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Faithdancer
Guest
Well Mary could have said no. But I think God knew she would say yes, Him bein’ omniscient n’ all.Makes sense to me - as long as we don’t think about that free will thing.
Peace!!!
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dronald
Guest
The immaculate conception was free will?Makes sense to me - as long as we don’t think about that free will thing.
Peace!!!
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adf417
Guest
Yes, God indeed is omniscient! But that has nothing to do with Mary’s free will. He did know what her answer would be but he didn’t make here choose it. Similarly he knows what you are going to write on your next post in response to this, but look at all the clever options you have at THIS moment in time - before you actually click the “submit” button.Well Mary could have said no. But I think God knew she would say yes, Him bein’ omniscient n’ all.
Peace!!!
M
marywarfield
Guest
Immaculate Conception did not negate her free will.
She had free will and was free to choose for or against God.
She chose for God and did not abuse her free will.
Adam and Eve were immaculately created as well but
they did abuse their free will and sinned.
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Sochi
Guest
Wasn’t myself one of those, but knew one lady and a couple of clergy who were. Always thought the lady was weird, despite adulations about her “devotion.” Towards the end, she even dressed “like” her. She died of anorexia. The two clergy at our school were pretty quiet about it.
Good thing to remember that throughout history Mother worship was in some areas very prevalent. Might not be a bad idea, given that some say that civilization is a battle against testosterone, and we have a heavily and destructively patriarchal society, to have a good dose of that return to our public culture. Hopefully, not the BVM. Maybe Ishtar, Isis, (my fave,) or Neuth.
Good thing to remember that throughout history Mother worship was in some areas very prevalent. Might not be a bad idea, given that some say that civilization is a battle against testosterone, and we have a heavily and destructively patriarchal society, to have a good dose of that return to our public culture. Hopefully, not the BVM. Maybe Ishtar, Isis, (my fave,) or Neuth.
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Faithdancer
Guest
No, God didn’t force Mary and when I say she was chosen, it was at the beginning of time. I think He must have made her to be the kind of person who wouldn’t say no to a request from God, even though she could have. But only He knows.
And I would say prayer- which was touched upon earlier in this thread, is the ultimate expression of free will. God expects us to pray, but we have free will to make the choice not to pray. This, of course, is a bad choice. Imagine if Eve had prayed about picking the apple before she did it. Mary didn’t need to ask Gabriel for time to mull it over, to pray about becoming the Theotokos. Her decision was immediate and final. I think this is because she was the most perfect purely human being who ever lived, and the first Christian, so to speak.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Well, yes.
Eve was created without sin. . .but she sinned, didn’t she? Being made without sin didn’t keep her from freely ‘choosing’ to sin by making her some kind of robot.
Mary was likewise created without sin, but SHE freely chose NOT to sin.
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McCartney
Guest
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adf417
Guest
I cant wait the hear your explanation for what seems like a contradiction in the above statements.
BTW I don’t think I saw an answer to my question on post 186 which references one of these quotes. If you did please re-post or refer me to it.
Peace & Happy Easter brother!!!
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Duns Scotus overcame theological difficulties regarding Mary coming from her parents and inheriting Original Sin.
But he stated that Mary was especially made for Christ to be His mother, and for that, she was particularly saved and redeemed, and she was full of grace when she consented to becoming the Mother of Christ.
I guess from my faith tradition, to consider Mary to be Christ’s Mother implies much more about her uniqueness. That is what Protestants do not know and do not enjoy in the depth of faith and living in the Church. They miss out on so much of what it means to be in the communion of saints and to enjoy the sacred mysteries.
But he stated that Mary was especially made for Christ to be His mother, and for that, she was particularly saved and redeemed, and she was full of grace when she consented to becoming the Mother of Christ.
I guess from my faith tradition, to consider Mary to be Christ’s Mother implies much more about her uniqueness. That is what Protestants do not know and do not enjoy in the depth of faith and living in the Church. They miss out on so much of what it means to be in the communion of saints and to enjoy the sacred mysteries.
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Bernard_Lyons
Guest
Mary was indeed blessed ,or in a state of happiness,in regards to her being that chosen vessel whereby the eternal Son of God ,would clothe himself ,“And being found in fashion as a man.”
But that beautiful obedience that Mary ,in humility ,was wonderfully,found in submission to,was not I believe unique to her person.
Ruth for instance is beautifully found in subjection to her(spiritual) mother(in law) Naomi .
She was also a chosen vessel ( or channel) by which the promised seed should come.
Hannah with total abandonment ,as you will know ,committed ,and gave the( at that time,the only) fruit of her womb,unto The Lord: the child Samuel
Deborah ,called to a different ,but none the less vital submission ( to God) unto the salvation of Israel.
Of which salvation,( Judges 5) another women is marked out ( by scripture) verse 24:
“Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be,blessed shall she be above women in the tent”
And wherefore:this blessed state?
Verse25-26 “He asked water,and she gave him milk;she brought forth butter in a lordly dish.”
Code:
"She put her hand to the nail,and her right hand to the workman's hammer;and with the hammer she emote Sisera,she's mote of his head,when she had pierced and stricken through the temples"Hannah ,had already weened her “firstborn” and must have with great attachment handed him over( completely) to Eli ,the high priest.
Although Mary ,greatly risked her reputation ;Deborah and Jael the wife of Heber ,risked there very lives.
Catholics by making much “a do” about the wonderful role Mary was made to play,I believe,miss out on all the other aspects ,the great women of faith ,have mightily shown us in regards to how we should live :unto God.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Though I greatly respect the women of the Bible you mention, you are extraordinarily cavalier in your opinion about Mary’s obedience not being ‘costly’ to her.
Hannah’s son lived and died a prophet, reverenced by all. Jael and Deborah lived and died revered as well.
Mary saw her Son tortured and KILLED, and while we don’t know for certain, she probably spent the rest of her life after His resurrection living a life of hiding.
I can tell you aren’t a mother (perhaps not a father either) if you can think that Mary’s only risk was to her reputation as a teen, and that her seeing her Son crucified and dead wasn’t all that bad compared to a woman who saw her son cared for and honored (Hannah) and a woman who was accused of infidelity but TRIUMPHANTLY exonerated and going on to the highest office of her people. . .
You are really going to compare the fiat of a woman who consented to bear, and CARE FOR, the Son of God, and who saw Him put to death, as being ‘just another good woman’ and in fact, not nearly as praiseworthy as some others?
Wow.
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Dorothy
Guest
Double wow!
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marywarfield
Guest
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MartinJordan
Guest
If Catholics/and Orthdoxy didn’t make much do, there would be no Bible to speak of either so… A lack of respect for the Church which allowed you to even read about the great women of faith, one misses on out on** All aspects of the Good News**.
MJ
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EIF5A
Guest
This isn’t how God willed it, but even if Mary lived as an earthly queen with all the grandeur and splendor of earthly riches and suffered not a single moment of sorrow, she is still the Mother of God, and no other person can even come close to that sort of honor.
That honor is distinctly and precisely due to her unique connection to her Divine Son, Jesus Christ.
If God Himself willed it to be born of a woman, to speak as if that is some commonplace grace appears to downplay the superior, hidden, divine plan of the Person from Whom the grace derives.
That honor is distinctly and precisely due to her unique connection to her Divine Son, Jesus Christ.
If God Himself willed it to be born of a woman, to speak as if that is some commonplace grace appears to downplay the superior, hidden, divine plan of the Person from Whom the grace derives.
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Richard_Feynman
Guest
He that is the greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled: and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. (Matthew 23:11, 12 DRA)
This seems to be pretty clear to me…
Richard Feynman
This seems to be pretty clear to me…
Richard Feynman
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Brandall
Guest
I agree with your assessment that there were many great women that were faithful to their God. What it boils down to for me is for what purpose was Mary made? That is the key to me.
Looking back a bit in history, God commanded the Israelites build the Ark of the Covenant. It was made of incorruptible wood, covered in gold and had gold statues on it. This was to hold tablets made of stone, the high priests rod and a gold jar of a bread from heaven.
What did Mary hold? The incarnate God, the high priest, the Word of God and the bread of life. Do you really not think that God was very particular about how she was constructed? No one knows how old she was at the time that her womb was blessed with the wonderful fruit that give us life but it is guessed that she was 14-16 years old. In that time, we aren’t talking about a young girl being “shamed” for adultery, they killed them violently. By agreeing to whatever God asked, she was putting her earthly life at risk.
Did God make all of these women, those that you note of the old testament and Mary, for a particular purpose? I think so, in fact, I think it was all planned before “In the beginning”. Before “In the beginning”, God had planned to make something worthy to hold what it did and God isn’t one to cut corners. He’s very particular about many things and I’m certain he was very particular about the one that he created to be the God Bearer.
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Richard_Feynman
Guest
Yes!
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Faithdancer
Guest
Upon further review (as they say in the NFL), I guess I did “worship” Mary when I attended the Catholic church, since I did pray to Mary, and prayer is worship. However, I wasn’t thinking of it that way at the time and I don’t pray to Mary anymore so…error fixed!
Happy Easter! He is risen indeed!
Happy Easter! He is risen indeed!
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