Former Catholics - Mary worship

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Upon further review (as they say in the NFL), I guess I did “worship” Mary when I attended the Catholic church, since I did pray to Mary, and prayer is worship. However, I wasn’t thinking of it that way at the time and I don’t pray to Mary anymore so…error fixed!🙂
Happy Easter! He is risen indeed!
Prayer, in the English language means to make a request. If you read through some legal briefs, you will see the term is still in use.

Catholics do in fact, pray to Mary (make a request that she prays for them) and do in fact pray to God (Make requests and communicate with him.)

You’re right, that to many, it has become known as only to communicate with a deity but that doesn’t change it’s original meaning. You will soon be pummeled with examples, from others, of pray and prayer in the English language that have nothing to do with “worshiping” or communicating with a deity.
 
Upon further review (as they say in the NFL), I guess I did “worship” Mary when I attended the Catholic church, since I did pray to Mary, and prayer is worship. However, I wasn’t thinking of it that way at the time and I don’t pray to Mary anymore so…error fixed!🙂
Happy Easter! He is risen indeed!
🍿
 
Upon further review (as they say in the NFL), I guess I did “worship” Mary when I attended the Catholic church, since I did pray to Mary, and prayer is worship. However, I wasn’t thinking of it that way at the time and I don’t pray to Mary anymore so…error fixed!🙂
Happy Easter! He is risen indeed!
Happy Easter!

Meanwhile, do you ask others to pray for you? Pray means ask too you know.

MJ
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faithdancer forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Upon further review (as they say in the NFL), I guess I did “worship” Mary when I attended the Catholic church, since I did pray to Mary, and prayer is worship. However, I wasn’t thinking of it that way at the time and I don’t pray to Mary anymore so…error fixed!🙂
Happy Easter! He is risen indeed!
Prayer, in the English language means to make a request. If you read through some legal briefs, you will see the term is still in use.

Catholics do in fact, pray to Mary (make a request that she prays for them) and do in fact pray to God (Make requests and communicate with him.)

You’re right, that to many, it has become known as only to communicate with a deity but that doesn’t change it’s original meaning. You will soon be pummeled with examples, from others, of pray and prayer in the English language that have nothing to do with “worshiping” or communicating with a deity.
And of course pleadings [a prayer] are what we call the legal documents …

Pray … means simply to ask … that some Christians have determined the word to mean only communication with God does not forever change the definition of the word …

Whenever any person is summoned to court - they plead before the court - they pray before the court / judge and expect that their prayer will receive an answer …

Origin

Middle English (in the sense ‘ask earnestly’): from Old French preier, from late Latin precare, alteration of Latin precari ‘entreat’.

The Church is 2000 years old - its language changes very slowly … this is a good thing because of its universal and worldwide influence … .Americans are far more upset and narrow focused on the word ‘pray’ then others … I believe that comes from ignorance [that is not stupidity … nor an insult] …they just do not know or understand the more archaic uses of the word and how connected that ancient use is in the Christian experience - lived out in the Catholic, Orthodox and other more liturgical and older Christian traditions … 🤷

I do not worship Mary nor any Saint … nor do I worship my friends when I request them to pray for my intentions … they do not worship me when they pray that I ask our Lord to answer their needs …

Jesus asked us to pray without ceasing and to pray for each other …

Jesus gave us His Mother for our Mother - while he hung on the cross for our sins … like John - we are called to being Mary into our homes …

Similarly - Jesus is the God of the living and not the dead … we belong to the Communion of Saints … through the ages … 👍
 
And of course pleadings [a prayer] are what we call the legal documents …

Pray … means simply to ask … that some Christians have determined the word to mean only communication with God does not forever change the definition of the word …

Whenever any person is summoned to court - they plead before the court - they pray before the court / judge and expect that their prayer will receive an answer …

Origin

Middle English (in the sense ‘ask earnestly’): from Old French preier, from late Latin precare, alteration of Latin precari ‘entreat’.

The Church is 2000 years old - its language changes very slowly … this is a good thing because of its universal and worldwide influence … .Americans are far more upset and narrow focused on the word ‘pray’ then others … I believe that comes from ignorance [that is not stupidity … nor an insult] …they just do not know or understand the more archaic uses of the word and how connected that ancient use is in the Christian experience - lived out in the Catholic, Orthodox and other more liturgical and older Christian traditions … 🤷

I do not worship Mary nor any Saint … nor do I worship my friends when I request them to pray for my intentions … they do not worship me when they pray that I ask our Lord to answer their needs …

Jesus asked us to pray without ceasing and to pray for each other …

Jesus gave us His Mother for our Mother - while he hung on the cross for our sins … like John - we are called to being Mary into our homes …

Similarly - Jesus is the God of the living and not the dead … we belong to the Communion of Saints … through the ages … 👍
VERY well said! Thank you! 👍
 
Interesting stuff! Well, the CCC calls prayer worship, as do Protestant theologians, so just to be safe I pray directly to God. But I don’t suppose there is any harm in sincerely praying to Mary, in the belief that she hears your prayer.🙂
 
Interesting stuff! Well, the CCC calls prayer worship, as do Protestant theologians, so just to be safe I pray directly to God. But I don’t suppose there is any harm in sincerely praying to Mary, in the belief that she hears your prayer.🙂
Thank you for your openness and understanding Faithdancer! 👍 I will assume with what you write on this post then the previous statement of…
But only He knows.
…is a true statement. 👍

Peace be with you!!!
 
Interesting stuff! Well, the CCC calls prayer worship, as do Protestant theologians, so just to be safe I pray directly to God. But I don’t suppose there is any harm in sincerely praying to Mary, in the belief that she hears your prayer.🙂
I just read the whole prayer portion of the catechism… Where did you find that? I’m curious.
 
Sorry, I meant the USCCB. Their discussion of prayer is part of their larger “exegesis” if you will on prayer and worship. I think it’s pretty clear that they consider prayer to be part of worship, or an act of worship.
usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/
usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/prayers/what-is-prayer.cfm
I honestly don’t believe people are going to disagree. Prayer is part of worship. But does that mean it can only be part of worship? No. I don’t think so. As others have pointed out, you pray to someone whenever you ask them to pray for you. That doesn’t mean you worship that person… That would make no sense.

I can point to song as the easiest example to this logic. Song is a part of worship. Does that mean, whenever we sing, we worship God? I still don’t think so. When Catholics sing the Ave Maria, we aren’t worshipping Mary, we are honoring her by singing about her. When a person songs about drugs, are they worshipping the drugs? No.

I hope I’m contributing in a helpful way to this thread! 🙂

Richard Feynman
 
I honestly don’t believe people are going to disagree. Prayer is part of worship. But does that mean it can only be part of worship? No. I don’t think so. As others have pointed out, you pray to someone whenever you ask them to pray for you. That doesn’t mean you worship that person… That would make no sense.

I can point to song as the easiest example to this logic. Song is a part of worship. Does that mean, whenever we sing, we worship God? I still don’t think so. When Catholics sing the Ave Maria, we aren’t worshipping Mary, we are honoring her by singing about her. When a person songs about drugs, are they worshipping the drugs? No.

I hope I’m contributing in a helpful way to this thread! 🙂

Richard Feynman
Perhaps, then, there should be prayer with a capital P, to distinguish it from prayer as in “I pray you” directed to another human being- lower case p.🙂
 
Perhaps, then, there should be prayer with a capital P, to distinguish it from prayer as in “I pray you” directed to another human being- lower case p.🙂
I disagree again with your limits on love and worship.
Either love God unreservedly or stop fiddling about is
how I see it.
If you love Him with all your heart you will love
EVERYTHING as He does and everything created by Him,
for Him and through Him. All of His is precious. Everything
He does is worthy of adoration and worship. He has
done nothing that is not worthy of adoration and worship.
And should be treated so.
It seems to me that you are reluctant to just love
Him completely so you are busy looking for loopholes
in people, actions, semantics.
 
Perhaps, then, there should be prayer with a capital P, to distinguish it from prayer as in “I pray you” directed to another human being- lower case p.🙂
I beg to differ. An extension of this logic would be to put an upper case first letter on all true homonyms and a lower case first letter on their counterparts to distinguish between definitions. The definition is derived from context. 🙂

Richard Feynman
 
I was being a bit facetious with the upper vs. lower case p thing. Prayer to me is for God, and God alone. 'Nuff said!🙂

Still not responding to ad hominems, btw.🙂
 
I was being a bit facetious with the upper vs. lower case p thing. Prayer to me is for God, in His three persons of the Holy Trinity. 'Nuff said!🙂

Still not responding to ad hominems, btw.🙂
Oops. 😊 Could you please elaborate on the ad hominem thing? I know what it is… I just don’t know how it relates to what we are discussing. :confused:
Thanks!

Richard Feynman
 
I was being a bit facetious with the upper vs. lower case p thing. Prayer to me is for God, and God alone. 'Nuff said!🙂

Still not responding to ad hominems, btw.🙂
You are to love Him with all your heart mind and soul
and your neighbor as yourself.
This is the commandment not an ad hom. You don’t get
to choose what part of Him you love and don’t love
like he’s a tray of appetizers.
If you accept He created you and breathed HIS Spirit
(not yours) into you quite reasonably you must love, adore
and worship His Spirit in every person around you
as well.
You have simply spent the entire thread telling us
all how you can’t do that and it makes no
sense to us how you can worship God while refusing to
actually do so.
 
“Jesus said, love the Boss with every sinew and every saddle you got.” Matthew 22:37, Cowboy Bible

Now, where’s that cowboy smiley up in h’yar?:hmmm:
 
Interesting stuff! Well, the CCC calls prayer worship, as do Protestant theologians, so just to be safe I pray directly to God. But I don’t suppose there is any harm in sincerely praying to Mary, in the belief that she hears your prayer.🙂
I will share a view with you of why catholics/orthodox pray to Mary and the saints:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=11012687#post11012687

In hierarchical terms, Mary (human) is higher than us, but infinitely lower than Christ (God and man).

Since the ancients understood their lowliness in relation to God much better than we do, they naturally were attracted to the 100% human mother, whereby Christ could be accessed through her compassion and lowliness. Men knew they were lowly and unworthy. Mary was a human being, sharing in our lowliness. Yet she was also the Mother of God, and she had her son’s ear! Thus, many were instinctively drawn to approach God through His mother.

Today, man is arrogant. We don’t understand our own unworthiness in relation to God. Thus, for many, praying through Mary to Christ is not intuitive. But to men of the 1st and 2nd centuries, and later, it was just common sense. This Tradition has been handed on for 2000 years. But that is why Protestants don’t don’t “get it”, because their theology and spiritual practices have their roots in the 15th century, rather than in the ancient Traditions of The Church
 
Though I greatly respect the women of the Bible you mention, you are extraordinarily cavalier in your opinion about Mary’s obedience not being ‘costly’ to her.

Hannah’s son lived and died a prophet, reverenced by all. Jael and Deborah lived and died revered as well.

Mary saw her Son tortured and KILLED, and while we don’t know for certain, she probably spent the rest of her life after His resurrection living a life of hiding.

I can tell you aren’t a mother (perhaps not a father either) if you can think that Mary’s only risk was to her reputation as a teen, and that her seeing her Son crucified and dead wasn’t all that bad compared to a woman who saw her son cared for and honored (Hannah) and a woman who was accused of infidelity but TRIUMPHANTLY exonerated and going on to the highest office of her people. . .

You are really going to compare the fiat of a woman who consented to bear, and CARE FOR, the Son of God, and who saw Him put to death, as being ‘just another good woman’ and in fact, not nearly as praiseworthy as some others?

Wow.
Tantrum ergo
It was not my intention ,to relegate ,the role of Mary ,the mother of Jesus ,below that esteem,meet ;and honour due ,and appropriate to ,those other great women of faith ,referred to in my last post.

Being ,as always,imperfect in my ways,it perhaps was very possible ,for you ,to miss my intended context : in relation to my comparing these other great women ;and their faith, with that of Mary’s .

The point at which Mary is seen to risk her reputation,is prior to ,and during her pregnancy.
As Joseph too,agreed with; and submitted to God’s will ,prior to the birth of Jesus,then this risk( to her reputation) was somewhat diminished through his God ordained role ,and was found " with Mary his espoused wife,being great with child." (Luke 2:5)

It is within the context of this period ,where ,my comparison was intended ,and I believed,restricted to.

Yes,I count myself blessed indeed,that such a one,not worthy " of the least of all " his “mercies” ,as I am ,should be father to two children ,both with cerebral palsy ; and wheelchair users.
They have suffered greatly in there young lives.The boy,especially :who the good Lord ,(from my perspective) has on several occasions,all but taken from me.

I can conceive of no greater trial to ones faith ,than ,to look upon ,as your suffering son,is near the point of death,and not be able to provide relief; nor be able to rescue him.

So in no small measure ( Praise the Lord!) I know what it is to have “a sword pierce” my heart also,and enter in ,thereby.

Mary the mother of Jesus had her unique role( with much sufferings) to play; but so did all the other holy women of faith too.

My intention was comparison ,not to make any ( Mary included) ,to be any less (or more) significant.

Catholic teaching however does ,yet again, exult one above the other ,and that,I believe where scripture does not.(see Matt 12:47-50)

This is nowhere more noticeable in the RC claim,regarding : that " woman " ,seen in Revelation 12, Is Mary the mother of Jesus.

Where I believe ,the woman seen is meant to encompasses :all the great woman of Faith (both OT and NT)

Have not Catholics ,in this interpretation ,elevated Mary ,to this very place ,where ,for me ,
the figurative " woman" ought to have remained?
 
Mary was a human being. A great one, yes, but still a human being. I may pray for other human beings, but not to other human beings. Jesus Himself taught us in the Lord’s Prayer to pray directly to God, not to other human beings- not even to His mother, saintly though she was. 🙂
 
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