Former Catholics, Please Post Your Story Here

[Binky_Brown]

jjanderson:

Then what does Jesus say in Matt 18:17? Please give the translation of the Bible you’re using to answer. Thanks!

Peace in Christ +

15If your brother wrongs you, go and show him his fault, between you and him privately. If he listens to you, you have won back your brother.
16But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two others, so that every word may be confirmed and upheld by the testimony of two or three witnesses.
17If he pays no attention to them [refusing to listen and obey], tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a pagan and a tax collector.(1)

**Text is from the Amplified Bible, JJ. And it states, " tell it to the church", not “take it to the church”, as Little Mary claimed. More importantly, the context here is one of resolving a situation where a brother has wronged another, not resolution of a doctrinal dispute. **

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Finally JJ, note at the beginning of Chapter 18, that Jesus is addressing His disciples, not merely His apostles. The power to “bind and loose” is therefore not an exclusively apostolic one, to be handed down to a select few, but one given to all believers.

 

[Little_Mary]

And this genre of sophmoric patronization is supposed to persuade me and other Former Catholics to reconsider the RCC because…?

I, for one, am not here to persuade you to do anything. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. If you are here to clarify questions you have, great. If you are here only to criticize, then please stop.

This particular response only confirms what I said earlier, you are angry and you need prayer.

 

[Little_Mary]

Text is from the Amplified Bible, JJ. And it states, " tell it to the church", not “take it to the church”, as Little Mary claimed. More importantly, the context here is one of resolving a situation where a brother has wronged another, not resolution of a doctrinal dispute.

.

My, my, tell it to the church or take (the issue) to the church (by telling). A classic example of splitting hairs. One can go too far to salvage a point.

And the point was…? Ah yes, in a previous post, spokenword stated that he “didn’t need a physical church…” That is what prompted me to reference Matt 18:17…to show that Christ himself acknowledges a physical church. I took nothing out of context. Nor am I trying to persuade spokenword to believe what I believe.

This particular subject has gone way off subject from the OP’s first post and has taken a nasty turn. I consider it closed. Unless of course I have to come back and defend myself from anymore personal shots from you, Binky.

 

[Little_Mary]

He never said “Take it to the Church”. You did. Your words, not His. Pity you can’t tell the difference.

Once again, you’re not only splitting hairs, but being downright nasty. This post seethes with anger. :nope:

 

[Little_Mary]

Binky Brown:

…**an association with an institution whose claims no longer held credibility, whose doctines flew in the face of biblical admonitions to the contrary, and whose members’ lives came nowhere near to the standards of godliness I saw in the lives of others who supposedly were not “in the fullness of the faith”. **

You need to back up what claims no longer hold credibility, if you can.

Contradict the bible? Again, back it up.

You don’t want to hear that you were not properly catechized? Better sign off then.

And please don’t generalize an entire group of peole because of the less than godly lives of a few. That is a false accusation on your part. You left the One True Church based on a fasle accusation on your part.

 

[jjanderson]

Binky Brown:

Finally JJ, note at the beginning of Chapter 18, that Jesus is addressing His disciples, not merely His apostles. The power to “bind and loose” is therefore not an exclusively apostolic one, to be handed down to a select few, but one given to all believers.

Binky, the word “Disciples” is used to refer to the 12 apostles throughout the book of Mattew. See Matt 10:1 “Then he summoned his twelve disciples” among many other examples. Also, see Matt 16:17-20 where He intstitutes the Sacrament with PETER ALONE. He then later reiterates with the rest of the Apostles the steps to be taken, and yes, then hands down the power to bind and loose the THE APOSTLES.

Also, Little Mary clarified that she was paraphrasing when she said “take” instead of “tell.” I knew what she meant.
Peace in Christ +

 

[jjanderson]

dredgtone:

It’s funny because everybody says belief is a choice. Not for me. It was a realization, but that’s neither here nor there. That’s why I am a former Catholic. It was just a realization that I could no longer have faith because that’s just not the type of person I am. It’s not how my mind works.

Oh, Dredgetone, I like you a lot. I believe you to be sincere. To “realize” something there must be some sort of intitial catalyst. Perhaps it was your boredom with altar serving? To believe is not just a choice. The initial catalyst is grace. As St. Thomas of Aquinas said it, “Believing is an act of the intellect assenting to the divine truth by command of the will moved by God through grace.”

Peace in Christ +

 

[Binky_Brown]

. Also, see Matt 16:17-20 where He intstitutes the Sacrament with PETER ALONE. He then later reiterates with the rest of the Apostles the steps to be taken, and yes, then hands down the power to bind and loose the THE APOSTLES.

Again, in the Amplified Bible:

13Now when Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, Who do people say that the Son of Man is?
14And they answered, Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.
15He said to them, But who do you [yourselves] say that I am?
16Simon Peter replied, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17Then Jesus answered him, Blessed (happy, fortunate, and 4] to be envied) are you, Simon Bar-Jonah. For flesh and blood [men] have not revealed this to you, but My Father Who is in heaven.
18And I tell you, you are 5] Peter [Greek, Petros–a large piece of rock], and on this rock [Greek, petra–a [MATT 16 AMP - Pharisees Test Jesus - Now the - Bible Gateway”]6] huge rock like Gibraltar] I will build My church, and the gates of Hades (the powers of the 7] infernal region) shall 8] not overpower it [or be strong to its detriment or hold out against it].
19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind (declare to be improper and unlawful) on earth 9] must be what is already bound in heaven; and whatever you loose (declare lawful) on earth 10] must be what is already loosed in heaven.(2)
20Then He sternly and strictly charged and warned the disciples to tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.

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Again, the “audience” at this point is referred to as “His disciples”: no reference to " the 12" is made here. The “rock” upon which His church is built is not “Petros” (Simon Bar-Jonah), but the “Petra”: the declaration that He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.( And yes…I know the old worn out “Cephas” argument…)

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Nowhere does He state to those present that binding and losing are the exclusive domain of the Twelve Apostles.

 

[Binky_Brown]

jjanderson:

Binky, the word “Disciples” is used to refer to the 12 apostles throughout the book of Mattew. See Matt 10:1 “Then he summoned his twelve disciples” among many other examples.

Again, from the Amplified Bible:

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** 1**AND JESUS summoned to Him His twelve disciples and gave them power and authority over unclean spirits, to drive them out, and to cure all kinds of disease and all kinds of weakness and infirmity.
2Now these are the names of the twelve apostles (special messengers): first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
3Philip and Bartholomew [Nathaniel]; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus [Judas, not Iscariot];
4Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.

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**It seems pretty obvious that the use of the word “disciples” in verse one is used only as an intoduction of those afterwards referred to as “apostles”.

**

 

[Anne_Carmel]

Please bring the discussion back around to the original topic.

 

[Gryphon]

briand:

I was baptized a Catholic, my mother was Catholic, my father was told he had to be Catholic to merry her. I truly wanted to be a good Christian, of course this has no meaning at all. I add it to try to point out that I was sincere, though often I have been called a liar. I had to wait to go to my first communion because of an accident that left me in the hospital for over a year, again irrelevant but offered for why I was waiting. When I went to my first communion I could not read, Learning disabilities, another charactor flaw to be sure, but I learned the prayers by having them repeated to me over an over again.

As I was preparing for my first communion I started watching WCG broadcast on TV, the images scared the heck out of me, another Charactor flaw to be sure. At my first communion I did not know what to do, some just said make up something for the priest, I did not wish to. As I understand it as this story is told to me because others were there, me and my mother were chased out of the church by the priest because I said I could no go to confession, of course I was 9 years old and full of charactor flaws by this time. He caused us out and chased me out of my holy communion. Most people tell me Im a liar, I dont know what I would gain by lying but so be it.

Many years later I talked to this preist, another vile charactor flaw, as often pointed out to me by christians, and we reconiled. I have become convinced that there is no way to come home, where ever home is. I know that to is a charactor flaw. This and almost every other single christian experience I have had has lead me to believe in the utter fulitlity of trying. Of course this to is a charactor flaw. I dont wish to offend, I have often asked what to do, what is the gospel and so on. I have great hope for the Christian faith, but being a reprobates soul from the foundations of the Earth, and an eternal enemy of God it is hard to believe that applies to me. Agian a Charactor flaw.

First - a learning disability is not a character flaw! Your learning disability is not a moral flaw, the way a character flaw is; it is not a sin, or an offense against God. It may be a cross you must endure, an obstacle to be overcome, a trouble and a nuisance… but it is not a character flaw!

Second - I’m not going to pretend that I understand your experience… it seems to me like you’ve had your share of trials and suffering. But neither are trials and suffering character flaws. In fact, they can be great aids for developing… character! Begin by offering your trials and sufferings to God… and you will begin to serve Him.

Finally - and most importantly - every human soul is stained with Original Sin. By that standard, we are all “reprobate souls” - and certainly have the capability to be God’s eternal enemies as well. Which is why we require Christ’s redeeming power.

So, cling to your “great hope” for the Faith. Go talk to a priest, and get proper instruction in the Catholic faith. Because Jesus Christ came for the sinners - and the greater the sinner, the more He longs to redeem them from their sin.

So, you may think you’re the “black sheep” beyond redemption. But I’ve got good news for you… you’re the “lost sheep” - and Christ Himself is looking for you, to lead you home to His Church… and to His eternal salvation in heaven.

 

[jjanderson]

QUOTE: It seems pretty obvious that the use of the word “disciples” in verse one is used only as an intoduction of those afterwards referred to as “apostles”.

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Not so. The 11 (minus Judas) are again referred to as “disciples” in Matt 28:16 after Christ’s resurrection. Read, on and you’ll see the Jesus conferring on the Apostles the office of teaching and instituting the Sarament of Baptism.

Starting at John 13-1, through at John 18-14 records the washing of the disciples feet, the last supper and four plus chapter of Jesus teaching his Apostles. Not once are the words “the twelve” or “Apostles” used. Do you disagree that the only people present in the upper room on the night before Jesus crucified were the 12 Apostles (until Judas left)? Scripture has to be taken as a whole.

Peace in Christ +

 

[Gryphon]

"Does 1+1=2?
Can it be proved?
That’s science!

Actually, a Princeton mathematician by the name of Kurt Goedel proved, back in the '30s or '40s, that any mathematical system at least as complex as arithmetic (i.e., “1+1 = 2”) is founded upon at least one unproved axiom.

That axiom can be proved… but the proof will necessarily contain at least one unproved axiom… which can be proved, but the new proof will necessarily contain at least one unproved axiom… etc., etc., etc., ad nauseum…

Goedel’s work proved that the universe is not self-referential, or self-existent. (The English equivalent is the statement: “This statement is false.” Which if it’s true, it’s false, and if it’s false, it’s true… oh, the dangers of self-referential paradigms… they lead to such confusion!)

Goedel’s work also proves that at the bottom of our much-vaunted scientific knowledge, there will always be an Unproved Axiom…

something that stands outside our universe, which is necessary for our existence…

…which must be taken on (wait for it)…

faith!

Even Stephen Hawking, who at the end of “A Brief History of Time” was concluding there was no God, and we didn’t need Him, has come to re-think his position after he’s had time to really chew on Kurt Goedel’s work.

So, now that there’s no difference between science and religion… will you reject both… or accept both?

 

[jjanderson]

Anne Carmel:

Please bring the discussion back around to the original topic.

Thank you, Anne!

 

[IreneJ]

“As I struggled with some things, I emerged with the somewhat spiritual, somewhat logical conviction that God the Father wanted me to be like him. He wanted to deify me. God became man that I might become God, deified.” Charity, TOm

God is perfect and as one of His creations we can never be as great as He is. Unlike God we are sinners. He is all powerful, all merciful, and all loving. We are unworthy to call ourselves His children and we are definately not worthy enough to call ourselves His equals by saying that we can become a “god”. The first commandment is to only worship God the one and only true God, and to not place FALSE gods before Him. If you think humans can become a “god” The first commandment proves you wrong.
Irene

 

[dredgtone]

jjanderson:

Oh, Dredgetone, I like you a lot. I believe you to be sincere. To “realize” something there must be some sort of intitial catalyst. Perhaps it was your boredom with altar serving? To believe is not just a choice. The initial catalyst is grace. As St. Thomas of Aquinas said it, “Believing is an act of the intellect assenting to the divine truth by command of the will moved by God through grace.”

Peace in Christ +

Hmm I’d have to sock myself in the face if i lost faith just because i was bored with altar serving, haha. I think that all belief is based on intuition. Intuition is more or less an emotion that points us in the right direction and is the emotional tantamount of our intellects, desires and world perception. So that being said, your intuition tells you God exists while my intuition tells me that he does not exist. I’ve questioned, justified and explored my intuitive conclusion on many occasions and I am 100% certain that I have done my job at questioning my beliefs.

But what it all comes down to in my opinion, is two different world views adding up to two distinct intuitive conclusions. Which is really why I’m here at these boards, because I’ve been getting alot of hostility from Christian in the real world unfortunately, but i only hold their ignorance against them, not their religion. Just trying to let people know that it all comes down to how you interpret the world and you can’t hold that against anyone.

So to answer your question, it wasn’t boredom. It was a realization that I no longer felt the presence of God anymore and I couldn’t figure out why because it’s not like i had any reason to be pissed off at God. Now i realize it was just my intuition taking over.

 

[IreneJ]

To everyone and anyone. There is a prayer book called The Secret of Happiness The Fifteen Prayers Revealed by OUR LORD TO SAINT BRIDGET in the church of Saint Paul at Rome. Whoever performs these excercices everyday for a year, together with 15 Our Fathers and 15 Hail Marys will have recited as many prayers for avery blow OUR LORD received during His Sorrowful Passion.

There are MAGNIFICENT PROMISES attatched to the performance fo these prayers for those who say them for a year. One promice is that before the persons death Jesus will appear to you with his dearest and benoved Mother Mary.

If you are not sure of what faith to follow and you say these prayers for a year, then when Jesus and Mary appear to you, you can ask what faith you should follow and they will tell you to be Catholic. Most of the people who are devoted followers of Christ who he has appeared to are Catholic. Catholics can show that their faith comes directly from the Church that St. Peter started after Jesus mad him the head of the christian church 2000 years ago.

 

[jjanderson]

Briand, this is for you.

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are teh pure in hear, for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kins of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven. (Matt. 5:3-12

Jesus loves you SO much. By his Passion and Death he restored what was damaged and lost by sin. He died for us while we were still sinners. Pray, seek, ask God to show you the way. Maybe get the Gospels on audio tape and listen. God Bless.

Peace in Christ +

 

[Xavier]

This thread has really deteriated quickly.

 

[jjanderson]

dredgtone:

Hmm I’d have to sock myself in the face if i lost faith just because i was bored with altar serving, haha. I think that all belief is based on intuition.

Yes, I agree to proclaim oneself an atheist just to get out of alter serving is a bit drastic. ha! But I wasn’t insinuating that. I was saying there has to be something behind your “realization,” some motivating force that involves the intellect and will.

The definition of “intuition” is “The act or faculty of knowing without the use of rational processes.” (AH Dictionary) A belief may have it’s conception in intuition (or grace in the case of Christian belief) but ultimately has to involve the intellect and the will in order to sustain itself and become a belief.

Peace in Christ +