Former Catholics, Please Post Your Story Here

[walter]

Two statements were made somewhere in this thread that I would like to respond to:

1. No church is perfect. I beg to disagree - the Church is perfect - the people in it may not be as a matter of fact they are not. That perfect church is the Catholic church - there you will find full salvation - believe it or not.
2. Religion is mans attempt to find God. True statement. Christianity is not a religion in that sense. Christianity is God revealing Himself to man. Man would not be able to understand God at all if that were not so.

To our mormon friend: I will be praying for you. Even our protestant friends don’t agree with you theology.

 

[dredgtone]

jjanderson:

Yes, I agree to proclaim oneself an atheist just to get out of alter serving is a bit drastic. ha! But I wasn’t insinuating that. I was saying there has to be something behind your “realization,” some motivating force that involves the intellect and will.

The definition of “intuition” is “The act or faculty of knowing without the use of rational processes.” (AH Dictionary) A belief may have it’s conception in intuition (or grace in the case of Christian belief) but ultimately has to involve the intellect and the will in order to sustain itself and become a belief.

Peace in Christ +

Yes i justified the nonexistance of God with my intellect. But initially i say it was based on intuition because my justification was merely after the fact. It was as if my intuition told me what i later intellectually justified. Which is almost exactly what you said above. But yes, it was ultimately an intellectual conclusion that God did not exist.

 

[jaralenio]

dredgtone:

It’s funny because everybody says belief is a choice. Not for me. It was a realization, but that’s neither here nor there. That’s why I am a former Catholic. It was just a realization that I could no longer have faith because that’s just not the type of person I am. It’s not how my mind works.

Why do you continue to post on a catholic forum? Are you searching for truth without knowing that you are? Read “Everyone needs Truth” in Karl Keatings July 6th E-letter. God Bless you.

 

[SpiritualSon]

I was not always a New Church member.Before that I was Catholic.I started go back to the church in Oct.1965.

I went to confession,change my life like Francis Assisi, and started go to mass as offen as I can.

Every day I was at mass.I gave no time for the devil to get to me. I was working at a hotel on 34th St.in NYC.There was a Franciscan Church on 33th St.There were always confessions and masses there.

How I became a New Church member:
While I was a Catholic in the year 1966 I went to a Catholic Church in NYC, and received Holy Communion.All Catholics pray after to God after receiving Holy Communion.

I always had a habit of praying to the Lord.I asked the Lord to help me to understand.

Believe it or not, but my prayers were answered through the writings of Swedenborg.

My understanding started getting better. Hellen Killer,who was blind and was also a member of this church.

Harry

 

[dredgtone]

jaralenio:

Why do you continue to post on a catholic forum? Are you searching for truth without knowing that you are? Read “Everyone needs Truth” in Karl Keatings July 6th E-letter. God Bless you.

cuz i like picking the brain of other people. Don’t assume I’m instable in my beliefs and searching for truth, that’s far from it =)

I already explained more or less up above, let me repaste it.

“But what it all comes down to in my opinion, is two different world views adding up to two distinct intuitive conclusions. Which is really why I’m here at these boards, because I’ve been getting alot of hostility from Christian in the real world unfortunately, but i only hold their ignorance against them, not their religion. Just trying to let people know that it all comes down to how you interpret the world and you can’t hold that against anyone.”

 

[jjanderson]

dredgtone:

I’ve been getting alot of hostility from Christian in the real world unfortunately.

Just trying to let people know that it all comes down to how you interpret the world and you can’t hold that against anyone."

I’m sorry you’ve been treated with hostility. That isn’t good Christian behavior. Mother theresa loved and cared for ALL people, even atheists. People like her help to support my belief in God.

I believe you when you say your intuition and intellect don’t allow you to believe, but let me ask you this. Just because your intuition and intellect don’t allow you to believe, does that mean there is no God?

 

[Ontario]

SPOKENWORD:

Your right ,I cant think of a more intimate realationship than having Jesus Christ living in me. I am a temple of the living God and Christ lives in me.You think you have to belong to a physical church to attain Christ,but the truth is I am part of the body of Christ and no one can take it away.

In a certain sense you are right. The thief on the cross probably had no knowledge that Christ left his apostles to shepard his flock, and by the grace of God he was saved.

The Catholic Church also agrees that people can be saved without formal membership (see the catechism of the Catholic Church).

But, there is always a but…

Beginning in Acts, throughout the New Testament the apostles are debating matters of controversy. They are also writing letters to various Churches often encouraging them, often admonishing them. There is a clear organizational structure with the apostles (men) at the top of the visible earthly structure. There is no doubt that they are guided by the Holy Spirit. God reveals his will to them and they in turn direct the rest of the Church. God has always used particular men to guide his flock. Moses is an example. Judas, was succeded in Acts 1: 24-26 by Matthias. The bishops in the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches are direct sucessors chosen by their predecessors ever since the first sucession event in Acts 1 24:26.

So, say we were living in the time of Christ. Peter has just denied our Lord three times. If I was a disciple of Christ originally brought to Christ by Saint Peter, would I give up on the other Apostles or Saint Peter himself and start my own denomination? Or say I see Judas betray Jesus outright and then kill himself. Or I see all the apostles in hiding? And don’t forget doubting Thomas. Do I no longer listen to the remaining apostles. Or do I recognize their authority and listen to what they say and strive through God’s grace to behave even better than they do? We all can’t be perfect, hence we need Christ.

God Bless

 

[dredgtone]

jjanderson:

I’m sorry you’ve been treated with hostility. That isn’t good Christian behavior. Mother theresa loved and cared for ALL people, even atheists. People like her help to support my belief in God.

I believe you when you say your intuition and intellect don’t allow you to believe, but let me ask you this. Just because your intuition and intellect don’t allow you to believe, does that mean there is no God?

In my opinion yes. When i say I am not allowed to believe, it is not to say i want to believe and i can’t. I have no desire to believe based on my interpretation of my surroundings, nor do i have a desire to believe based on a longing for a higher power. I’m happy in my situation in life, I’ve questioned what i needed to question and that’s that.

That being said I’m always open to what comes across my path, if I find out I’m wrong I’ll repent tell God I’m sorry but I couldn’t help it, haha. But yeah, i have a pretty strong conviction that God does not exist. A creator possibly, but God as described, no.

 

[SpiritualSon]

Ontario:

In a certain sense you are right. The thief on the cross probably had no knowledge that Christ left his apostles to shepard his flock, and by the grace of God he was saved.

There is a general belief to-day that all are saved who,at the close of life, have certain pious thoughts and from their heart speak about salvation and concerning the Lord, especially if they then confess that the Lord suffered for them.

This opinion they confirm by Our Lord’s words to the thief, and by the oft-quoted assertion that ‘where the tree falls, there it will lie’: and this no matter how the man has lived through the whole course of his life.

Such teachings may afford some consolation to those at the point of death.They may allay anxious thought about one’s previous life, but the truth is quite otherwise.

It is the previous life that determines a man’s future happiness or unhappiness, and piety just before the hour of death does not take anything away from that life.

It is the present state of fearing death, that makes a man think and talk piously, and especially the cessation of the love of self and of the world, or the lulling of bodily and worldly cares.

When these cease, or are put to sleep, every one behaves in the same way.For it is the same bodily and worldly loves that present the only barrier to the reception of the good that inflows continually from the Lord.

As to the thief to whom the Lord’s words were spoken, he had been prepared beforehand; and with regard to the assertion that where a tree falls, there it will lie, this is simply untrue.

Still it may prove helpful as a consolation to the dying, for it is impossible to know the interior quality of any man in his previous life.

The Word teaches that people live after death, as for example, that God is not the God of the dead, but of the living (Matt. 22:32).Lazarus after death was taken up into heaven, but the rich man was cast into hell (Luke 16:22, 23ff).Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are there (Matt. 8:11; 22:31, 32; Luke 20:37, 38).Jesus said to the thief, Today you will be with me in paradise (Luke 23:43).

Harry

 

[Latoque]

for Dredgtone

You’re not the only one in here. I was born and raised rigidly Roman Catholic–8 years Catholic school, altar boy–the lot. I am now an agnostic atheist. Like you, I came to understand that belief or non belief is definitely not a choice. It is a realization. I could stand here and say all day long that I believe in something called “God”, but me saying it would not change the fact that I honestly believe nothing of the kind.

I got away from the RCC in my early twenties, and wound up marrying a Protestant. Neither of us ever made an issue over religion until the kids came along. We then briefly attended a Methodist church. I went through a divorce 10 years ago and did a lot of hard searching along the way. I am now openly and honestly atheistic. It is what feels right to me.

I got the link to this site from an atheist board I frequent. We’ll see how it goes. Should be interesting.

 

[dredgtone]

Latoque:

for Dredgtone

I came to understand that belief or non belief is definitely not a choice. It is a realization. I could stand here and say all day long that I believe in something called “God”, but me saying it would not change the fact that I honestly believe nothing of the kind.

I got the link to this site from an atheist board I frequent. We’ll see how it goes. Should be interesting.

Exactly Latoque… If there’s just one thing i want Christians to understand, it’s that atheism is not a choice. We are not rejecting God, we simply do not believe he exists. But no matter how hard i try to explain it, i still hear “Free Will” all the time =(

 

[jjanderson]

Dredgetone and Latoque, I have a couple questions. I have a brother who over the years said very atheistic things, but always stopped short of admitting to being an atheist. I do suspect that he does not believe in the Christian God. I sometimes think at times he’s very sad about this, but also very arogant about it at the same time. As his children got older his wife sort of put her foot down as far as him confusing them with hisviewpoints, and they have attended church and done the baptism, confirmation thing, etc., but I suspect he is just playing the role, one for unity’s sake and two, if there is a God he doesn’t want to risk turning his children away from Him. My questions are: Do you think there are “closet atheists” who vacilate between belief and unbelief? 2. If you have children, how do you handle the situation with them, and 3., do you sometimes view Christians as weak or needing their religion for a crutch? Thanks

 

[Ontario]

SpiritualSon:

There is a general belief to-day that all are saved who,at the close of life, have certain pious thoughts and from their heart speak about salvation and concerning the Lord, especially if they then confess that the Lord suffered for them. Harry

Your response rejecting the above made me a little uneasy, in that it seemed as if you were taking an opposite stance suggesting our previous “works” alone predisposed us to God.

The Catholic Church teaches that we are not saved by our works alone.

We are also not saved by our faith alone.

We are saved by God’s grace alone.

Sometimes past mistakes may help us in our turning towards God (the prodigal son left his father’s house only to return), but ultimately in that story it was the father’s prudential judgement to allow the son to go (free will), but always be there with an open door (always an opportunity to be saved).

Similarly, it was ultimately God’s grace with the miraculous conversion of Saint Paul to Christianity. I am not sure of any evidence that Paul’s past actions in and of themselves prepared him, although I would say that God’s Grace shows itself in people’s lives all the time. I am sure the father in the prodigal son perpared his son by being a good father of good graces.

What I am trying to say is that God gives sufficient Grace for every individual to be saved. It is up to the individual to respond to God’s grace. Each individual has free will and his life will take different turns based on his response to God (Holy Spirit), but at every step God is there waiting for conversion.

Also, we must note that not all who say Lord, Lord will be saved. So we are not saved by works alone.

Or faith alone, because Faith without works is dead (see James).

But we do now that “Baptism now saves you” ; (Saint Peter). For most of us this is water baptism coupled with Faith as a starting point upon which we must perservere to the end which is where the works really comes in by strengthening our faith and response to God.

But the Catholic church recognizes that although God has given us the Sacraments in this case baptism; He Himself is not restricted by them. People can come to God, who through no fault of their own do not come through the normative means prescribed by Christ, by this I mean He told the apostles to go forth and teach and baptize, but there are still people even today that the Church can’t physically reach (Aboringals in the Amazon, muslims in certain countries).

So for the thief, his starting point where he was first saved (in a state of Grace) by responding to God was probably on the cross, Christ acted outside the sacrament of baptism as He can.

Were there any works the thief could have done but didn’t (ie did he have a dead faith)? --no–

Did he after that point did he perservere to the end? --yes he didn’t reject God afterwards before dying.
Did he perform any bad works (mortal sins) thus rejecting all that God had previously shown him - no he stayed true to the Holy Spirit till the end.

Ultimately, we do not know a person’s heart and can’t normally determine if another person is in a state of Grace at any point. But if he is not and dies he will go to hell. If he is in a state of Grace he is destined to heaven.

The thief on the cross story is really also a story about two thieves. One responds, one doesn’t. They are both presented as thieves with no hint that their previous actions or works were any different. They both had sufficient Grace to respond at some point in their lives.

So its not a persons past life that determines it, it is God’s grace alone working in our lives and we with free will must respond to it.

 

[dredgtone]

My questions are: Do you think there are “closet atheists” who vacilate between belief and unbelief? 2. If you have children, how do you handle the situation with them, and 3., do you sometimes view Christians as weak or needing their religion for a crutch? Thanks

I’d say a closet atheist is nothing more than an agnostic. I don’t see how one can waver between belief and non belief unless inspired by extreme emotional chaos. Emotion seems to be the impetus for belief in the first place. It is non-belief that is a state of non-emotion. Any true atheist wouldn’t even go near belief in a higher being.

If i have children, i will not teach them atheism, nor will i teach them Christianity. I would teach them to think for themselves and let them choose their own destiny.

Christians are not weak-minded however I do see God as an emotional crutch. I do not see how being unable to explain why we are here or how we got here as being tantamount to justifying belief. One unanswered question is no justification to the alteration of one’s entire life and lifestyle. Because me personally, i just say I don’t know. So I realize that God gives people comfort and in that sense it is an emotional crutch. But everybody needs comfort, doesn’t mean anybody is weak-minded or stupid or any of that.

 

[SpiritualSon]

Ontario:

Your response rejecting the above made me a little uneasy, in that it seemed as if you were taking an opposite stance suggesting our previous “works” alone predisposed us to God.

The Catholic Church teaches that we are not saved by our works alone.

We are also not saved by our faith alone.

We are saved by God’s grace alone.

**It is impossible for Christ’s merit and righteousness to be imputed.

In order to know how impossible it is for the merit and righteousness of Jesus Christ to be imputed, it is necessary to know what His merit and righteousness are, The merit of our Lord the Saviour is redemption. It is there described as being the conquest of the hells and the ordering of the heavens, followed by the foundation of a church; and so it was shown that it was an entirely Divine deed.

It was also shown there that by redemption the Lord gave Himself the power to regenerate and save people who believe in Him and keep His commandments.Without this act of redemption no flesh could have been saved. Since then redemption was an entirely Divine deed, and was the Lord’s alone, this being His merit, it follows that this cannot be applied, attributed or imputed to any human being, any more than the creation and preservation of the universe can. Redemption was also a kind of fresh creation of the heaven of angels, and also of the church.

The present-day church attributes that merit of the Lord the Redeemer to those who acquire faith by *grace. This is plain from their dogmas, among which this is the principal. For the hierarchy of that church and their adherents, both in the Roman Catholic as well as in the Reformed churches, hold that through the imputation of Christ’s merit those who have acquired faith are not merely counted righteous and holy, but actually are. They also assert that their sins are not sins in the sight of God, because they are forgiven; and they themselves are justified, that is, reconciled, made new, regenerated, sanctified and enlisted in heaven. This is the teaching of the whole Christian church at the present time, as is evident from the Council of Trent, the Confessions of Augusta and Augsburg, and from the commentaries quoted and generally accepted.

The inevitable consequence of what was said above, when transferred to that belief, is that the possession of that faith is that merit and righteousness of the Lord, and it follows that its possessor is Christ under another name. For it is said that Christ Himself is righteousness, and that that faith is righteousness, and that imputation (understood as meaning also attribution and application) makes them not only to be counted, but actually to be, righteous and holy. You have only to add transcription to imputation, application and attribution, and you will be a Pope, Christ’s vicar.

Harry

 

[Latoque]

" I have a brother who over the years said very atheistic things, but always stopped short of admitting to being an atheist. I do suspect that he does not believe in the Christian God. I sometimes think at times he’s very sad about this, but also very arogant about it at the same time. As his children got older his wife sort of put her foot down as far as him confusing them with hisviewpoints, and they have attended church and done the baptism, confirmation thing, etc., but I suspect he is just playing the role, one for unity’s sake and two, if there is a God he doesn’t want to risk turning his children away from Him. My questions are: Do you think there are “closet atheists” who vacilate between belief and unbelief? 2. If you have children, how do you handle the situation with them, and 3., do you sometimes view Christians as weak or needing their religion for a crutch?"

As far as your brother’s family situation goes, sounds kind of grim to me. The wife censoring her husband’s honest beliefs vis a vis his own children cannot be a good thing. I don’t imagine it does much for the marital relationship either. If he says nothing to the kids about his feelings on the matter, he is indulging in the theological version of walking on eggshells in his own home. He is also living a lie and being disengenuous with his kids. If they haven’t already, they will eventually figure out that something is amiss. Kids are not stupid and pick up on all sorts of clues quickly. Just how does his wife expect him to handle a question like “gee Dad–how come you don’t go to church with the rest of us?”

Yes I have three children, but they are grown up and gone, but I didn’t consider myself atheistic when they were young so it was never a factor in their upbringing. They had nominal teaching as Methodists, but none of them ever went to church on a regular basis, and still don’t to this day.

Yes there are plenty of closet atheists around. As far as vacilation goes–there is always uncertainty about God-belief for them, until they fully take the time to examine just what is required by way of belief to be any kind of Christian and accept the fact that they don’t honestly believe it any more. A lot of people will identify themselves as agnostic, since it doesn’t have the same social stigma sometimes attached to the word “atheist”. That is another matter for another thread–just suffice it to say for the time being that there is an enormous amount of misinformation floating around in Christian (and other) circles about just what an atheist or an agnostic actually is. Just remember that agnosticism is not a middle ground of belief. You either believe in the thing or you don’t.

Having said that though, a lot of them stay in the closet for all the usual reasons, mostly to avoid confrontations with family members, co-workers, fellow students etc.

I suppose Christainity can be seen as a crutch in times of trouble. That does not make Christians silly, or stupid or anything else, nor do I think it makes them “weak” in any sense. Hard as it is sometimes, I try not to paint people with the same brush based on one criteria, like being Christian (or anything else for that matter). It’s too easy to stereotype people like that.

There—clear as mud, right?

 

[Latoque]

for jAnderson:

As far as your brother’s family situation goes, sounds kind of grim to me. The wife censoring her husband’s honest beliefs vis a vis his own children cannot be a good thing. I don’t imagine it does much for the marital relationship either. If he says nothing to the kids about his feelings on the matter, he is indulging in the theological version of walking on eggshells in his own home. He is also living a lie and being disengenuous with his kids. If they haven’t already, they will eventually figure out that something is amiss. Kids are not stupid and pick up on all sorts of clues quickly. Just how does his wife expect him to handle a question like “gee Dad–how come you don’t go to church with the rest of us?”

Yes I have three children, but they are grown up and gone, but I didn’t consider myself atheistic when they were young so it was never a factor in their upbringing. They had nominal teaching as Methodists, but none of them ever went to church on a regular basis, and still don’t to this day.

Yes there are plenty of closet atheists around. As far as vacilation goes–there is always uncertainty about God-belief for them, until they fully take the time to examine just what is required by way of belief to be any kind of Christian and accept the fact that they don’t honestly believe it any more. A lot of people will identify themselves as agnostic, since it doesn’t have the same social stigma sometimes attached to the word “atheist”. That is another matter for another thread–just suffice it to say for the time being that there is an enormous amount of misinformation floating around in Christian (and other) circles about just what an atheist or an agnostic actually is. Just remember that agnosticism is not a middle ground of belief. You either believe in the thing or you don’t.

Having said that though, a lot of them stay in the closet for all the usual reasons, mostly to avoid confrontations with family members, co-workers, fellow students etc.

I suppose Christainity can be seen as a crutch in times of trouble. That does not make Christians silly, or stupid or anything else, nor do I think it makes them “weak” in any sense. Hard as it is sometimes, I try not to paint people with the same brush based on one criteria, like being Christian (or anything else for that matter). It’s too easy to stereotype people like that.

There—clear as mud, right?

 

[Ontario]

SpiritualSon:

They also assert that their sins are not sins in the sight of God, because they are forgiven; and they themselves are justified, that is, reconciled, made new, regenerated, sanctified and enlisted in heaven.

There is a difference between some protestants and Catholics re: justification.

Some protestants are exactly as you say above in that they believe their sins are covered by Christ, by which they mean God the Father does not see these sins at all. Like a big white blanket with all the dirt possibly still underneath. They often tout the banner “Once saved, always saved” so that no sin they commit aftwards makes a difference.

However, the Catholic church believes and teaches that most fall short and indeed have the stain of sin when they die. Let me be clear that I am only talking only about those in God’s grace (faith, good works, no unrepented/unforgiven mortal sin). In this case we need purification (suffering of loss a.k.a. purgatory) of because nothing unclean may enter heaven. Of course if we are not in a state of grace by say rejecting our faith later, having a dead faith (without works), being unrepented of mortal sin we go elsewhere, namely hell. No second chances.

"If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire (1 Cor. 3:11-15). "

 

[jjanderson]

Latoque:

for jAnderson:

As far as your brother’s family situation goes, sounds kind of grim to me. The wife censoring her husband’s honest beliefs vis a vis his own children cannot be a good thing. I don’t imagine it does much for the marital relationship either. If he says nothing to the kids about his feelings on the matter, he is indulging in the theological version of walking on eggshells in his own home. He is also living a lie and being disengenuous with his kids. If they haven’t already, they will eventually figure out that something is amiss. Kids are not stupid and pick up on all sorts of clues quickly. Just how does his wife expect him to handle a question like “gee Dad–how come you don’t go to church with the rest of us?”

I think he freely chooses to allow a Christian atmosphere in their lives. I think he’s happy that his family are Christians, even if he’s not, and I feel that he’s doing the honorable and unselfish thing.
He also goes to church with them sometimes. I think he sees no harm in it. Which brings me to the next question:

Are virtues like honor, putting others first, unselfishness etc. considered by you to be “Christian virtues” or can an atheist, say, be totally or self-giving or give his life for someone else, and still be consistant with his belief system? Thanks Peace

 

[jjanderson]

dredgtone:

belief and non belief unless inspired by extreme emotional chaos. Emotion seems to be the impetus for belief in the first place. It is non-belief that is a state of non-emotion. Any true atheist wouldn’t even go near belief in a higher being.

Are you saying that atheists are emotionally dead? Will atheists indulge in any sentiment whatsover, like patriotism, compassion for strangers, love for fellow human beings? Thanks, Peace