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dronald
Guest
Fascinating.
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adf417
Guest
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rcwitness
Guest
I can only speak for myself…
When I am praying, I am never praying to Mary alone. I pray to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, therefore I am kneeling before Him.
Mary is in a perfected state before Jesus Christ. I cannot speak to Mary outside prayer with Jesus! I do not understand many Marian devotions in the world of Catholicism. They are private devotions. I do not go beyond what is written (Catholic Teaching) and what is practiced through the Mass.
I do not have a “Marian Devotion” nor do I expect to in the future. I simply honor her as a most cherished Christian and in my prayer devotion, I ask her for her assistance (intercession to Jesus). Occassionally, I am inspired by a Saint who I ask for their prayers as well.
If Mary appeared to me (even in a non-miraculous manor) I would bow in reverence to her Holy Motherhood in Christ (which is not merely being impregnated by the Spirit, but believing and showing a most transparent faith). But this is easy to do. It is showing honor to the lesser ones that is a realistic duty we have every day.
Paz de Cristo
Michael
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Bernard_Lyons
Guest
Mary,Mary,
Firstly ,I was not reading Luke chapter one in the context of ( as you seem to claim) “present
Standards” but according to the wording of the scriptural record.
What objections to you hold in this context ? That is ,the undeniable distinction and usage of “the Lord” and “my Lord”?
Secondly,for your text comparison,(for me) to have any significance ,or bearing on my findings:
(1) The RC ( or your) position in regards to Joseph,would need to be the same as your claim in regards to his wife Mary(in Luke 1)
That Joseph is being called ( by RC’s) “The father of God”.
(2) And me :attempting to prove other wise!
But since this distinction ( in Luke 2:48) is so obvious ,I doubt whether you would consider it to be questionable.
Especially in the KJV ,as it has it "my Fathers business " that is Capital ‘F’.
S
SyroMalankara
Guest
There is nothing wrong with that Title for St. Joseph: catholic.com/blog/michelle-arnold/joseph-the-father-of-god
As St. Joseph was Jesus’ earthly foster father, however, the title Theotokos (God-bearer; Mother of God) holds a higher esteem due to its recognition by all the world’s bishops through an Ecumenical Council as early as the 300s.
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marywarfield
Guest
Your attempt to obscure is laudable but fails. Most
Bibles have Father capitalized but this was a cut and paste
from the Internet.
In any case, the only reason anyone thought to capitalize
it was because they already knew the whole story Bernard.
You see the capitalizing came much later.
Yet you accept that everyone knew at that very moment
and the author of the Gospel assumes YOU know
Jesus is talking about his heavenly Father which of
course the text does not make clear.
Same issue as with Elizabeth crying My Lord.
The reality is Bernard that unless you knew the whole
story you would think in OT terms just like father.
However we do know the story and know she is talking
about THE Lord.
Yes it is the same thing and a problem with literal
interpretations.
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benhur
Guest
Took a look thank you. Not bad stuff to think about ( most of it-doubt the ever-virgin stuff)) . Men can not multi task during a conversation though . So, I guess contemplating the mysteries for a moment between “sets” is OK but once the Hail Mary is started it’s laser focus on the words of the prayer.
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marywarfield
Guest
Really? One of the best insights I’ve ever had during
the Rosary was on the Transfiguration. Maybe
I’m weird but I probably don’t think about Mary
much during the Risary but that is because probably
the Hail Mary is so memorized.
I can wonder if Buddhists would agree with you on that?
They apparently “multi task” as well.
But hey isn’t that a sign of intelligence? Multi tasking?
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adf417
Guest
This is exactly why conversation should not be considered worship.
God knows our limitations in conversations and in vocabulary, therefore I trust God looks deep into my heart and will know what I meant to convey with my words or subsequent tasks.Peace!!!
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Doug_Kraeger
Guest
Many times Catholics are in church where we believe God is present in a special way, under the form of bread and wine but truly present in His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. If you believed you were in the real presence of God as we do: would you be on your knees, prostrate on the floor, or sitting back relaxed, drinking a beer, telling bad jokes, or what? Since we have the habit of praying to God through Mary at Church, on our knees, we do the same at other times, but not all the time. Sometimes we pray and you could not know by looking at us. As long as we are trying to Honor Her the way God honors Her, I do not believe God cares a lot about our bodies position. It is the will and the heart that He wants and He always gets what He wants (CCC 275)
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Per_Crucem
Guest
The angels seem to disagree.
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Bernard_Lyons
Guest
Again we see or should I say do not see( scriptural authority) any precedent for this claim ,at least you point to man’s tradition as your foundation.
But being a ‘foster father’ myself,and with all due respect to “all the world’s bishops”, I believe it to be a great insult to foster parents everywhere to imply an inferiority due to blood ties: that is 'esteemed ’ in a lesser light ,the opposite could be and in my experience often is the case.
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SyroMalankara
Guest
Why is pointing to “Divinely Revealed” Traditions by the same bishops who compiled the Bible* you use today, any less precedent? (*almost the Bible you use really is man’s recent tradition and not by Divinely Revealed nor recognized by Church consensus).
Besides, who implied “inferiority”? St. Joseph is in fact given a pre-eminent place by God and the Church among men.
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marywarfield
Guest
Wow! You had to work really hard to make an insult out of Syro’s statement.
why?
In any case not sure of the relativity unless you believe you are the
foster father of God’s only Son?
I also at times wonder how much the objection to veneration of
Mary and Joseph is due to simple envy?
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marywarfield
Guest
“One day a colleague of mine heard the devil say during an exorcism: “Every Hail Mary is like a blow on my head. If Christians knew how powerful the Rosary was, it would be my end.” The secret that makes this prayer so effective is that the Rosary is both prayer and meditation. It is addressed to the Father, to the Blessed Virgin, and to the Holy Trinity, and is a meditation centred on Christ.” Father Gabriel Amorth, Chief Exorcist of
the Holy See. 2003.
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marywarfield
Guest
Bernard Lyons
Special devotion to St. Joseph is also an early
Christianity practice just like devotion to the Blessed
Mother. First devotions to Joseph known factually
occur in the 300sAD not surprisingly among the
Coptic Christians in Egypt.
The problem with Protestants rejecting these traditions
such as Purgatory, veneration of Saints etc is you end
up rejecting almost all the activities and beliefs of
not just present day Catholics but the earliest Christians as well.
So it is sort of Protestants reject the beginning and the
end but not the middle.
preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Ioseph.html
“Gracious St. Joseph, protect me and my family from all evil as you did the Holy Family. Kindly keep us ever united in the love of Christ, ever fervent in imitation of the virtue of our Blessed Lady, your sinless spouse, and always faithful in devotion to you. Amen.”
Special devotion to St. Joseph is also an early
Christianity practice just like devotion to the Blessed
Mother. First devotions to Joseph known factually
occur in the 300sAD not surprisingly among the
Coptic Christians in Egypt.
The problem with Protestants rejecting these traditions
such as Purgatory, veneration of Saints etc is you end
up rejecting almost all the activities and beliefs of
not just present day Catholics but the earliest Christians as well.
So it is sort of Protestants reject the beginning and the
end but not the middle.
preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Ioseph.html
“Gracious St. Joseph, protect me and my family from all evil as you did the Holy Family. Kindly keep us ever united in the love of Christ, ever fervent in imitation of the virtue of our Blessed Lady, your sinless spouse, and always faithful in devotion to you. Amen.”
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marywarfield
Guest
And finally we can’t deny the Mother of my Lord
uttered by Elizabeth without denying another
theophany or manifestation of the Holy Spirit.
CCC
717 "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John."89 John was "filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb"90 by Christ himself, whom the Virgin Mary had just conceived by the Holy Spirit. Mary’s visitation to Elizabeth thus became a visit from God to his people.91
uttered by Elizabeth without denying another
theophany or manifestation of the Holy Spirit.
CCC
717 "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John."89 John was "filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb"90 by Christ himself, whom the Virgin Mary had just conceived by the Holy Spirit. Mary’s visitation to Elizabeth thus became a visit from God to his people.91
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Bernard_Lyons
Guest
Mary ,I hope you don’t mind me saying this ,but you certainly have a great name for this field of war(fare) but I pray it may be said on my part , and believe you would like it also to be said of you ,that this warfare was not merely against 'flesh:
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood,but against principalities,against powers,against the rulers of the darkness of this world,against spiritual wickedness in high places”(Ephesians 6:12)
Now back to the field ,Mary.
I believe my KJV predates the advent of the inter net (revolutionary though it may be),by at least 380 years but it is still true men were instrumental in the inclusion of my capital ‘F’,never the less it is my conviction that the KJV in my view ,has been greatly used by the Spirit of God,and this at the onset ,with its ‘Textus Receptus’ foundation.
So the inspiration of the original Greek cannot be separated from the same God ( if I am correct) who preserved most of the original content ,through those he had chosen ,also to translate ,and for me ,through the textus receptus.
Take for example your own passage ( Luke 2:48-49) in the KJV ,as well as capital ’ F’ we see the little word ’ ye’ being used ,which indicates a plurality in number.
“And he said unto them” notice unto them ( plural)
“How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father’s business ?”(49)
In addressing Joseph and Mary ‘wist ye’ ,Jesus could not have been talking of,and meaning Joseph who he was there and then addressing ( together with Mary)
The same for me is also true of your point in Luke chapter one ,although we have the advantage of the NT to read as a whole,which Elizabeth and Mary did not, it is still ,for me the God inspired ( for me KJV) original words that are captured ,which clearly show to us ,that for those who uttered them then,there is a clear distinction and difference in their understanding ,by the use of ’ my Lord’ , and ‘the Lord’.Clear I say ,when one looks at the immediate context.
This is verified,for me,by for example,your other passage in Luke 2, where Mary and Joseph,are still earthbound in their understanding of who the real Father of Jesus was ,not to mention that true ministry,or work,given to him of his Father to do .The Lord of Glory.
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Cathy_in_Oregon
Guest
I was away from the Church for many years (an agnostic). Then I went to a Protestant church, and finally returned to the Faith.
The answer is simple: “No Catholic ever worships Mary. I challenge you to find ONE person who ever did! The fact the some Catholics pray in front of a statue is to help them focus their prayer, just as Protestants sometimes have a Cross in their churches; but they aren’t praying to the cross!”
The answer is simple: “No Catholic ever worships Mary. I challenge you to find ONE person who ever did! The fact the some Catholics pray in front of a statue is to help them focus their prayer, just as Protestants sometimes have a Cross in their churches; but they aren’t praying to the cross!”
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marywarfield
Guest
I’m sorry all this KJV stuff is so irrelevant to the discussion
that it completely obscures the point.
If you could re-state your proposition without the
various segues that would be appreciated.
Cause, frankly, Bernard this post made no sense to
me at all. What are you discussing?
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