Former Catholics - Mary worship

[pablope]

I do know that many writings were ‘rejected’ when putting together what we now call the Bible - I do not know what writings though

Some writings…Epistle of Clement to Corinth, Shepher of Hermas, Letter of Barnabas…here is a list of Early Christian writings…earlychristianwritings.com/

Some writings that were rejected early but made it to the Bible-Revelations, Hebrews, Epistle of James and Jude.

You said in an earlier post: Originally Posted by jerusalemgifts View Post
Shalom Pablope - I appreciate your response, but still - my question was to understand intersession (praying to Jesus or Abba Father through Mary) according to scripture - Old/New testament - I do not count Maccebees or Tobit as the Word of God.

Question for you…if those who put the Bible together decided that indeed Tobit and Maccabees are in the Bible…why do you say then that you do not consider them as the Word of God?

Here is the decree by Pope Damasus in AD 382: tertullian.org/decretum_eng.htm

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

Just a sample from Scripturecatholic:

The Bereans were of noble character in receiving the message of Christ with eagerness, not that they searched the OT everday.

Scripture mentioned here is the OT or the likely the Septuagint, not the Bible as you know it today.

Yes the Bereans received the word with eagerness or (KJV)" with all readiness of mind ,and searched the scriptures daily ,whether those things were so."
What words were they comparing with, as you rightly say : "the O T or the likely the Septuagint "? Was it not the words of the apostle Paul or in other words the NT Gospel message?

 

[pablope]

The Bereans were of noble character in receiving the message of Christ with eagerness, not that they searched the OT everday.

Scripture mentioned here is the OT or the likely the Septuagint, not the Bible as you know it today.

Well…let us look at the whole passage and the context:

First, where was Paul prior to being in Berea? In Thessalonica:

Acts 17
In Thessalonica

17 When Paul and his companions had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a Jewish synagogue. 2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said. 4 Some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a large number of God-fearing Greeks and quite a few prominent women.

5 But other Jews were jealous; so they rounded up some bad characters from the marketplace, formed a mob and started a riot in the city. They rushed to Jason’s house in search of Paul and Silas in order to bring them out to the crowd.[a]

The Jews rejected Paul’s message about Christ (see verse 2 and 3 above). Paul and Silas move on to Berea.

In Berea

10 As soon as it was night, the believers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. 11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. 12 As a result, many of them believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.

As the passages above say, the noble character of the Bereans was compared with that of those in Thessalonica. Besides, those in Berea were still Jews, not yet baptized, and no NT gospel in writing to compare it with. The rabbis had the Torah, which is what they searched for to verify Paul’s teaching about the Messiah and His suffering at the Cross.

For further reading here:
socrates58.blogspot.com/2010/04/thoughts-on-bereans-and-searching.html

The Bereans, on the other hand, were not adherents of sola scriptura, for they were willing to accept Paul’s new oral teaching as the word of God (as Paul claimed his oral teaching was; see 1 Thess. 2:13). The Bereans, before accepting the oral word of God from Paul, a tradition as even Paul himself refers to it (see 2 Thess. 2:15), examined the Scriptures to see if these things were so. They were noble-minded precisely because they “received the word with all eagerness.” Were the Bereans commended primarily for searching the Scriptures? No. Their open-minded willingness to listen was the primary reason they are referred to as noble-minded—not that they searched the Scriptures. . . .

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

pablope:
Well…let us look at the whole passage and the context:

First, where was Paul prior to being in Berea? In Thessalonica:

Acts 17
In Thessalonica

17 When Paul and his companions had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a Jewish synagogue. 2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said. 4 Some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a large number of God-fearing Greeks and quite a few prominent women.

5 But other Jews were jealous; so they rounded up some bad characters from the marketplace, formed a mob and started a riot in the city. They rushed to Jason’s house in search of Paul and Silas in order to bring them out to the crowd.[a]

The Jews rejected Paul’s message about Christ (see verse 2 and 3 above). Paul and Silas move on to Berea.

(1)Acts 17:4 " And some of them(Jews) believed"
Is it not these believing Jews that Paul is comparing with the “noble” Bereans ? If so then It appears his reason. Is that although these Jews from Thessalonica believed ( the Gospel message) yet it wasn’t with thorough ,diligent examination of that word of God,available to them.

In Berea

10 As soon as it was night, the believers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. 11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. 12 As a result, many of them believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.

As the passages above say, the noble character of the Bereans was compared with that of those in Thessalonica. Besides, those in Berea were still Jews, not yet baptized, and no NT gospel in writing to compare it with. The rabbis had the Torah, which is what they searched for to verify Paul’s teaching about the Messiah and His suffering at the Cross.

(2) Did the believing Jews at Thessalonica have NT gospel in writing or is there mention that they were baptized ?

The Bereans, on the other hand, were not adherents of sola scriptura, for they were willing to accept Paul’s new oral teaching as the word of God (as Paul claimed his oral teaching was; see 1 Thess. 2:13). The Bereans, before accepting the oral word of God from Paul, a tradition as even Paul himself refers to it (see 2 Thess. 2:15), examined the Scriptures to see if these things were so. They were noble-minded precisely because they “received the word with all eagerness.” Were the Bereans commended primarily for searching the Scriptures? No. Their open-minded willingness to listen was the primary reason they are referred to as noble-minded—not that they searched the Scriptures. . . .

(3) Acts 17:11 “These were more noble than those in Thessalonica in that they received the word with all readiness of mind,and searched the scriptures daily ,whether those things were so”
As the believing Jews in Thessalonica also received ( Paul’s) the word,then for me Paul’s comparison and contrasting the Bereans with them,would not make sense if as you say " Their open-minded willingness to listen was the primary reason they are referred to as noble-minded-" for they in both places did listen and believe but only in one did they search the scriptures to make sure!

I am sure you would agree that the apostle Paul ,as one born out of due season was ( and is) an exceptional instrument ,mightily used of God .How much is by his hand given to us in the writings of the NT.Galations 2:1,"Fourteen years " and more ,alone being instructed of the Lord; separated unto the Gospel.All this before the full commencement of his ministry,seen with Barnabas in the beginning of Acts.
To me then ,there is no difference in what he said in his preaching the word and what God used and preserved for future generation in Paul’s epistles.2Thess2:15.Since at the time ,the cannon of NT Scripture was not then complete ; I believe in this verse Paul is making both ( means of communication) equal and valid.

 

[pablope]

Brother…your replies as confusing…please learn how to use the quote function above in the reply box, next to the # button.

Well…let us look at the whole passage and the context:

Did you actually read the whole passage? Some jews believed…some did not…they wanted to stone paul and silas. Paul spent three sabbaths with them…is this not thorough to you? And after three sabbaths, what did they do?

They rejected Paul’s message…checked the OT scripture and concluded Paul and Silas were wrong.

(2) Did the believing Jews at Thessalonica have NT gospel in writing or is there mention that they were baptized ?

You are trying hard to prove sola scriptura, are you not?

And what NT gospel writing are you talking about? There was no gospel in written form at this point. It was all oral. Besides…would not have paul told the Thessalonicans to just read the written gospel if he had one?

As the believing Jews in Thessalonica also received ( Paul’s) the word,then for me Paul’s comparison and contrasting the Bereans with them,would not make sense if as you say " Their open-minded willingness to listen was the primary reason they are referred to as noble-minded-" for they in both places did listen and believe but only in one did they search the scriptures to make sure!

But the Bereans did not act like the those in Thessalonica. There were a few Jews and more Gentiles, it seems. The Bereans where also Jews…the bereans did not seek to throw and stone Paul and Silas…which is what made them more noble.

You seem to be trying to justify your long held belief that the Bereans were adherents of SS…which they were not.

For one thing, they have not heard of Christ prior to Paul…so what are they going to check for?

I think this is what you are trying to do…you are trying to rationalize your “tradition”:

Does this describe what you are trying to do:

calledtocommunion.com/2009/07/ecclesial-deism/

‘Tradition’ becomes whatever one agrees with in the history of the Church, such as the Nicene Creed or Chalcedonian Christology…What makes it ‘authoritative’ for Mohler is that it agrees with his interpretation of Scripture. If he encounters something in the tradition that seems extra-biblical or opposed to Scripture he rejects it. For that reason, tradition does not authoritatively guide his interpretation. His interpretation picks out what counts as tradition, and then this tradition informs his interpretation.

 

[vsedriver]

I also do not ask for intercession very often, and I’ve just never been a big “Mary guy”. Absolutely no disrespect intended; that just hasn’t been my thing…

Neither was I, until I did it the first time. I asked St. Joseph to intercede for me. Wow, what a result!

then I began to pray the rosary. Again, I was amazed at the change in me. the prayers of the righteous man avail much. I guess asking St. Joseph or the Blessed Virgin Mary to intercede for you can be very pleasing to God.

Doesn’t it please you when someone is nice to those you love?

 

[BlessedLDS]

I converted to the LDS Church six months ago. Last semester I took a course on Mary and the Church (I signed up for it before my conversion). We read a lot of Ratzinger and Von Balthasar on the subject of Mary. Wrote my final paper on Mary in the Scriptures (Old and New Testaments). It honestly made a compelling case for Marian devotion.

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

Are there any former Catholics here that can say you did worship Mary when you were Catholic? If not what do you say to those who believe you did?

Peace!!!

I’m watching the movie Man on Fire & right as I saw this thread, Pita Ramos’ father just said to the kidnapper, “I, too, worship the Virgin de Guadalupe”. Interesting timing.

I think the Orthodox have a stronger devotion to the Theotokos, she’s everywhere in our Liturgies and prayers. On the Comboschini, the prayer 2nd to the Jesus Prayer most commonly prayed on it is: Most Holy Theotokos, save us!" Catholics only pray for her intercession, while we actually pray to her directly for aid. But like Catholics, we only worship the Holy Trinity.

 

[Miriam1947]

I converted to the LDS Church six months ago.
. . .

You gave up the Eucharist? For bread and water? Why?

 

[marywarfield]

I converted to the LDS Church six months ago. Last semester I took a course on Mary and the Church (I signed up for it before my conversion). We read a lot of Ratzinger and Von Balthasar on the subject of Mary. Wrote my final paper on Mary in the Scriptures (Old and New Testaments). It honestly made a compelling case for Marian devotion.

You gave up the actual Presence of Our Lord,
living for you, humbled to become living bread
for you, in the Eucharist for what exactly?
How was Gid waiting patiently for you to visit
Him up close and personal not good enough?
How did He fail you?

 

[Mark121359]

I’m a current not former Catholic. And I don’t consider
whether I “worship” Mary. When I honor Mary I honor
God. Period. And I love Mary as much as I love God.
Do I worship her? Don’t know as it is not real defined as a
dividing line between love and worship.
In so far as asking Mary to save me? Sure. If I’m drowning
at sea I would have no problem at all crying out
Holy Mother of God Save me and I rather doubt
that the “former” Catholics wouldn’t do it either.
Why?
At the wedding at Cana the bridal party asked Mary
about more wine and she asked Jesus. A sensible
person doesn’t stomp up to Christ and demand He
give them more wine. He is God. No in all humility
they asked Mary who ALSO didn’t begin demanding
God the Father give them more wine. She asked her Son
to intercede on behalf of the couple snd He did- through
His relationship with God the Father water was turned
into wine. Marian intercession in a nutshell.
Who are we to ask Christ to sit us next to Him at
the head of the table? Best to sit ourselves down next
to His Mother instead.

What a great gift our Mother is! Our Lord is so generous for having given her to us while on the Cross.

Peace,

Dorothy, T.O.C. (Ancient Observance)

Good to hear two voices of reason who aren’t afraid to defend our good Mother! I have to admit, I run to her for almost everything. And I’ll also have to admit, that I’m in love with my Mama Mary! And I believe it’s a great gift, a great grace from God to have this love for her. And I thank Him for it daily. But I get the sense that to a great many of Catholics, they have become afraid or hesitant to show any kind of love for Mary. I feel that many have allowed this accusation of “Mary worship” to enter deep into their psyche, and in doing so, they’ve allowed this false accusation to do great harm to them whether they’ll ever admit this or not. Somehow, they’ve deceived themselves into thinking that any “excessive” attention given to her, is somehow displeasing or even offensive to God. And nothing, I repeat, nothing could be further from the truth. Saint Louis-Marie Grignion de Montfort nailed it when he said this of those who are critical of devotion to Mary; "Critical devotees cannot bear to see simple and humble people on their knees before an altar or statue of our Lady, or at prayer before some outdoor shrine. They even accuse them of idolatry as if they were adoring the wood or the stone." And again; "Scrupulous devotees are those who imagine they are slighting the Son by honouring the Mother. They fear that by exalting Mary they are belittling Jesus. They cannot bear to see people giving to our Lady the praises due to her and which the Fathers of the Church have lavished upon her. It annoys them to see more people kneeling before Mary’s altar than before the Blessed Sacrament, as if these acts were at variance with each other, or as if those who were praying to our Lady were not praying through her to Jesus. They do not want us to speak too often of her or to pray so often to her." Oh, how I see these two things said by De Montfort played out over and over and over again…and right here on this forum!

It’s my belief that it pleases God to no end, when you acknowledge, love and honor the “Masterpiece” that He created to bring forth His only Son. And by my way of thinking, she is indeed a masterpiece of the highest order! There is no doubt in my mind that she is the new Ark of the Covenant and should be rightly honored as such. These words written by Saint Therese of Lisieux to her cousin Marie Guerin May 30, 1889 in a letter ring very true to me. At the end of that letter she wrote; "Have no fear of loving the Blessed Virgin too much, you will never love her enough, and Jesus will be pleased since the Blessed Virgin is His Mother."…true indeed Little Therese!

Peace, Mark

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I’ve known many Catholics including family members and none ever “worshiped” Mary. I found this icon image on a Lutheran site. It is the blessed Mother as the ‘Burning Bush’; the ark of the Covenant.

 

[Dorothy]

Good to hear two voices of reason who aren’t afraid to defend our good Mother! I have to admit, I run to her for almost everything. And I’ll also have to admit, that I’m in love with my Mama Mary! And I believe it’s a great gift, a great grace from God to have this love for her. And I thank Him for it daily. But I get the sense that to a great many of Catholics, they have become afraid or hesitant to show any kind of love for Mary. I feel that many have allowed this accusation of “Mary worship” to enter deep into their psyche, and in doing so, they’ve allowed this false accusation to do great harm to them whether they’ll ever admit this or not. Somehow, they’ve deceived themselves into thinking that any “excessive” attention given to her, is somehow displeasing or even offensive to God. And nothing, I repeat, nothing could be further from the truth. Saint Louis-Marie Grignion de Montfort nailed it when he said this of those who are critical of devotion to Mary; "Critical devotees cannot bear to see simple and humble people on their knees before an altar or statue of our Lady, or at prayer before some outdoor shrine. They even accuse them of idolatry as if they were adoring the wood or the stone." And again; "Scrupulous devotees are those who imagine they are slighting the Son by honouring the Mother. They fear that by exalting Mary they are belittling Jesus. They cannot bear to see people giving to our Lady the praises due to her and which the Fathers of the Church have lavished upon her. It annoys them to see more people kneeling before Mary’s altar than before the Blessed Sacrament, as if these acts were at variance with each other, or as if those who were praying to our Lady were not praying through her to Jesus. They do not want us to speak too often of her or to pray so often to her." Oh, how I see these two things said by De Montfort played out over and over and over again…and right here on this forum!

It’s my belief that it pleases God to no end, when you acknowledge, love and honor the “Masterpiece” that He created to bring forth His only Son. And by my way of thinking, she is indeed a masterpiece of the highest order! There is no doubt in my mind that she is the new Ark of the Covenant and should be rightly honored as such. These words written by Saint Therese of Lisieux to her cousin Marie Guerin May 30, 1889 in a letter ring very true to me. At the end of that letter she wrote; "Have no fear of loving the Blessed Virgin too much, you will never love her enough, and Jesus will be pleased since the Blessed Virgin is His Mother."…true indeed Little Therese!

Peace, Mark

Yes! And we know that all the grace that Our Blessed Mother has comes from Jesus. And she had to be a woman of great faith, hope and love in order to grow and increase in that grace.

 

[andrewstx]

Thank you for your answer…

Regarding the Word of God, I do believe those who put together what we call the Bible - From Genesis to Revelation, were led by the Holy Spirit

You found one of my pet peeves. The Word of God is Jesus (see John chap 1). The bible is the word of God. Lower case w.

By promoting the bible to the “Word” you can be easily misunderstood as worshipping the bible as God, especially since the same chapter of John says “the Word is God”. Jesus is God, the bible is not God.

I was raised in a fundamentalist sect that worshipped the bible as God, and I have been sensitive on that subject ever since.

Catholics do not worship Our Lady Mary as God, but some fundamentalists do worship the bible as an idol.

In that sect I belonged to every single thing had to have permission from the bible to be valid to them, every single thing had to be “authorized” by the bible. No matter how trivial it was. They did not use or play musical instruments in worship. because it is not “authorized” by their paper and ink ‘god’.

 

[benjohnson]

It think it may be an act of God’s wisdom that I’m not Roman Catholic - I could image being so frustrated by the constant accusations of worshiping Mary that I’d probably be tempted into giving a snarky reply along the lines of “Of course I worship Mary! And this candle too!”

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

You are trying hard to prove sola scriptura, are you not?

And what NT gospel writing are you talking about? There was no gospel in written form at this point. It was all oral. Besides…would not have paul told the Thessalonicans to just read the written gospel if he had one?

Sorry if my quoting is not up to scratch: please be patient.

If you look closely you will see this question of mine is rhetorical in nature. It was in reply to your statement ( post 63) “Besides,these in Bereans were still Jews,not yet baptised ,and no N T gospel in writing to compare it with”.
My point being that the believing Jews in Thessalonica also were “not yet baptised,and(had) no NT gospel in writing to compare it with”.
So what is the point you are making here?

But the Bereans did not act like the those in Thessalonica. There were a few Jews and more Gentiles, it seems. The Bereans where also Jews…the bereans did not seek to throw and stone Paul and Silas…which is what made them more noble.

You seem to be trying to justify your long held belief that the Bereans were adherents of SS…which they were not.

For one thing, they have not heard of Christ prior to Paul…so what are they going to check for?

Again I would ask : does it say that the believing Jews at Thessalonica had heard of Paul,that is before actually hearing him in Acts17? So what is your point?

Would you agree that those (according to Acts 17:13 ) who persecuted Paul in Thessalonica when they heard Paul was preaching at Berea: “came hither also,and stirred up the people”
So much were the (unbelieving )Bereans were of the same character as those in Thessalonica and that Paul had to flee( for his life) there also?

If so why do you make a difference here as well?

I do believe you have a relevant point in connecting ( verse 11) the Berean’s " readiness of mind"( KJV) or as you have it: “received the word with all eagerness”, to a probably more satisfactory outcome but these also included men and women which were Greeks(verse 12)
“not a few”
So here again : the similarity.

 

[Holly3278]

I’m not a former Catholic but I am a former Baptist. There are some Baptists who believe Catholics worship Mary. I don’t recall what I believed about it when I was a Baptist.

But anyway, I always think its ridiculous when fundamentalists and others accuse Catholics of worshiping Mary. We are Christians and if we were worshiping Mary we would be violating the First Commandment. Do these fundamentalists really think that we would willingly violate the First Commandment as Christians?

Unfortunately there are some fundamentalists who don’t even believe that we’re Christians.

 

[Darryl_B]

Unfortunately there are some fundamentalists who don’t even believe that we’re Christians.

Isn’t that just a clever way to prevent their congregations doing a mass exodus to the Catholic Church.

 

[JonNC]

Isn’t that just a clever way to prevent their congregations doing a mass exodus to the Catholic Church.

While not in any way defending those who view Catholics in that way, I think it a leap to imply that they teach this because they are afraid they will lose members to the Catholic Church. I frankly think that plays no role in the thought process at all.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

I’m not a former Catholic but I am a former Baptist. There are some Baptists who believe Catholics worship Mary. I don’t recall what I believed about it when I was a Baptist.

But anyway, I always think its ridiculous when fundamentalists and others accuse Catholics of worshiping Mary. We are Christians and if we were worshiping Mary we would be violating the First Commandment. Do these fundamentalists really think that we would willingly violate the First Commandment as Christians?

Unfortunately there are some fundamentalists who don’t even believe that we’re Christians.

I can understand how you feel, being accused of believing or teaching something that you don’t. :sad_yes:

Jon