Former Catholics - Mary worship

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.For me all translations based on these Texts, can be compared ,one with another and with the original Greek still available.
You yourself ,must of necessity place your trust ,in your own translation .
Translation are translations, while Interpretations are Interpretations.

We search the Scriptures in the frame of what has already been established through Church Interpretation. Not all subtle meanings and hidden wisdom has been illuminated in the written Word. We feed on this because it gives us joy. It is limitless fountain.

Bernard, we truly have this communion in common. But an authorative Interpretation must hold us accountable. That doesn’t mean this authority can or has interpreted all meanings, but what it has interpreted cannot be contradicted.
 
The difference is in the basis of believe. Catholics believe in the Bible and Sacred Traditions, while non-Catholics believe only on the Bible.
Venerating Mary as part of liturgy like in the Rosary, is not in the Bible but in Sacred Traditions.
The protestant dilemma is whether the Sacred Traditions are necessary for salvation or the Bible alone is sufficient. Sacred traditions emerged after 100 AD, and so one wonders whether the Christians of between 30AD - 100AD had the full faith as they were deficient of the emergent Traditions. If the grace before the Sacred Traditions was sufficient, then the Traditions would not be of paramount importance for a Christian.
Most of the apostles including Peter died while Mary was still alive and so they never venerated her. Their faith was valid as per the teaching of the time. By then, even Jesus saying he was the Son of God was blasphemy, let alone venerating a person, and a woman since Jews were male oriented.
Welcome to the forum.

The Rosary is not part of the Liturgy.

How do you conclude that Sacred Tradition (which is oral Tradition) arose in 100AD?
 
Wow! You had to work really hard to make an insult out of Syro’s statement.
why?
In any case not sure of the relativity unless you believe you are the
foster father of God’s only Son?

I also at times wonder how much the objection to veneration of
Mary and Joseph is due to simple envy?
Firstly Mary ,I was not comparing myself with Joseph and his " blessed " and Godly role .
It was Syro’s quote ,that was certainly weighing in the balance ,the respective roles of Mary and Joseph: exalting Mary( in the usual fashion) above that of her husband Joseph.
And for what reason ?

Yes Mary was the precious means by which 'the Son of God " was clothed with flesh.
But the word of God does not ,I believe ,elevate Mary " the mother of Jesus " and her precious and blessed role ,over that EQUALLY ,valuable and honourable ,ROLE ,Joseph “his father” was to play ,and that on account of flesh and blood: you do .

It was the ( foster) fathers role and love,I was comparing : which in my experience in Adoption and fostering .This loving role ( through God’s grace) compared to the natural father( mother) ,flesh and blood, can and does ,as far as the heaven is above the earth ,as foster parent :can and often times does exceed a mere fleshly tie.

This was my context and no ‘insult’ to Syro( or her post) ,was ever intended.

In my opinion ,it is apparent by your elevation of ‘Mary’ above all flesh( save her son) that it is envy of a female persuasion that is at question here: not that of the male.
 
Yes Mary was the precious means by which 'the Son of God " was clothed with flesh.
But the word of God does not ,I believe ,elevate Mary " the mother of Jesus " and her precious and blessed role ,over that EQUALLY ,valuable and honourable ,ROLE ,Joseph “his father” was to play ,and that on account of flesh and blood: you do .
I don’t think the intentions of the Church, nor is it in her authority, to ‘elevate’ Mary anywhere.

What the Church has done is recognize both what God has done through her and how she conformed herself to God’s will. I see a particular recognition of this in Scripture

Luke 2:51
“And he went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was obedient to them; and his mother kept all these things in her heart.”

Why does Luke specifically say Mary kept these things in her heart? Joseph was involved in the incedent(s) just like her. But Mary was Full of Grace unlike Joseph. Joseph was a righteous man indeed, but was he glorified in the same way Mary was? Did Scripture record that his soul magnify God?

So again, I don’t think the recognition and honor the Church gives to Mary is because she was more of a parent to Jesus. Her Motherhood to Jesus was both in the flesh and in the Spiritual ministerial way, which is how all Christians after her share in her motherhood. But motherhood and fatherhood are very different. We as Christians, are all ‘feminine’ in relation to God, because we receive Him… He does not receive us.
 
Firstly Mary ,I was not comparing myself with Joseph and his " blessed " and Godly role .
It was Syro’s quote ,that was certainly weighing in the balance ,the respective roles of Mary and Joseph: exalting Mary( in the usual fashion) above that of her husband Joseph.
And for what reason ?

Yes Mary was the precious means by which 'the Son of God " was clothed with flesh.
But the word of God does not ,I believe ,elevate Mary " the mother of Jesus " and her precious and blessed role ,over that EQUALLY ,valuable and honourable ,ROLE ,Joseph “his father” was to play ,and that on account of flesh and blood: you do .

It was the ( foster) fathers role and love,I was comparing : which in my experience in Adoption and fostering .This loving role ( through God’s grace) compared to the natural father( mother) ,flesh and blood, can and does ,as far as the heaven is above the earth ,as foster parent :can and often times does exceed a mere fleshly tie.

This was my context and no ‘insult’ to Syro( or her post) ,was ever intended.

In my opinion ,it is apparent by your elevation of ‘Mary’ above all flesh( save her son) that it is envy of a female persuasion that is at question here: not that of the male.
It is God who elevates Mary, not me Bernard. I for one
have no intention of insulting His judgement.
 
Jesus said:
Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
And also in the gospel of Mark
Mar 3:33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
Mar 3:34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mar 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
You seem to have interpreted that as though Jesus was not recognizing the holiness of His mother.
 
New members need to carefully read and observe CAF rules concerning inter-denominational discussion.
If you are here with an agenda, you will be gone.
 
Where, exactly, is this found?

Matt: 4:10
Luke 4:8

Not according to Jesus.

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind.
 
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curt_anders:
Curt,

Is English not your primary language? You seem to have missed some nuances when people reply to you, and your misquoting Scriptures out of any context to ‘proof text’ is easily dismissed.
 
Curt,

Is English not your primary language? You seem to have missed some nuances when people reply to you, and your misquoting Scriptures out of any context to ‘proof text’ is easily dismissed.
I am not English. But show me where I misquote scripture.
 
Cube2;11972883]The difference is in the basis of believe. Catholics believe in the Bible and Sacred Traditions, while non-Catholics believe only on the Bible.
Your bible is the product of sacred tradition. Your bible reminds us to embrace apostolic tradition: " So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us."
Venerating Mary as part of liturgy like in the Rosary, is not in the Bible but in Sacred Traditions.
The Rosary is not part of the Mass. By the way, sola scriptura is found nowhere in your bible.
The protestant dilemma is whether the Sacred Traditions are necessary for salvation or the Bible alone is sufficient.
Nowhere does the bible tell you that your bible alone is sufficient.

Sacred tradition does not save you; Salvation comes from Jesus’ atoning work on the cross, as per the Catholic Church.
Sacred traditions emerged after 100 AD, and so one wonders whether the Christians of between 30AD - 100AD had the full faith as they were deficient of the emergent Traditions.
Don’t just say it; support that claim with facts!!! 👍

Your bible was not even codified until the 4th century, by the CC.
If grace before Sacred Traditions was sufficient, then the Traditions would not be of paramount importance for a Christian.
Grace via the Sacraments, e.g. baptism (outward action giving way to inward grace) within Jesus’ church is what draws us near to Jesus.

Why are you OK with the following 16th century man-made tradition: sola scriptura?
Most of the apostles including Peter died while Mary was still alive and so they never venerated her.
If you mean venerate, as in worship, then of course they did not. if you mean love, respect and honor Mary, then of course they did. If not then prove it?

Catechism of the CC: The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."516 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.517
Their faith was valid as per the teaching of the time. By then, even Jesus saying he was the Son of God was blasphemy, let alone venerating a person, and a woman since Jews were male oriented.
Worship God alone, as per the CC. 👍
 
I’ve never been anything other than Lutheran, so perhaps my answer doesn’t fit here. But I think it’s important to portray others correctly…

If a former Roman Catholic ever thought that they were worshiping the Blessed Virgin, then they were not well-catechized. Asking someone to pray for us, whether they are alive on earth or living in heaven, is not the same as worshiping them. Besides, asking the saints triumphant for their intercession has precedent from the earliest days of Christianity.

I personally do not pray to the saints (I simply take solace in the fact that they are continually praying for us).
I agree with you… come to think of it, in our country an extremist group teaches that if their members die fighting for the faith, they will get 72 women in paradise. Surprisingly people believe it and join the group in droves not even bothering to research on the truth or the basis of the teaching.
When people don’t try to understand the basis of a believe, its easy to get led astray.
I have a strong background of Catholic and was well catechized. The difference came when I dug on the facts and the basis of believe.
 
Bernard: I do not understand why St. Joseph’s role has largely been ignored by most priests in the past. Maybe it is now God’s time to reveal more of that important role. I wrote in post 425 I want to honor Joseph and Mary exactly as God does, nothing more, nothing less. God as Creator of all things, all space and time and everything else, can have only one, single, infinite, always in the present tense thought, Word, and therefore God is always thinking only one single infinite thought and His way of Honoring Joseph and Mary does not change. In all that He did as man, Jesus Christ perfectly conformed His human will to God’s infinite, Divine Will and therefore revealed it. Jesus Christ honored Joseph and Mary with the love, honor and obedience of a perfect Son and that was God’s eternal changeless Will. If you want to contend that God’s will is transient in time, that God thinks one thing at one time but something else later on, make that explicit claim. My God has only one single infinite thought, Word, and He honors Joseph and Mary eternally as Jesus revealed. This is an unfathomable mystery and may be why Lucifer said “He would not serve”. Do you believe the teaching of the Catholic Church in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 600) that all time is present in its immediacy to God and therefore 2000 years ago is always present to God?
CCC 314 states that “when we see God face to face and partial knowledge ceases” we will know all the ins and outs of God’s grace and I say then we will know how God did everything while eternally honoring Joseph and Mary the way Jesus revealed was God’s will while He lived in their home.

I believe we should focus on the truth, that is Jesus Christ Who is all Truth, infinite Truth. Jesus revealed the infinite Divine always in the present tens Will of God in all that He did as a man , including all that He did in loving, honoring , and being subject to Joseph and Mary. Mary was also subject to St. Joseph. Mary and Joseph knew that Jesus, Son of the Father, Son of the Most High God, must have the same infinite nature as God the Father. The Jews all knew that to claim to be the Son of God was to claim equality with God as the Jews tried to stone Jesus when He revealed this truth to them. Joseph and Mary did not doubt that Jesus was the Son of God, they marveled that God would be Subject to Joseph as the Head of the Family because they knew that God’s thought does not change like the thought of men. They knew that God’s thought must be infinite and without change and therefore God was revealing to them that God is eternally subject to them and eternally honors them the way Jesus did as a little child. This is an unfathomable mystery, but if we assume it is not correct, if we assume that God’s thought is transient in time, then God is no longer truly the infinite, unchanging God.
At Fatima, in 1917, Mary appeared and promised in July, August and Sept. that she would come in October and perform a miracle. She also promised in August and September that Joseph and the Child Jesus in October, would also come and give peace to the world. I have never heard much talk about this aspect of Fatima. Do you think maybe the devil does not want people to know that God so honors St. Joseph that He is going to give His peace to the world through the Blessings of St. Joseph with the Child Jesus to emphasize the fact that God eternally honors Joseph and Mary by being subject to them? Is your God infinitely powerful enough to do this: to turn the whole blessed world right side up, by peaceful means, through the blessings of St. Joseph as Head of the family with all the old testament obligations of the Head of the Family?
If all the saints in heaven have all knowledge because God has given them the infinite graces needed to be like God because they see Him as He IS, and all the Saints in heaven are united with Jesus in interceding for us by offering Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross for all sinners (combined with any meritorious actions on their part while in this world (Collossians 1:24)) then all the saints see and know how Jesus eternally honors St. Joseph with love, honor and obedience and how Joseph responded to all His obligations as a father to God and all the saints will know whether or not God the Holy Spirit took one seed from the loins of St. Joseph, purified it of all “damage” from original sin and by a pure act of God used it to fertilize the egg of the Blessed Virgin Mary even though they had no carnal relations. Is your God powerful enough to take one sperm cell from a human, transport it through space and use it for His eternal work? Does this contradict anything in scripture? Could God have done this in obedience to Joseph and Mary’s prayer (for at least nine days?) that they were totally at the disposal of God and anything they had was His for the taking, that they were all His? We do not want to honor Mary more or less than Joseph. we want to honor each exactly as God eternally does, as one.
 
Your bible is the product of sacred tradition. Your bible reminds us to embrace apostolic tradition: " So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us."

Well, yes the apostolic tradition. Paul had started many churches and he had taught them by word of mouth while with them and later sent letters t o them. From what we know today, Paul had written 13 letters to different Churches and his message was the same i.e centrality of Jesus, and righteousness that comes from faith. When commissioning Timothy, he gives him clear instructions as an affirmation of what he had told him verbally. This is what is apostolic TRADITION. Peter, John and James wrote too what they would have said verbally, also apostolic TRADITION. The Catholic Traditions contradicts 100% with the apostolic tradition as we can deduce from the writings of the Apostles.

The Rosary is not part of the Mass. By the way, sola scriptura is found nowhere in your bible.

During mass, the prayer of, “Hail Mary full of grace, blessed are you among women…” is recited. Also Mary is mentioned many times in Mass. Sola scriptura is to guard from emergent heretic teaching as one can come with a teaching which is contradictory to the apostolic teaching.

Nowhere does the bible tell you that your bible alone is sufficient.

As I had said, the apostles would present the message of Christ to the people and would later send them a letter with written instruction as an affirmation of what they had taught them verbally. Its just like what mothers say to their daughters during a wedding, “remember to keep what I have taught you” that means the good morals. If such a mother was to send a letter to her daughter, it would mirror on her virtues.

Sacred tradition does not save you; Salvation comes from Jesus’ atoning work on the cross, as per the Catholic Church.

In the book of Revelation which was written last, Jesus himself sends apostle John to individual churches with different names with clear instructions. Catholic or ‘universal’ church referred to the religion of the Roman Empire. Read edict of Thesaloniki.
By universal, it meant Christianizing all religions for all. By the way, the Roman Empire extended to North Africa, to Iraq (Babylon) and Europe. All the former religions of all these lands are extinct. But India which was not pat of Roman Empire still has its ancient religion.

Don’t just say it; support that claim with facts!!! 👍

Your bible was not even codified until the 4th century, by the CC.

Great that we have a reference for the message of salvation. However, the Jews had the Torah and the prophets from where Jesus quoted.
Its good that we have a reference with which we can refer for accuracy of the teachings.

Grace via the Sacraments, e.g. baptism (outward action giving way to inward grace) within Jesus’ church is what draws us near to Jesus.

Its not in sola scriputura, so prove it from the traditions.

Why are you OK with the following 16th century man-made tradition: sola scriptura?

Which is better, a tradition which you cant verify or a written code you can refer to?
If traditions would not improve my righteousness before God, than they are not necessary.
If the thief on the cross was justified by believing in Jesus and confessing that he is the son of God, then the message in the bible is sufficient. By the way he did not even get baptized.

If you mean venerate, as in worship, then of course they did not. if you mean love, respect and honor Mary, then of course they did. If not then prove it?

Catechism of the CC: The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."516 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.517

Traditions have dates; when did the church start to honor the blessed virgin with special devotion?
an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.517
Prove it with facts.

Worship God alone, as per the CC. 👍
 
Well, yes the apostolic tradition. Paul had started many churches and he had taught them by word of mouth while with them and later sent letters t o them. From what we know today, Paul had written 13 letters to different Churches and his message was the same i.e centrality of Jesus, and righteousness that comes from faith. When commissioning Timothy, he gives him clear instructions as an affirmation of what he had told him verbally. This is what is apostolic TRADITION. Peter, John and James wrote too what they would have said verbally, also apostolic TRADITION. The Catholic Traditions contradicts 100% with the apostolic tradition as we can deduce from the writings of the Apostles.
What do you mean when you say: the Catholic Traditions contradict 100% with the apostolic tradition as we can deduce from the writings of the Apostles?
During mass, the prayer of, “Hail Mary full of grace, blessed are you among women…” is recited. Also Mary is mentioned many times in Mass. Sola scriptura is to guard from emergent heretic teaching as one can come with a teaching which is contradictory to the apostolic teaching.
The Mass is all about worshipping God, with the Holy Eucharist being the source and summit, and sure Mary and the saints are mentioned. We are on the same page; cool!

I agree, scripture (not scripture alone via individual intepretation) is used to guard from emergent heretic teaching as one can come with a teaching which is contradictory to the apostolic teaching?

Scripture cannot interpret itself obviously, so who was charged with the mission of determining if a teaching is contradictory to the apostolic teachings? Not me, that is for sure…LOL
As I had said, the apostles would present the message of Christ to the people and would later send them a letter with written instruction as an affirmation of what they had taught them verbally. Its just like what mothers say to their daughters during a wedding, “remember to keep what I have taught you” that means the good morals. If such a mother was to send a letter to her daughter, it would mirror on her virtues.
Sounds good. :thumbsup:However, nowhere does the bible tell you that your bible alone is sufficient.
By universal, it meant Christianizing all religions for all. By the way, the Roman Empire extended to North Africa, to Iraq (Babylon) and Europe. All the former religions of all these lands are extinct. But India which was not pat of Roman Empire still has its ancient religion.
Which is why Ignatius of Antioch, student of the apostles, used the word catholic to describe Jesus’ church. 👍
Which is better, a tradition which you cant verify or a written code you can refer to?
How do you know that the written code has not been altered in some way, as you claim about tradition?

If the Holy Spirit is not guiding the Catholic church into all truth then neither sacred tradition nor sacred scripture can be trusted, in terms of being the authentic word of God. We believe that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit, and that the HS continues to preserve truth within Jesus’ church, ergo: "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, (God) come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal.Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own “always, to the close of the age”
If traditions would not If traditions would not improve my righteousness before God, than they are not necessary., than they are not necessary.
All catholic traditions are found either explicitly or implicit, in sacred scripture. 👍

Would you suggest that reading scripture is all you need to improve your righteousness before God?
If the thief on the cross was justified by believing in Jesus and confessing that he is the son of God, then the message in the bible is sufficient. By the way he did not even get baptized.
The thief on the cross making it to heaven is one of my favorite passages! This simply means, thank God, that Jesus is not confined to the sacraments, that he instituted, such as Baptism or the the Eucharist: ". Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

As a sola scriptura advocate you must limit yourself to scripture alone, and nowhere does scripture alone suggest that the bible alone is sufficient, not even implicitly. Something similar to James 1:4 would suffice: “Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything” i.e. something like: let scripture alone finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

Even if scripture did say what you suggest, (scripture alone via each persons interpretation) it still does not deny the Church’s authority to teach doctrinal truth and settle doctrinal disputes when they occur, just as they did in the early CC councils i.e. sola scriptura is not a denial of the role of the Holy Spirit in terms of guiding, enlightening and preserving doctrinal truth within Jesus’ Catholic Church, and the HS accomplishes this via fallible sinners, like the apostles and their successors.

Regarding our blessed mother Mary, as per scripture, it’s reasonable to conclude that the apostles were the first to honor Jesus’ mother, Mary.👍
 
Cube2
During mass, the prayer of, “Hail Mary full of grace, blessed are you among women…” is recited. Also Mary is mentioned many times in Mass. Sola scriptura is to guard from emergent heretic teaching as one can come with a teaching which is contradictory to the apostolic teaching.
Cube,

Do you realize that “Hail Mary Full of Grace, blessed are you among women” is a direct quote from the Scriptures??? 🤷

Luke Chapter 1
26 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And he came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace,e] the Lord is with you!”
42 and she exclaimed with a loud cry,
“Blessed are you among women
, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!

And, the only time I’ve heard that spoken at Mass is when those Scriptures were the readings of that Mass. The Rosary prayer is not prayed at Mass. I dont think Mary is mentioned more than once or twice in a typical Mass, but is there something wrong with mentioning her? She had a big role in the Gospels 🤷

If you ‘feel’ like the Catholic faith is Teaching something contradictory to the Apostles Teaching, please research and ask in here what the Church is actually Teaching and why. You will usually get lots of good answers with references to what is written.

Cube, if you really would like to stay in this forum, and lots of good Christians here certainly would like you to, I sincerely suggest examining your accusations.
 
Bernard: I do not understand why St. Joseph’s role has largely been ignored by most priests in the past. Maybe it is now God’s time to reveal more of that important role. I wrote in post 425 I want to honor Joseph and Mary exactly as God does, nothing more, nothing less. God as Creator of all things, all space and time and everything else, can have only one, single, infinite, always in the present tense thought, Word, and therefore God is always thinking only one single infinite thought and His way of Honoring Joseph and Mary does not change. In all that He did as man, Jesus Christ perfectly conformed His human will to God’s infinite, Divine Will and therefore revealed it. Jesus Christ honored Joseph and Mary with the love, honor and obedience of a perfect Son and that was God’s eternal changeless Will. If you want to contend that God’s will is transient in time, that God thinks one thing at one time but something else later on, make that explicit claim. My God has only one single infinite thought, Word, and He honors Joseph and Mary eternally as Jesus revealed. This is an unfathomable mystery and may be why Lucifer said “He would not serve”. Do you believe the teaching of the Catholic Church in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 600) that all time is present in its immediacy to God and therefore 2000 years ago is always present to God?
CCC 314 states that “when we see God face to face and partial knowledge ceases” we will know all the ins and outs of God’s grace and I say then we will know how God did everything while eternally honoring Joseph and Mary the way Jesus revealed was God’s will while He lived in their home.
Thank you for your impressively well written reply Doug.You highlight( as a RC) some
Interesting and important aspects : that is ,in relation to Joseph and his wife Mary ,and that mutual respect ,they both have (and still do) received ,in his Love and mercy,from our eternal and unchanging God(in three persons).

Yes ,God the creator is over and above ,and greater than all that which he has created,which includes that which we term time.
As you will know ,even before anything was made,God in eternity past,knew all the works he would perform in the course of time,that is ,from the first,to the last day ,which he would cause to come to pass: in the creation of the world.

“Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world”(Acts 15 :18)

Compared to his habitation and dwelling in eternity ,on earth ," one day “is likened to “a thousand years”, and a thousand years as " one day”.

So It is not at all my assertion ,that God in the mystery of unfathomable,and wondrous foreknowledge would alter one iota ,that which he has from eternity decreed ,should come to pass in the process of time.

But would you accept Doug, that we see in the RC devotions to ‘Mary’ a role outside of time,or as you said of my understanding ," God’s will is transient in time", even that after her time on earth had come to an end:the Eternal God had an altogether different purpose with and through her?

That is ’ Mary Queen of Heaven " ?
 
Bernard: I do not understand why St. Joseph’s role has largely been ignored by most priests in the past. Maybe it is now God’s time to reveal more of that important role. I wrote in post 425 I want to honor Joseph and Mary exactly as God does, nothing more, nothing less. God as Creator of all things, all space and time and everything else, can have only one, single, infinite, always in the present tense thought, Word, and therefore God is always thinking only one single infinite thought and His way of Honoring Joseph and Mary does not change. In all that He did as man, Jesus Christ perfectly conformed His human will to God’s infinite, Divine Will and therefore revealed it. Jesus Christ honored Joseph and Mary with the love, honor and obedience of a perfect Son and that was God’s eternal changeless Will. If you want to contend that God’s will is transient in time, that God thinks one thing at one time but something else later on, make that explicit claim. My God has only one single infinite thought, Word, and He honors Joseph and Mary eternally as Jesus revealed. This is an unfathomable mystery and may be why Lucifer said “He would not serve”. Do you believe the teaching of the Catholic Church in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 600) that all time is present in its immediacy to God and therefore 2000 years ago is always present to God?
CCC 314 states that “when we see God face to face and partial knowledge ceases” we will know all the ins and outs of God’s grace and I say then we will know how God did everything while eternally honoring Joseph and Mary the way Jesus revealed was God’s will while He lived in their home.

I believe we should focus on the truth, that is Jesus Christ Who is all Truth, infinite Truth. Jesus revealed the infinite Divine always in the present tens Will of God in all that He did as a man , including all that He did in loving, honoring , and being subject to Joseph and Mary. Mary was also subject to St. Joseph. Mary and Joseph knew that Jesus, Son of the Father, Son of the Most High God, must have the same infinite nature as God the Father. The Jews all knew that to claim to be the Son of God was to claim equality with God as the Jews tried to stone Jesus when He revealed this truth to them. Joseph and Mary did not doubt that Jesus was the Son of God, they marveled that God would be Subject to Joseph as the Head of the Family because they knew that God’s thought does not change like the thought of men. They knew that God’s thought must be infinite and without change and therefore God was revealing to them that God is eternally subject to them and eternally honors them the way Jesus did as a little child. This is an unfathomable mystery, but if we assume it is not correct, if we assume that God’s thought is transient in time, then God is no longer truly the infinite, unchanging God.
At Fatima, in 1917, Mary appeared and promised in July, August and Sept. that she would come in October and perform a miracle. She also promised in August and September that Joseph and the Child Jesus in October, would also come and give peace to the world. I have never heard much talk about this aspect of Fatima. Do you think maybe the devil does not want people to know that God so honors St. Joseph that He is going to give His peace to the world through the Blessings of St. Joseph with the Child Jesus to emphasize the fact that God eternally honors Joseph and Mary by being subject to them? Is your God infinitely powerful enough to do this: to turn the whole blessed world right side up, by peaceful means, through the blessings of St. Joseph as Head of the family with all the old testament obligations of the Head of the Family?
If all the saints in heaven have all knowledge because God has given them the infinite graces needed to be like God because they see Him as He IS, and all the Saints in heaven are united with Jesus in interceding for us by offering Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross for all sinners (combined with any meritorious actions on their part while in this world (Collossians 1:24)) then all the saints see and know how Jesus eternally honors St. Joseph with love, honor and obedience and how Joseph responded to all His obligations as a father to God and all the saints will know whether or not God the Holy Spirit took one seed from the loins of St. Joseph, purified it of all “damage” from original sin and by a pure act of God used it to fertilize the egg of the Blessed Virgin Mary even though they had no carnal relations. Is your God powerful enough to take one sperm cell from a human, transport it through space and use it for His eternal work? Does this contradict anything in scripture? Could God have done this in obedience to Joseph and Mary’s prayer (for at least nine days?) that they were totally at the disposal of God and anything they had was His for the taking, that they were all His? We do not want to honor Mary more or less than Joseph. we want to honor each exactly as God eternally does, as one.
Your suggestion that God could have “purified” Joseph’s sperm and used it to fertilize Mary’s egg is unique. Never heard that one before. But in that case would Jesus then be the Son of the Father or the son of Joseph? Even if you say fertilization would be done without carnal relations, it’s still the sperm of Joseph.

Arturo
 
…all the saints will know whether or not God the Holy Spirit took one seed from the loins of St. Joseph, purified it of all “damage” from original sin and by a pure act of God used it to fertilize the egg of the Blessed Virgin Mary even though they had no carnal relations. Is your God powerful enough to take one sperm cell from a human, transport it through space and use it for His eternal work? Does this contradict anything in scripture?
:rolleyes:… That is quite an imagination. I personally think that does contradict the divinity of Jesus. Jesus is not a “purified” man. Nor is He a new creation. He is the Son of God who took on the flesh of man from Mary. Joseph was His Legal earthly father.

Joseph was more of a spiritual mother to Jesus than a spiritual father. All of His Church is likened to a bride who Spiritually bears Gods offspring, but only God gives new life.

PS. It does raise the question of who Jesus looked like. He must of had some physical resemblence to Mary. 😉
 
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