the Church further explaining and expounding on this.

As for Tobit and Macaebees…there are indeed part of the Bible…having been read in the Churches…since the start of Christianity in AD33, and was decided by the Church in various councils since AD382 or so.

Now may I ask…are you the one who decides what is the word of God?

 

[pablope]

Shalom Michael

Thank you for taking the time to rspond to my question - still, when you say “As far as I know, we are encouraged to ask for her prayers on our behalf” - It is this I am searching for in scripture…

 

[jerusalemgifts]

If you looked at the first link from Scripture catholic…you will find explanations of intercession and quotes from the Early fathers of the Church further explaining and expounding on this.

As for Tobit and Macaebees…there are indeed part of the Bible…having been read in the Churches…since the start of Christianity in AD33, and was decided by the Church in various councils since AD382 or so.

Now may I ask…are you the one who decides what is the word of God?

Thank you for your answer…

Regarding the Word of God, I do believe those who put together what we call the Bible - From Genesis to Revelation, were led by the Holy Spirit

 

[marywarfield]

What a great gift our Mother is! Our Lord is so generous for having given her to us while on the Cross.

Peace,

Dorothy, T.O.C. (Ancient Observance)

Why hello Dorothy! I was just considering this at Mass
today as I became aware I’m not living one day at
a time. Thank you St. James.
It seems a joyful thing that if we praise Mary God and Jesus
are happy.
And if we praise God Mary and Jesus are happy. And if we
praise Jesus God and Mary are happy. And if we praise all three
the angels are happy and if we praise the angels God
the Father and his saints ate happy and if we just
praise all of Heaven then everyone is tickled pink!
Are we so selfish and tightlipped we can only
make one person happy? Isn’t it better to please
all?

 

[Dorothy]

Why hello Dorothy! I was just considering this at Mass
today as I became aware I’m not living one day at
a time. Thank you St. James.
It seems a joyful thing that if we praise Mary God and Jesus
are happy.
And if we praise God Mary and Jesus are happy. And if we
praise Jesus God and Mary are happy. And if we praise all three
the angels are happy and if we praise the angels God
the Father and his saints ate happy and if we just
praise all of Heaven then everyone is tickled pink!
Are we so selfish and tightlipped we can only
make one person happy? Isn’t it better to please
all?

 

[pablope]

Thank you for your answer…

Regarding the Word of God, I do believe those who put together what we call the Bible - From Genesis to Revelation, were led by the Holy Spirit

Thanks, Jerusalem, I do hope your question on intercession has been answered.

As for the Bible…do you know who were the ones who put the Bible together? And when?

And those who put the Bible together…do you have their list of books/writings of what should be in the Bible?

Do you know some writings they considered that did not make it to the Bible? And do you know some writings that were initially rejected that made it to the Bible?

 

[jerusalemgifts]

Thanks, Jerusalem, I do hope your question on intercession has been answered.

As for the Bible…do you know who were the ones who put the Bible together? And when?

And those who put the Bible together…do you have their list of books/writings of what should be in the Bible?

Do you know some writings they considered that did not make it to the Bible? And do you know some writings that were initially rejected that made it to the Bible?

I do know that many writings were ‘rejected’ when putting together what we now call the Bible - I do not know what writings though

 

[GaryTaylor]

Yes, prayer is communication, but the common modern usage implies communication with the divine.

The problem is not worship/veneration, its correct application and understanding of the order of Grace, which is all Christ centered.

Could incorrect understanding lead to incorrect worship? Pretty much a straw-man.

A good example of this is Edgar Cayce. Here you find a Christian, biblical sound and memorized by age 12. Receives a vision of the Blessed Mother and his gift of healing proceeds from this event, so the legend and documentation goes. Yet look how this unfocused and un-centered worship proceeds. Cayce agrees with the Immaculate Conception and gives Christ and Mary two souls interconnected as one predestined from eternity. Yet he concedes Jesus is God and believes in reincarnation. Such goes the stories.

The problem is the same as always, its thinking and believing one is so blessed they were sent to correct Gods Church. Situations like Cayce are not uncommon, perhaps not to his degree. This is what occurs though with signal grace, which is intended to draw one into the Church, not start ones own Marion Kingdom. Nothing changes the order of Grace, this is the absolute kingdom of Jesus Christ.

On the other hand it is a continuity of going against the grain, the office of Mary is an established fact since Christ in the apostolic Church’s. Rome simply placed a good deal of emphasis on individual devotion which in truth correctly understood cannot be effectively practiced outside the Church, for communion and a state of grace is required “before” the devotion becomes a reality in correct worship of the Lord. Follow? You have to be correctly worshipping God in order to venture off in veneration and intercession through the Saints.

 

[adf417]

You have to be correctly worshipping God in order to venture off in veneration and intercession through the Saints.

Perfectly said Gary.

I often wonder about the people who look at Catholics as worshiping Mary, what is their thought on when; at the end of the Super Bowl the winning coach holds up the Lombardi Trophy and millions go wild in their excitement. Where this looks like worship to some people, the average Protestant would say exactly what you say above.

It is truly sad that elevating the Holy Eucharist is viewed in the same sense as the Lombardi trophy - just a symbol.

Peace!!!