Former Catholics - Mary worship

[FathersKnowBest]

John 7:24 “Judge not according to the appearance,but judge righteous judgement”

Hi,FathersKnowBest,
If Catholics believe this to be a literal flesh that Jesus wanted them to eat and literal blood which was to be drunk(John 6) then I could just as easily accuse this interpretation as being a means whereby justification for murder ( eats - present tense- my body) is being advocated.

Yes, the pagans of old had this same misunderstanding and leveled very similar charges (cannibalism) against the first Christians.

Not only so, but with these words ,a comprehensive endorsement by Jesus has been given for what has been on every cannobil’s plate ever since they were uttered ;and a hearty ‘Amen’ has been said to such a nutritional delicacy as this.

From Wikipedia:
Accustomed to public displays of religion, pagans found the private practices of Christians highly suspect; it was often believed that they committed flagitia, scelera, and maleficia[3]—outrageous crimes, wickedness, and evil deeds. Specifically, Christians were most frequently accused of cannibalism and incest – “Thyestian banquets and Oedipodean intercourse”[4]—due to their practices of eating the “blood and body” of Christ and referring to each other as “brothers” and “sisters”.

It is against such charges that St. Justin Martyr wrote the first and second recorded Christian Apologia.
Apology against Propaganda

The Christians were being accused of cannibalism and sexual immorality.

From St. Justin’s Apology:
No one may share the Eucharist with us unless he believes that what we teach is true, unless he is washed in the regenerating waters of baptism for the remission of his sins, and unless he lives in accordance with the principles given us by Christ.

We do not consume the eucharistic bread and wine as if it were ordinary food and drink, for we have been taught that as Jesus Christ our Savior became a man of flesh and blood by the power of the Word of God, so also the food that our flesh and blood assimilates for its nourishment **becomes the flesh and blood of the incarnate Jesus by the power of his own words **contained in the prayer of thanksgiving.

What about those believers among the Gentiles who were being instructed ( Acts 15:20) “write unto them,that they abstain from pollutions of idols…from fornication… and from blood”
After all that we were warned of the dangers,are we then to drink( his ) blood?

Here’s where a little history and context becomes so important.
Catholicism is an actual, historical religion. Not something “made-up”.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

John 7:24 “Judge not according to the appearance,but judge righteous judgement”

Exactly.
Don’t judge the Eucharist based on appearances, but on the word of Jesus who stated “This IS My Body.”

 

[KathleenGee]

You have to go back to how early Christians worshipped and how they believed.

You have to go back to ancient documents.

The worship was in response to Christ saying ‘Do this in memory of Me’…you the have to understand the Jewish practice of the Memorial.

Every the Jews were instructed to remember their exile and being led out of Egypt by the Lord, and how they escaped the Angel of death at the Passover meal.

The Passover is the Jewish memorial.

The Mass is the Christian memorial of Christ’s death on the cross, His resurrection, and His divine ministry to us from the altar in heaven to ours here on earth.

There was the daily sacrifice of the sprinkling of blood of animals. Now there is the unbloody sacrifice of Our Lord for all the sins in the world today to be offered in atonement.

The Mass makes present the one bloody sacrifice, but His shedding of blood is done. What happens is that you are in God’s time at Mass, where the one act of Christ’s death of the Cross, His body and blood and now risen, is shared to us in the same mystical event.

Christ died only once and resurrected only once. But when you go to Mass, you make present to the world, your sacred work, the reality of Christ in all the fullness of the shedding of His Blood made present to the world today. Catholics extend His sacrificial presence today to the world, the same Crucified and Resurrected Lord with nothing loss in 2000 years.

When people begin to grasp how we worship, how we enter into sacred space where the Lord in His physical presence remains there waiting for us…you begin to understand our liturgical worship. Mass begins and we are no longer of the world but present before the Lord and attending to His memorial, in response to His command for the apostles to Do This in Memory of Me…

The work of the Church is to reconcile sinners to God and to make present to each generation Christ’s bloody sacrifice and resurrection…there is no dictates of man’s linear time. We are cojoined in the eternal being of God at Mass.

When we hear the Liturgy of the Word, we are now as witnesses, like sitting in this arena, and listening to the faith walk of the Jewish people. We can identify with their struggles that we have today. We see their accomplishments and their failures…but they are going forward in the Lord. The liturgy of the Word with full awareness is tremendous. It changes us and draws us into the people of faith who seek union with the Lord, their only salvation. We hear the words of Jesus in the Gospel and Jesus is the same today as He was then…on Resurrection Sunday…in the Church, ordinary Sunday where the presence of the Lord, His great grace and presence is the same today as it was on the 8th day.

When parishes attempt to have people attend liturgy classes, so many times people have other things planned and cannot come.

In ancient times the great heresy was not believing in the real presence of the Lord in the Eucharist, the Breaking of Bread as it was called then. The other error that came about was the Gnostics who had this concept of secret knowledge.

Anyway…the Liturgy is tremendous…it is the greatest power of goodness on the earth.

 

[Dorothy]

Amen! The Mass is Heaven on earth!

 

[Cube2]

Now, you have reduced His Eucharist to our own sentiments and faith. His body is real and substantial. It was made by the Word of God and Jesus extended this Word into our Communion Eucharist.

“In Memory” is a Command to both continue the Sacrament, and to do so, with our hearts raised to His Work of Redemption in the Paschal Sacrifice.

God too “remembered” His covenants with His people. Did that mean He forgot at any moment? Or that He somehow thought about something less at any given time? No, it meant that He actualized His Covenant wholeheartedly at a given moment, just as He does in the Mass So, we too are called to give our hearts to His Covenantal Body and Blood.

Church history records that this teaching was introduced in the RCC in 1215 A.D. That implies it was not a universal doctrine of the church. According to traditions, the disputes to arrive to that conclusion was on the differing interpretations of various bishops. On the link; catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=1192, we see that those who held the view of transubstantiation of the bread & wine won the dispute.
It was then made a dogma and is the central focus of the mass.

Jesus ministry on earth lasted about 3 and a half years, while the last supper took less than one hour. It was the last commission that Jesus had with his 12 disciples before his death. He made them take an oath of allegiance to him, and surely they died painfully bearing the testimony of Jesus. What made them persevere is not the bread & wine, but the sure hope of eternity with Christ.
The book of Hebrews chapter 11, shows the importance of faith without which we cant please God.

 

[Cube2]

Jesus was not telling the woman that Mary was not blessed, but rather why she, and all who keep the Word of God, are truly blessed.

The statement of Jesus to the woman was not an affirmation, but a correction of where she should focus her attention to. If we would try to find out the motive of the woman while saying such words to Jesus, we may find that; she was either seeking attention, or she thought that by praising Jesus mother, she would gain some special favour.
Jesus’ response is important to us today as it helps us understand his will.

Luke 1:41-45
41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the child leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit 42 and exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. 43 And why has this happened to me, that the mother of my Lord comes to me? 44 For as soon as I heard the sound of your greeting, the child in my womb leaped for joy. 45 And blessed is she who believed that there would be[e] a fulfillment of what was spoken to her by the Lord.”

A child moves within the womb depending on moods. These were 2 pregnant women and they would have said many things to one another in regards to what was in the waiting.
But we are told that Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and exclaimed. The words she uttered were prophetic and they support our faith that Jesus was the Messiah. Mary might have been surprised by Elizabeth’s exclamation, though she knew it was the truth.

Prophet Isaiah had prophesied hundred of years before.
In Isa:7:14: Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Everything happening around Mary is a fulfillment of God’s plan to redeem mankind.
Yes Mary is blessed, but more blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it, as it is the qualification for eternal life.

 

[Dorothy]

The statement of Jesus to the woman was not an affirmation, but a correction of where she should focus her attention to. If we would try to find out the motive of the woman while saying such words to Jesus, we may find that; she was either seeking attention, or she thought that by praising Jesus mother, she would gain some special favour.
Jesus’ response is important to us today as it helps us understand his will.

A child moves within the womb depending on moods. These were 2 pregnant women and they would have said many things to one another in regards to what was in the waiting.
But we are told that Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and exclaimed. The words she uttered were prophetic and they support our faith that Jesus was the Messiah. Mary might have been surprised by Elizabeth’s exclamation, though she knew it was the truth.

Prophet Isaiah had prophesied hundred of years before.
In Isa:7:14: Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Everything happening around Mary is a fulfillment of God’s plan to redeem mankind.
Yes Mary is blessed, but more blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it, as it is the qualification for eternal life.

Mary heard the Word of God, and kept it! She grew in faith and trust throughout her life, in all the situations that were presented to her.

Mary “stood” at the Cross, in agreement totally with her Son’s mission. A sword pierced her heart watching His Passion.

“And thine own soul a sword shall pierce.” Mary is blessed indeed!

 

[adf417]

Church history records that this teaching was introduced in the RCC in 1215 A.D.

:nope: Nope! The records of this teaching go back much farther that that. Right around the “Last Supper” give or take a few meals. You can even see the it in scripture multiple places, unless you want to want to interpret those as symbolic, which I know you do Cube2 but it just aint so bro.

That implies it was not a universal doctrine of the church.

Only if you redefine “church” different than Jesus did.

According to traditions, the disputes to arrive to that conclusion was on the differing interpretations of various bishops. On the link; catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=1192, we see that those who held the view of transubstantiation of the bread & wine won the dispute.
It was then made a dogma and is the central focus of the mass.

yup, jus-li-da-Trinity at the council of Nicaea in 325, which you agree with. Curious you continue bring up later dogmas in the church as man made inventions but desperately hold on to that ol Trinity thing. You sure can continue believing these are man made inventions but is just doesn’t make it truth. Even with cool links and stuff.

Jesus ministry on earth lasted about 3 and a half years, while the last supper took less than one hour. It was the last commission that Jesus had with his 12 disciples before his death. He made them take an oath of allegiance to him, and surely they died painfully bearing the testimony of Jesus. What made them persevere is not the bread & wine, but the sure hope of eternity with Christ.
The book of Hebrews chapter 11, shows the importance of faith without which we cant please God.

Like!

 

[KathleenGee]

Cube…you live in Africa?

I was there in 1974 and it was sad to see the anti-Catholic impact by an American founded sect telling the people there that we worshipped statues and had a lot of money. Anyway, they came into the Church, baptized Catholics.

There is this new spin coming out of here that Emperor Constantine started the Roman Catholic Church. Is this what you were referring to?

I have been pondering on your concerns…it is obvious that you are seeking the truth and in this, you are in the Holy Spirit. Pray the Holy Spirit will help clarify to you His way and His will and to help you discern true from false witness.

There was no worship based on Scripture and texts up until the Protestant Reformation. Our worship is based in the living presence of the Lord. We worship in spirit and truth and the focus is Christ.

You are going at it alone so to speak using American made biases alleging what Catholicism is about, but you never experienced Christ while in the Church when you were younger…So you are looking at many things that come to you…you are looking at alot of things.

Pray.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Are there any former Catholics here that can say you did worship Mary when you were Catholic? If not what do you say to those who believe you did?

Peace!!!

Not sure what you mean by a former Catholic, but when I formerly practiced, no I did not worship Mary. I would tell them Catholics honor her and ask for her prayers. But that people often ask others on earth and those they may believe to be in heaven, for their prayers. I still say that when it’s been brought up. Peace to you as well.

 

[adf417]

Not sure what you mean by a former Catholic, but when I formerly practiced, no I did not worship Mary. I would tell them Catholics honor her and ask for her prayers. But that people often ask others on earth and those they may believe to be in heaven, for their prayers. I still say that when it’s been brought up. Peace to you as well.

Welcom to CAF Sy Noe. With wisdom like this I pray you stick around for a long time. Thanks for the blessing and more of the same back to you.

 

[schaeffer]

I know now that Catholic Church has different words for veneration and worship.

latria, hyperdulia, dulia.

If a person doesn’t know this, or understand the difference, or even realize there is or can be a difference what is the result.

I think that these ideas are perhaps too subtle for some people to truly understand or grasp. Are they culpable for this?

I expect that the not knowing or understanding of these things is what leads many to believe Catholics worship the saints, as the outer appearance is often the same and no one can read hearts and souls.

I think likewise Catholics don’t fully understand some practices in other religions, when such practices have various outward appearances.

I think when it comes to faith and religion, they are a culture in themselves, and one not immersed or experienced in the culture does not truly understand the experience and subtlties.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Welcom to CAF Sy Noe. With wisdom like this I pray you stick around for a long time. Thanks for the blessing and more of the same back to you.

Thanks.

 

[Sy_Noe]

I know now that Catholic Church has different words for veneration and worship.

latria, hyperdulia, dulia.

If a person doesn’t know this, or understand the difference, or even realize there is or can be a difference what is the result.

I think that these ideas are perhaps too subtle for some people to truly understand or grasp. Are they culpable for this?

I expect that the not knowing or understanding of these things is what leads many to believe Catholics worship the saints, as the outer appearance is often the same and no one can read hearts and souls.

I think likewise Catholics don’t fully understand some practices in other religions, when such practices have various outward appearances.

I think when it comes to faith and religion, they are a culture in themselves, and one not immersed or experienced in the culture does not truly understand the experience and subtlties.

Good point.

 

[adf417]

I know now that Catholic Church has different words for veneration and worship.

latria, hyperdulia, dulia.

Very astute in your observance. Thank you for pointing out this truth.

If a person doesn’t know this, or understand the difference, or even realize there is or can be a difference what is the result.

I think that these ideas are perhaps too subtle for some people to truly understand or grasp. Are they culpable for this?

Yes and no…The CCC says:

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest. (1735, 1767)

I expect that the not knowing or understanding of these things is what leads many to believe Catholics worship the saints, as the outer appearance is often the same and no one can read hearts and souls.

I suspect it is more than simply knowing. I have myself tried to explain this and have see others here on CAF try to explain it and many times the end result is the same - “no, it still is idle worship”. You have been blessed in your understanding. :angel1:

I think likewise Catholics don’t fully understand some practices in other religions, when such practices have various outward appearances.

I think when it comes to faith and religion, they are a culture in themselves, and one not immersed or experienced in the culture does not truly understand the experience and subtlties.

 

[schaeffer]

You have been blessed in your understanding. :angel1:

I think of it like this. A Catholic knows what their faith is and their practices mean. If I ask them and they explain, I have no reason to think they would lie or misrepresent their own faith, or that I could know better than they do the meanings and importance of their carrying out their faith.

When I studied chemistry, I did not ask the teacher to explain something and then argue with her, telling her she didn’t know what she was talking about.

So, I may not REALLY understand the fine points myself, but I do understand that I am not the expert, and that listening can lead to learning and a better understanding.

 

[rcwitness]

Church history records that this teaching was introduced in the RCC in 1215 A.D. That implies it was not a universal doctrine of the church. According to traditions, the disputes to arrive to that conclusion was on the differing interpretations of various bishops. On the link; catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=1192, we see that those who held the view of transubstantiation of the bread & wine won the dispute.
It was then made a dogma and is the central focus of the mass.

Of course it won the dispute, just like the dispute in Acts 15.

When there is dispute about a matter of faith, it does not mean that the Truth of the matter does not exist. It means people are not in agreement with the Truth. So the Church comes together under the leadership of those appointed to the offices of Bishop. Them the matter is judged and decided. The Truth of the Eucharist was from the beginning, but the Church needed to settle the divisions about His presence. Just like the Word of God was always the Word of God, but the Church Confirmed which books contained the Word of God to the degree of Sacred Scripture. This was centuries after Jesus.

So, no, the Church did not begin believing in the Transubstantiation when the doctrine was formalized. It defined what the Church had always believed.

The statement of Jesus to the woman was not an affirmation, but a correction of where she should focus her attention to. If we would try to find out the motive of the woman while saying such words to Jesus, we may find that; she was either seeking attention, or she thought that by praising Jesus mother, she would gain some special favour.
Jesus’ response is important to us today as it helps us understand his will.

In Isa:7:14: Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Everything happening around Mary is a fulfillment of God’s plan to redeem mankind.
Yes Mary is blessed, but more blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it, as it is the qualification for eternal life.

Jesus did NOT say, “more blessed are those who hear the Word of God and keep it.”

He was acknowledging the blessing which makes Mary blessed is the fact that she believed in the Word which blessed her. Jesus says all those who do the same, are blessed just like her. She is a mother to all those who believe. If you want to believe you have more faith than her or anyone else, you are free to do so. The Church Teaches her faith was pure. I believe the Church.

 

[Cube2]

Mary heard the Word of God, and kept it! She grew in faith and trust throughout her life, in all the situations that were presented to her.

Mary “stood” at the Cross, in agreement totally with her Son’s mission. A sword pierced her heart watching His Passion.

“And thine own soul a sword shall pierce.” Mary is blessed indeed!

Yes she is, but not fit for veneration!

 

[rcwitness]

Yes she is, but not fit for veneration!

Cube2,

Please becarefull with your words. This statement crosses a line of respect and Christian behavior.

Many here at CAF probably know that I have strong reservation regarding certain devotions to Mary, for example consecration to her. I have doubts about the “spirit” at Fatima. However, I have no grounds to question our devotion to Mary’s heart as the Church Universal does. And I cannot judge the hearts of those who have a certain love for her. I keep my devotion to the Spirit of the Giver and I recognize we were given a “mother” in Him. What we can do is question private revalations and recognize when individuals devotions venture into unhealthy grounds by the results of their faith. But this takes personal relationship with them and examining ourselves in love of Jesus.

But this comment shows a lack of respect for Mary, and all her children in Christ. I do believe the issue for you lies in the terms you are not willing to accept. But there is no justification to say Mary is not fit for veneration. Many, many saints are fit for the Lord’s kingdom. Their deeds will follow them, and whom the Lord honors is worthy of our honor as well.

 

[Cube2]

:nope: Nope! The records of this teaching go back much farther than that. Right around the “Last Supper” give or take a few meals. You can even see that it in scripture multiple places, unless you want to want to interpret those as symbolic, which I know you do Cube2 but it just aint so bro.

Did Jesus eat the bread and drink the wine during the last supper?
Did his mother Mary take the bread as the real body of her son?

Only if you redefine “church” different than Jesus did.

One of the statements that’s used by RCC when defining the church is where Jesus told Peter that He’ll build his church on the rock, and Peter was called the Rock.

Matt16:13-14: When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
Matt16:15: He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Matt16:16: And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Matt16:17-19: And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Exegesis:
Jesus had asked his disciple about what other people said he was: they gave heard many variants of what others said.
Then Jesus asked them what they said he was. It seems only Peter knew who Jesus was as the others are not recorded to have said anything.
Then Jesus prophetically uttered words that were new to them. He also renamed Simon Bar-Jona to Peter. He then said that He himself would build His church upon that {this} rock.
The big question is what was the rock that Jesus refereed to? When we agree on what the symbol rock refereed to, then we may understand what church Jesus was talking about.
This will also unveil what the ‘church’ of Christ means as per the teaching of RCC.

yup, jus-li-da-Trinity at the council of Nicaea in 325, which you agree with. Curious you continue bring up later dogmas in the church as man made inventions but desperately hold on to that ol Trinity thing. You sure can continue believing these are man made inventions but is just doesn’t make it truth. Even with cool links and stuff.

After the conversion of the Emperor Constantine, and the subsequent legalization of Christianity in the Roman Empire, the church assumed some organizational structure. The Trinity was a dogma, but its clearly outlined in the bible and that is why it does not raise alot of controversy. The dogmas from the Traditions do not have a strong basis from the bible. By the way, even Muslims and other religions get references from the bible to support their claims. There was even a preacher from the US who was preaching that the world would end in Dec 2012 and was calculating the dates from the Bible.

Like now in 2014, what doctrine is so controversial in RCC that would necessitate the Magisterium to declare a dogma?