Former Catholics - Mary worship

[Cube2]

Cube…you live in Africa?

I was there in 1974 and it was sad to see the anti-Catholic impact by an American founded sect telling the people there that we worshipped statues and had a lot of money. Anyway, they came into the Church, baptized Catholics.

There is this new spin coming out of here that Emperor Constantine started the Roman Catholic Church. Is this what you were referring to?

I have been pondering on your concerns…it is obvious that you are seeking the truth and in this, you are in the Holy Spirit. Pray the Holy Spirit will help clarify to you His way and His will and to help you discern true from false witness.

There was no worship based on Scripture and texts up until the Protestant Reformation. Our worship is based in the living presence of the Lord. We worship in spirit and truth and the focus is Christ.

You are going at it alone so to speak using American made biases alleging what Catholicism is about, but you never experienced Christ while in the Church when you were younger…So you are looking at many things that come to you…you are looking at alot of things.

Pray.

The Christian truth is stated in the Bible. When one reads the bible, he/she gets on the journey to know the will of God which is revealed in Christ.

About Constantine, during his reign Christianity was legalized and later made the state religion of the Roman Empire. Greeks, Romans, Egyptians etc had their religions & deities which were denounced in place of Christianity. In such a vast empire, to galvanize the people under one faith was not a simple task considering that writing was done manually. How everybody became a true christian is still a mystery.

Protestantism is not going against God, its denouncing a system that has some teachings that are contradictory. Eg. the dogma of transubstantiation was effected in 1215AD, implying that the Catholics before then never believed of Christ’s presence in the host. More and more dogmas were added having been borrowed from the Traditions. This is the basis of Protestant reformation.
The reformers argues that, since we are Christians, we stick as closely as possible to the teaching of Christ & apostles, lest we fall in the trap of the devil.
Religious men can err, and the margin of error increases as distance from the source increases. That is why we stick to solar scriptura to maintain the purity of the Gospel, instead of following Sacred Traditions which came later after apostles had passed on.

The biases are not from an American. The Word of God is open to any person in the world whether American, Chinese, African etc. By the way, Jesus warned that, “not everybody who calls me Lord Lord will enter in the kingdom of God” Thus I would be guided by His Word all the more than by the Traditions.

 

[adf417]

Did Jesus eat the bread and drink the wine during the last supper?

Sure did, although he drinks wine like me, very slowly. He didn’t finish the “meal” or “fourth cup” till right before his last breath…

28After this, aware that everything was now finished, in order that the scripture might be fulfilled,* Jesus said, “I thirst.”p 29There was a vessel filled with common wine. So they put a sponge soaked in wine on a sprig of hyssop and put it up to his mouth. 30 When Jesus had taken the wine, he said, “It is finished.” And bowing his head, he handed over the spirit.

Did his mother Mary take the bread as the real body of her son?

One of the statements that’s used by RCC when defining the church is where Jesus told Peter that He’ll build his church on the rock, and Peter was called the Rock.

Correct, only one! and this “one” was only able to be used many years after the church was established as you know the gospel of Mathew was written many years later, right?

Matt16:13-14: When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
Matt16:15: He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Matt16:16: And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Matt16:17-19: And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Exegesis:
Jesus had asked his disciple about what other people said he was: they gave heard many variants of what others said.
Then Jesus asked them what they said he was. It seems only Peter knew who Jesus was as the others are not recorded to have said anything.
Then Jesus prophetically uttered words that were new to them. He also renamed Simon Bar-Jona to Peter. He then said that He himself would build His church upon that {this} rock.
The big question is what was the rock that Jesus refereed to? When we agree on what the symbol rock refereed to, then we may understand what church Jesus was talking about.
This will also unveil what the ‘church’ of Christ means as per the teaching of RCC.

Interesting! But you are forgetting important factors in using the above as your ultimate authority.

1. As stated above, these writing did not exist for a period of time while “the church” did.
2. If you are going to rely on the teaching of the Apostles as to what the bible really means then you will have to show how your exegesis above matched the exegesis of the early fathers. Otherwise if it does not, which it doesn’t, then you will have a problem convincing others that the canon you read from is not equally flawed as it too was complied by these same people.

After the conversion of the Emperor Constantine, and the subsequent legalization of Christianity in the Roman Empire, the church assumed some organizational structure. The Trinity was a dogma, but its clearly outlined in the bible and that is why it does not raise alot of controversy. The dogmas from the Traditions do not have a strong basis from the bible. By the way, even Muslims and other religions get references from the bible to support their claims. There was even a preacher from the US who was preaching that the world would end in Dec 2012 and was calculating the dates from the Bible.

You do realize a large portion of the church was Arian in the 2nd century, right? You and I both see the “Trinity” in the bible and can say “it is clearly outlined in the bible”. But in fact it took early councils to define this. Even today there are groups, who call themselves “Christians”, who use the same bible as you do and profess there is no Trinity. So, thank the Catholic Church, and of course God, for the early church councils.

Like now in 2014, what doctrine is so controversial in RCC that would necessitate the Magisterium to declare a dogma?

I can’t think of any, but then again, I do not have a problem with understanding any of the teachings, however if the magisterium felt like there needed to be more clarification on any given teaching and the Holy Spirit moved them, I’m sure they would do so.

Peace!!!

 

[KathleenGee]

We venerate Mary, because she said yes to give Our Lord her body and blood, to care for our Lord and no other woman did.

Saying Cube, that we are not to venerate Mary is like one not venerating one’s country, one’s flag and anthem…I can’t think of other examples where we venerate…our parents…and elders…I hope…

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

I see what you’re saying but I have a question for you. If your best friend called and said there was a gunman in his office building and wanted you to pray, what would you say? Would you tell him to take it to Jesus or would you pray for him?

The Apostle Paul asked others to pray for him and prayed for others. Were they making a mistake? Was Paul wrong to pray for others and ask for the prayer of others? Should he have been telling them that they should only pray for themselves and that the “blood” of the sacrifice was good enough and gave them access to the high priest?

Hi Brandall,thanks for your response.
We do not disagree on the fact that the disciples and apostles ,sought prayer from,and prayed one for another.
But all were very much living at the time ,and visibly and audibly accessible to each other, so I do not think this equates to Mary being Mediatrix in heaven,as Catholic teachings hold.

But even viewed from this time On earth ,imagine for a minute Mary the mother of Jesus(,after Jesus had ascended ), in regards a particular matter,sought the prayers of that disciple whom Jesus loved,in whose house she then dwelt:
why would she need to bother :if she had superior access ? That is, if for her ,Jesus had a more sympathetic ear.
Or how could the same beloved John ask of Mary ( his mother) for her intercession considering his own belief and teaching later on in 1John 2:8 ?

“If we say that we have no sin,we deceive ourselves,and the truth is not in us”

You said Brandall that you understood my point , how then would you answer the dilemma involved with a duality of sinless mediators ?

 

[Dorothy]

At times this thread just seems to be walking round and round.

There are different understandings and suppositions are made to try and break down another’s understanding.

I pray that others have the insight to respond to questioners…if not, it seems we should agree to disagree and continue to love one another in the Body of Christ.

 

[camillebru]

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[57Bill]

Are there any former Catholics here that can say you did worship Mary when you were Catholic? If not what do you say to those who believe you did?

Peace!!!

I really don’t know, I’d say an ‘ignorant’ no I didn’t. I did enjoy the month of May. School almost out and going to Mass every Friday to sing!!!

“Mary” is a tough sell to most life-long Protestants. I get into discussions in my bible group and the "solo’ argument of BVM bearing children, IE Jesus’s brothers is always the one focused on first.

Rather than tossing them a pair of rosary beads and say this helps me, it therefore will help you. I get more biblical in regards to what the Marian doctrines refer to…not Mary per se but the (only) way (IMO) that God could enter into the world as incarnate. Her Immaculate Conception, Her Perpetual Virginity, Mother of God and Assumption. IOW Mary, as God created her would never be “soiled or rot”, if that makes any sense. I know that they probably have never had Mary explained that way, but it does get them thinking.

Yet I still don’t grasp the role of Mary as Mediatrix, and that she had/has a role in our redemption, beyond her complete obedience to God. Is it because of a belief that Mary could have said “no” to Angel Gabriel and her “yes” (fiat) was her decision to be in an active role of her salvation and ours?

I don’t have the time to be on-line in a thread discussion so if any or many want to PM me, I’d be grateful and thankful.

 

[Dorothy]

I really don’t know, I’d say an ‘ignorant’ no I didn’t. I did enjoy the month of May. School almost out and going to Mass every Friday to sing!!!

“Mary” is a tough sell to most life-long Protestants. I get into discussions in my bible group and the "solo’ argument of BVM bearing children, IE Jesus’s brothers is always the one focused on first.

Rather than tossing them a pair of rosary beads and say this helps me, it therefore will help you. I get more biblical in regards to what the Marian doctrines refer to…not Mary per se but the (only) way (IMO) that God could enter into the world as incarnate. Her Immaculate Conception, Her Perpetual Virginity, Mother of God and Assumption. IOW Mary, as God created her would never be “soiled or rot”, if that makes any sense. I know that they probably have never had Mary explained that way, but it does get them thinking.

Yet I still don’t grasp the role of Mary as Mediatrix, and that she had/has a role in our redemption, beyond her complete obedience to God. Is it because of a belief that Mary could have said “no” to Angel Gabriel and her “yes” (fiat) was her decision to be in an active role of her salvation and ours?

I don’t have the time to be on-line in a thread discussion so if any or many want to PM me, I’d be grateful and thankful.

Bill,

What you shared about how to explain Mary to non-Catholics gave me new insights as how to do so!

Thank you!

I hope others who are articulate enough to explain Mary’s role as Mediatrix will PM you and explain, as you requested to not be in a thread.

 

[KathleenGee]

Hi Dorothy…

Yes I think this thread is going round and round…I believe that a person cannot truly experience Mary unless it is God’s will that they understand her outside the communion of the Church.

So I am no longer participating on this thread but pray for everyone who is seeking the truth.

 

[Dorothy]

Hi Dorothy…

Yes I think this thread is going round and round…I believe that a person cannot truly experience Mary unless it is God’s will that they understand her outside the communion of the Church.

So I am no longer participating on this thread but pray for everyone who is seeking the truth.

Kathleen,

I agree with what you wrote, and will pray that the Holy Spirit will enlighten all who are seeking truth.

And those who aren’t seeking truth also! (Like St. Paul!)

 

[KathleenGee]

Hi Dorothy,

I think people who have this concern should consider the source who is promoting the falsehood that Catholics worship Mary and on the other hand, do not tell them the truth of how Catholics worship. I believe those deliberately doing this are at war with the Lord’s Church, even though they profess to be Christians.

I recall reading about the false teachers in Revelations…and wonder where false and deliberate false misrepresentation of Catholics fits in with false teachers claiming to be Christians.

Falsehoods against Christ and His Church with it carry a type of negative spiritual power that can put some people in bondage. People have to pray to be delivered from falsehoods by such teachers and pray the Holy Spirit fill the lies and lead them to the Truth of Jesus Christ.

So I pray they break away from all such concepts and place themselves in the Holy Spirit and let Him lead them.

 

[Dorothy]

Hi Dorothy,

I think people who have this concern should consider the source who is promoting the falsehood that Catholics worship Mary and on the other hand, do not tell them the truth of how Catholics worship. I believe those deliberately doing this are at war with the Lord’s Church, even though they profess to be Christians.

I recall reading about the false teachers in Revelations…and wonder where false and deliberate false misrepresentation of Catholics fits in with false teachers claiming to be Christians.

Falsehoods against Christ and His Church with it carry a type of negative spiritual power that can put some people in bondage. People have to pray to be delivered from falsehoods by such teachers and pray the Holy Spirit fill the lies and lead them to the Truth of Jesus Christ.

So I pray they break away from all such concepts and place themselves in the Holy Spirit and let Him lead them.

Kathleen wrote: “Falsehoods against Christ and His Church with it carry a type of negative spiritual power that can put some people in bondage. People have to pray to be delivered from falsehoods by such teachers and pray the Holy Spirit fill the lies and lead them to the Truth of Jesus Christ.”

Very well said. And we can pray for them to be unbound even if they don’t believe they need such prayer.

Our Lord prayed for unity, and we need it so badly.

God bless you Kathleen! And now I will officially leave this thread.

 

[KathleenGee]

God bless you as well, Dorothy.

I cannot help but think of the false teachers who are described as locusts in Revelations, vainglory, who deliberately mislead people under the guise of truth, who have the power to poison men’s souls.

I know of an ordained priest who grew up in an anti-Catholic background and he would have to drop out every so often because of fears. But he persevered, became at peace, and then ordained.

Yes, I am finished here as well. Those who are going in circles…remember, the evil one leads us concentrically…we go in circles…so it is better to take time to really pray and ask the Lord to unload that which is not of the Lord. When people can perceive Christ at work in the Church, and recognize His focus at Mass, they are quick to realize we do not worship Mary. People have to pray.

 

[adf417]

As this thread comes to a close, I would like to leave those who still wrongly think Catholics worship Mary with this thought.

There have been many Catholics here express their passion of how they do not worship Mary. The official church documents explicitly points out that Catholics do not worship Mary. The official church documents and our regular profession of faith explicitly points out in the creeds what it is Catholics do worship, “ in one God, the Father Almighty…”, and that this “one God” made Mary among all other things. So shouldn’t this prove either Catholics do not worship Mary or prove our loyalty and worship to the one we are accused of worshiping, Mary, is the absolute poorest, weakest, lamest form of loyalty/worship ever displayed to a god where we share publicly professed worship of another god? Can you actually worship, in the truest sense, multiple gods?

This reminds me of Mat 6:24. “No one can serve two masters. He will either hate one and love the other, or be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.” I know this is usually comparing God to money but I believe there is a parallel to other would be gods.

Lastly I would like to point you to Baruch chapter 6 (yes this is part of Holy scripture) where it is written over and over and over – “know, therefore, they are not gods, do not fear them.”

May the peace and love of our Lord Jesus Christ be with everyone who has participated in this thread!!!