Former Catholics...

[qui_est_ce]

Maybe I should’ve been more clear about what I have a problem with since I was awfully vague:

Idolatry

The Catholic Churches teaches that we are to worship ONLY the one True God in three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Catholic.com:
“Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God’” (CCC 2114).

The Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry. What anti-Catholics fail to recognize is the distinction between thinking a piece of stone or plaster is a god and desiring to visually remember Christ and the saints in heaven by making statues in their honor. The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know his Bible.

NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004

 

[JRKH]

I have read this thread with great interest and while I haven’t read every post I felt compelled to join in.

I was a cradle catholic and my parents were devout. I went to catholic school for 8 years and got all the usual treatments. Then I went to public high school.
I drifted away in my early 20’s, as I’m sure many do once they are away from the disciplines of their parents homes. Anyway, I did not leave for any anger at God or the church. I just drifted. Of course, there were a number of questions and issues I had with the church as regards “ritual” vs belief vs faith etc. But I continued to believe in God and to tried and trust him.

The Holy Spirit did lead me - to the bible, - to the eastern faiths, - to history, - and back again. In all of this I learned many valuable lessons. First of all is that one of the greatest stumbling blocks to faith and salvation can be Religion. **Any Religion!! **Religion is nothing more than a physical manifistation, of faith, an “outward sign if you will. The problem comes in when a Church becomes too involved in the physical world or the faithful come to believe that faith and religion are synonymous.

There are those people who, because of their level of inteligence, eduaction, or just their character, need the comfort of a simple faith of belief, ritual and simple obedience. I accept that and find no fault with these children of God. My own father was just this type. A man of simple faith. When Vatican II was implimented, he had many questions and issues with it. He and my mother discussed it. His response was simple. “I was born and raised Catholic and I will die Catholic. They can do whatever they wish.”. His basic faith was such that he would continue to attend mass, take sthe acrements etc. until the day he died.

Many of us here on this board however have the gift, or curse, of intellectual curiosity. We simply cannot accept things on blind faith and so we start questioning. We look for someone with answers. If these people are unable or unwilling to answer our questions the odds are we will leave the Church. I was appalled to read the post from someone who went on retreat and asked a lot of questions. How horrible to be blown off like that. (I believe the response of the priest was “If you have this many questions, maybe you shouldn’t be Catholic.) How horrible.

The responses to this thread show people who were going through the motions until they had an epiphany. An experience that took them to another sect or religion or out of organized religion altogether. But conversions to Catholicism are just as viable as conversions away, so it isn’t necessarily a case of Catholicism being wrong and another religion being right. Rather, it seems to me to be a case of “The devil is in the details”, and a need to find something that fits our intellect.

I have returned to the church. My reasons are not terribly profound. One is familiarity. I am comfortable there as is my wife, and we are battling a demon called Alzheimers.
Second is the saraments, particularly the Eucharist.
Third was a realization that, while Jesus had many issues with the “Jewish Church”, he did not leave it. Rather he stayed and taught, and debated, and evangelized and ultimately died a faithful Jew.

If I were to point out one thing that really led me back to Christ in Catholicism, I’d have to say it was the Bible itself. Not the “Word of God” aspect per se, but the history of it. How it was assembled, what changes were made, how to interpret it within a historical and socialogical context. These are all things that I investigated and I came to some interesting conclusions such as:

1. So Called “Bible Christians” almost never know the real history of the Bible’s creation. I have stopped many an evangelist in his/her tracks by asking, “Which Bible. Oh you mean the one missing six books?”
2. Because they don’t know this history, they are totally unaware that the Bible was origionally assembled, translated, and maintained by the Catholic Church for the first millenium plus.
3. The best way to read and interpret Christian Scripture is to:
   First: Accept the death and resurection of Jesus. Without this your not Christian
   Second: Look for the actual teachings and says of Christ as recorded in the Gospels. Plus make sure that you look at these in the context of the time and place. Leave Acts and the Letters till later.
   Third: Look at the other data in the new testament. (I skip revelation though. Too difficult.)
   Fourth: Remember that Jesus did not write anything down. This must be significant. Figure out why.
   Fifth: Recognize that, while the old testament has much useful information in it, it has little real bearing on Christianity. If it did, we would all have to keep Kosher.

There is much more but maybe I need to start another thread.

James

 

[Emily_CA]

Hi Qui Just responding to your questions/comments …

Where in the Bible does it say you exist?

“You turn things upside down, as if the potter were thought to be like the clay! Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, “He did not make me”? Can the pot say of the potter, “He knows nothing”?” (Isaiah 29:16)

"But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” (Romans 9:20)

You still haven’t answered my question of where (not who wrote) the Bible.

Yes, and out of all the “gospels” and literature that was out there at the time, who decided to put it all together. Did the manuscript just drop out of heaven?? Who decided 1400 years after the Council of Hippo, that James was “strawey” and removed the letter of James and Revelation (and then replaced because of the outcry) and OT books, the Apocrophia? Who kept the Bible alive during the dark ages when the Barbarians came and destroyed civilization?

Where did the Bible came from? I don’t profess to know the full 6,000+/- year history of the Bible, nor have I studied the canonization of the Bible. I do know that the Jews are the ones who maintained and preserved the Old Testament over the literally thousands of years that have passed since its books were written. I know that it was written by men, inspired by God, and as the Bible itself says, every word is God-breathed. (2 Timothy 3:16) I assume the point you are trying to drive at is that the Catholic Church are the original creators/authors and owners of the Bible?

There is only one Church, the Church established on earth by Jesus Christ. And the gates of Hell will not prevail against it.

You have a misconception of what the church is, the church is not a building but the body of Christ, which are all of the followers of Jesus Christ. (See below)

Who started your church?

Jesus Christ, My Savior and Redeemer, “started” my church when He commended His Spirit to God the Father on the cross and said “It is finished”. Again, the “church” is not a building or a man-made religion, the church is comprised of the entire body of Christ.

“But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it. Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.” (1 Corinthians 12:20-27) (emphasis/bolding mine)

 

[Emily_CA]

Then you will go further in Acts and explain this - Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
He replied, “*How can I, unless someone instructs me?” So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him. *32

What you quoted here actually starts at Acts 8:30 not Acts 27, I point this out because this is Acts 8:26-29:

"Now an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, “Arise and go toward the south along the road which goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” This is desert. So he arose and went. And behold, a man of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge of all her treasury, and had come to Jerusalem to worship, was returning. And sitting in his chariot, he was reading Isaiah the prophet. Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go near and overtake this chariot.” (Acts 8:26-29)

Just wanted to point out that the Spirit is talking to Philip here

"So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him. The place in the Scripture which he read was this:" (Acts 8:30-32)

Please note that this man (the eunuch) was an unbeliever, and Philip led this non-believer to Christ.

"So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?” Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” (Acts 8:34-37)

This doesn’t disprove that the Holy Spirit helps us discern scripture. As 1 Corinthians 2:14 says, “But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

This is why the Holy Catholic Church of the Apostles is one, and there are 33,000+ other churches of me who have interpreted Scripture, under the influence of the Holy Spirit, which, if I believed in Protestantism, would be fractured into 33,000 pieces. :yup:

I honestly don’t see how this passage proves that “the Holy Catholic Church of the Apostles is one”. My foundation is in Jesus Christ, not in a man-made religion, a man-made church or the word/interpretation of man, but the one and only infallible Word of the LORD, which is easily understood with the help of the Holy Spirit. The Word of the LORD stands **forever **… and it will never, ever be fractured.

I honestly do respect your opinion Qui, I understand that this is what you believe and I respect your right to choose to worship how, when and where you want because that’s between you and the Lord. My only main and most important reason (why I’m posting here) is to emphasize the importance of being born again and forging a true and intense individual relationship with Jesus Christ, which happens when you are born again of the Holy Spirit.

I was never ever instructed about this in all of my years attending catechism or Catholic church. No one ever spoke of the importance of being born again, or what it meant. And as a result I was not able to experience this awesome spiritual reformation until I was 33 years old.

Jesus said, “In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.” (John 3:3) This is pretty darn important, don’t you think? This should have been spoken of at every single mass, explained at catechism, or at least at confirmation, which is supposed to be the time when I was “born again” at 13 or 14 (but I wasn’t because it was just a ritual with no meaning), and yet I never heard of what it meant to be born again, even once in 20 years of Catholicism. And yes, I do wish someone had told me earlier, but no one did.

"But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD." (Joshua 24:14-15)

 

[JRKH]

Hi Qui
Where did the Bible came from? I don’t profess to know the full 6,000+/- year history of the Bible, nor have I studied the canonization of the Bible. I do know that the Jews are the ones who maintained and preserved the Old Testament over the literally thousands of years that have passed since its books were written. I know that it was written by men, inspired by God, and as the Bible itself says, every word is God-breathed. (2 Timothy 3:16) I assume the point you are trying to drive at is that the Catholic Church are the original creators/authors and owners of the Bible?

Emily,
It is important to remember that when 2 timothy 3:16 was written, the Bible did not exist. The quoted verse refers to “All Scripture” and thus can only be refering to old testament scripture. This is the problem with using scripture to prove the validity of the Bible.
The canon of the Bible was not compiled until 200 some years after the last books comprising it were written.

The Church Fathers, the Bishops of the Sole Christian Church (Catholic), convened to review all the texts that were being used at the time because of the great variations of teaching they contained. There were literally hundreds of variations. Some so fantastic that they were discarded out of hand. Others contained much of truth but there were objections in them. The books ultimately chosen were the ones that all (or most) of the Bishops could agree on. Thus the Bible is intended to be the basic primer and not the be-all of Chritianity. This is a basic difference between Catholicism and Protestism. The Catholic church teaches from a huge repository of inspired writings and historical documentation.

If we accept the Bible is the word of God then the Holy Spirit must have inspired those who assembled it, copied it, translated it, protected it and interpreted it. And that is the catholic Church.

If the Church was not “Devinely Inspired” when it assembled, copied, translated, and protected the Bible then the Bible has no authority and never has.

Blessings and Peace on your Journey
James

 

[MarcoPolo]

Where did the Bible came from? I don’t profess to know the full 6,000+/- year history of the Bible, nor have I studied the canonization of the Bible. I do know that the Jews are the ones who maintained and preserved the Old Testament over the literally thousands of years that have passed since its books were written. I know that it was written by men, inspired by God, and as the Bible itself says, every word is God-breathed. (2 Timothy 3:16) I assume the point you are trying to drive at is that the Catholic Church are the original creators/authors and owners of the Bible?

Did you even read my post 114?

 

[Emily_CA]

What Catholics believe more specifically is that this gift of the Spirit is not something for individuals to run around claiming posession to, this would make chaos and indeed it has deeply fragmented the Protestant church into thousands of competing factions all claiming the One Spirit.

Hi Jordan

Well, I understand what you’re saying and I believe that your point is likely that the Catholic Church is validated by its longevity/history and its size, its millions of members, whereas protestant churches do not have one, giant church. I’m really not here to debate Protestant vs. Catholic, or to defend Protestants, as I am not a Protestant, I am a born again Christian, I don’t have a “denomination” because I don’t believe in following man, or man-made religion, I believe in following Jesus Christ, because His Name is the only Name under Heaven by which I (or anyone) can be saved. My guidance is the Word of God and the Holy Spirit.

I understand that you believe that “this gift of the Spirit is not something for individuals to run around claiming posession to”, but the Bible says quite the opposite. It IS a gift to us, from God. We don’t deserve it, but we receive it not because of who we are and what we do or don’t do, but because of HIM and His Grace and Mercy and incredible Love!!

“If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” (Luke 11:13)

"Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 2:38)

“The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.” (Acts 10:45)

“Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed.” (1 Corinthians 1:7)

“Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.” (1 Corinthians 12:7)

There’s no point in discussing being born again with Catholics. **Catholics are being born again everyday **in Christ through His Church.

Well, I respectfully disagree, as I was a Catholic for 20 years and I was never born again. I eventually left the church and turned away from the Lord. By the grace and mercy of the LORD I was born again on August 11, 2004. It had nothing to do with the catholic church. I suddenly realized that Jesus was real, His sacrifice was real, and I repented, and asked Jesus to forgive me and asked Him to come in to my life, and I was born again. My life was changed drastically and forever, and all the credit, honor and glory goes to the LORD. No credit at all to the Catholic Church actually, because they never ever ever once instructed me or taught me what it meant to be born again.

The Church maintains a lineage that goes back into Apostolic times…

I’m going to answer you by explaining why I won’t answer this.

I am very familiar with the New Testament and Timothy (one of my favorite books). I do study the bible at church service, at bible study at the church, on my own as well as a family bible study. I understand that this is what you believe and I’m certainly not here to disrespect anyone’s belief system or religion, and I don’t want to get into this discussion in-depth.

Picking apart the Catholic church using the Bible is something that happened (to my surprise) as I read the Bible (“alone” but for the Holy Spirit ) for the first time after I was born again. As I read the new testament I saw with my own eyes how what I was taught in the Catholic Church were directly contradicted in the Bible. No one told me to hate the Catholic church and to look for contradictions in the bible. I was raised in the catholic church and after being born again was considering returning to the church because I was determined to follow Jesus. But as I read the bible, the contradictions were clear as day.

I have several Catholic family members and I’m more than well aware of what happens when you start to point out these contradictions. It is not met with a warm reception and I can understand and appreciate that, as Catholicism is something that was woven in with my family, traditions, culture, and many memories. So, I understand the depth of the tie to this church. It was our life for a very long time. And I’m definitely not here to get into that discussion because I really don’t want to degrade this conversation.

I’m well read and well studied in the Bible, and I have the knowledge of the church as a former Catholic, but I choose not to “go there”, in this thread. If you want to talk about it privately or in another thread that specifically addresses this issue I will discuss it.

 

[qui_est_ce]

What you quoted here actually starts at Acts 8:30 not Acts 27, I point this out because this is Acts 8:26-29:

"Now an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, “Arise and go toward the south along the road which goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” This is desert. So he arose and went. And behold, a man of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge of all her treasury, and had come to Jerusalem to worship, was returning. And sitting in his chariot, he was reading Isaiah the prophet. Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go near and overtake this chariot.” (Acts 8:26-29)

Just wanted to point out that the Spirit is talking to Philip here

"So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him. The place in the Scripture which he read was this:" (Acts 8:30-32)

You are right I quoted the wrong verse. Philip was an Apostle, who was ordained by Christ to go out to the world. The Apostles were given the Authority to preach (first bishops)

Please note that this man (the eunuch) was an unbeliever, and Philip led this non-believer to Christ.

We are all unbelievers until we are authoritatively taught.

This doesn’t disprove that the Holy Spirit helps us discern scripture.

I never said that the Holy Spirit does not help us discern.

I honestly don’t see how this passage proves that “the Holy Catholic Church of the Apostles is one”.

I used the passage to say the Bible is not as self-evident as you say. We need inspired authority to teach us. I’m not saying the Holy Spirit doesn’t help us when we read the Bible, but we need to read it within a clear frameowork, otherwise you get JW’s version and interpretation. and 33,000+ Protestant churches, Pentecostal, LDS.

My foundation is in Jesus Christ, not in a man-made religion, a man-made church or the word/interpretation of man, but the one and only infallible Word of the LORD, which is easily understood with the help of the Holy Spirit. The Word of the LORD stands **forever **… and it will never, ever be fractured.

The Catholic Church is not man-made, Jesus started it on Pentecost. He gave Peter the keys

I honestly do respect your opinion Qui, I understand that this is what you believe and I respect your right to choose to worship how, when and where you want because that’s between you and the Lord. My only main and most important reason (why I’m posting here) is to emphasize the importance of being born again and forging a true and intense individual relationship with Jesus Christ, which happens when you are born again of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is my Lord and savior, I feed on His body and blood every morning at mass. How much more intimate can you get?

I was never ever instructed about this in all of my years attending catechism or Catholic church. No one ever spoke of the importance of being born again, or what it meant. And as a result I was not able to experience this awesome spiritual reformation until I was 33 years old.

You probably just don’t remember, because that is what is being taught to my kids in Catholic school. What is your definitions of being born again? Don’t you think Catholics go through a conversion process? Conversion is a journey, not a one time experience. I have had several conversion experiences over the past years.

"But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD." (Joshua 24:14-15)

Amen

Once you know the Truth you are bound to follow it or go to Hell. TThose to whom much is given, much will be required.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Emily,

If we accept the Bible is the word of God then the Holy Spirit must have inspired those who assembled it, copied it, translated it, protected it and interpreted it. And that is the catholic Church.

If the Church was not “Devinely Inspired” when it assembled, copied, translated, and protected the Bible then the Bible has no authority and never has.

Blessings and Peace on your Journey
James

Well said fellow Bible Christian

 

[Emily_CA]

It is important to remember that when 2 timothy 3:16 was written, the Bible did not exist. The quoted verse refers to “All Scripture” and thus can only be refering to old testament scripture.

Hi JRKH.

I disagree with what you’re saying here … the Bible has declared itself as God’s Word, and declares its own authority and innerancy. Your statement here seems to imply that God didn’t know what He would write? Your statement seems to imply that the Bible is a book written by men that was compiled by men, who were inspired by God. This is incorrect. God doesn’t need man — man needs GOD. God is omniscient, omnipotent. God already knew before He even created the universe and us what His Word would say. God wrote the Bible, God put the Bible together, the Bible is God’s Word. That is my belief and it is backed by scripture. I understand that is not what you believe so let’s agree to disagree.

This is the problem with using scripture to prove the validity of the Bible.

WOW this is so shocking to me. I’m kind of blown away that a Christian would say this. Your statement here is blasphemy to me. The Bible is God’s Word. God has placed His Word above His own Name (Psalm 138:2) … so if you cannot respect the intensity and authority of His Word and promises I really don’t know what to say, except that we have very different beliefs and a very different relationship with Jesus.

The Church Fathers, the Bishops of the Sole Christian Church (Catholic), convened to review all the texts that were being used at the time because of the great variations of teaching they contained. There were literally hundreds of variations. Some so fantastic that they were discarded out of hand. … Others contained much of truth but there were objections in them.

As I said earlier I have not studied the history of the bible or the canonization. But I have read a little about it and on what criteria the books were chosen. You assume that the church determined the canon but even the Catholic Church doesn’t claim that to be true (See Vatican I and II). The church merely discovered what God Himself created.

If we accept the Bible is the word of God then the Holy Spirit must have inspired those who assembled it, copied it, translated it, protected it and interpreted it. And that is the catholic Church. If the Church was not “Devinely Inspired” when it assembled, copied, translated, and protected the Bible then the Bible has no authority and never has.

James God is the author of the Bible, not the catholic church. You seem to put the catholic church above the very God you worship, and I must admit I find that scary. All the glory and honor should go to the LORD, not to the men who are supposed to serve Him.

I worship the LORD in spirit and in truth. I don’t worship the words or traditions of men. I choose Jesus.

 

[Emily_CA]

Once you know the Truth you are bound to follow it or go to Hell. Those to whom much is given, much will be required.

Agreed. God bless you and your family, Qui.

 

[JRKH]

Hi JRKH.

I disagree with what you’re saying here … the Bible has declared itself as God’s Word, and declares its own authority and innerancy. Your statement here seems to imply that God didn’t know what He would write? Your statement seems to imply that the Bible is a book written by men that was compiled by men, who were inspired by God. This is incorrect. God doesn’t need man — man needs GOD. God is omniscient, omnipotent. God already knew before He even created the universe and us what His Word would say. God wrote the Bible, God put the Bible together, the Bible is God’s Word. That is my belief and it is backed by scripture. I understand that is not what you believe so let’s agree to disagree.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree since you are satisfied with the knowledge you have. I will respect that. Just let me say that I had many questions about the Bible and it’s authority so I went looking. After all Muslims have a book from god too and they are just as adamant as you as to it’s authenticity.

WOW this is so shocking to me. I’m kind of blown away that a Christian would say this. Your statement here is blasphemy to me. The Bible is God’s Word. God has placed His Word above His own Name (Psalm 138:2) … so if you cannot respect the intensity and authority of His Word and promises I really don’t know what to say, except that we have very different beliefs and a very different relationship with Jesus.

If your stetement here is true, then why are there different translations, different interpretations and even different numbers of books? God’s Word is pure Truth. This Truth cannot be expressed in the inferior language of men. That is why Jesus came. Didn’t he declare, “I am the way the truth and the light?”
So why didn’t he write it down while he was here?
Because God’s Truth cannot be contained within the limited scope of human language and imagination. Therefore various writers at various times and places wrote, as best they could, what the spirit taught them.
But this was not codified until the Church did it. That is history.

As I said earlier I have not studied the history of the bible or the canonization. But I have read a little about it and on what criteria the books were chosen. You assume that the church determined the canon but even the Catholic Church doesn’t claim that to be true (See Vatican I and II). The church merely discovered what God Himself created.

This is mainly semantics. Of course the Church does not claim authorship. What the church fathers did was look at the various teachings, Gospels and texts available and determine that would be universally taught. I do hope that at some future date you will take the time to read a good history on the early church and read some of the early church Fathers. It will deepen and not destroy your faith.

James God is the author of the Bible, not the catholic church. You seem to put the catholic church above the very God you worship, and I must admit I find that scary. All the glory and honor should go to the LORD, not to the men who are supposed to serve Him.

I worship the LORD in spirit and in truth. I don’t worship the words or traditions of men. I choose Jesus.

Yes. Glory to God in the Highest.
But if the bible can be quoted to justify horrific acts as well as redeeming ones, I must look critically at it so that I may properly interpret it and what God wants of me.

The Spirit has moved us in different ways. May God continue to Bless you on your Journey.

James

 

[Jordan_Francis]

Hey Emily,

I think we should discuss here for a moment the Christian reception of the Holy Spirit and what role that plays in terms of interpreting scripture and infalibility.

I understand that you believe that “this gift of the Spirit is not something for individuals to run around claiming posession to”, but the Bible says quite the opposite

I would agree that the reception of the Holy Spirit by each individual Christian when he or she is recieved into Christ is a fundamental concept to Christianity. I’m glad we agree this far. Every Christian is invigorated in their spiritual life and participates in the life the Trinity by guidance of the Holy Spirit, who leads us into Christ, and Christ to His Father.

“If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” (Luke 11:13)

"Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 2:38)

“The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.” (Acts 10:45)

“Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed.” (1 Corinthians 1:7)

“Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.” (1 Corinthians 12:7)

As the scripture you quoted demonstrates, the Spirit is the source of the spiritual life of every Christian. The Holy Spirit gives us strength, wisdom and guidance through our Christian journey. It is the source of our sustenance, it moves us to prayer and repentence and it unites us as a community in Christ.

However, we should also keep in mind the whole of scripture. The Gift of the Holy Spirit does not move us all to do the same things, nor does the gift of the Holy Spirit manifest itself in the same way in all people. In Romans 12, St. Paul writes:

4Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man’s gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to hisfaith. 7If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.

So, with you Emily all Catholics affirm that the gift of the Holy Spirit is imparted to all sincere Christians. However, because of our understanding of Christ’s Body as being composed of many members, every Christian has a different role to play. The Holy Spirit has not given every person the gift to interpret the Word of God in a perfect light. The Holy Spirit has not given everyone the gift of teaching, prophesying, or leading.

If we look to the Protestant churches where every member is considered to be guided by the Holy Spirit in his or her interpretation, we see a deeply fragmented community that goes against Paul’s fervent mission to keep the Body of Christ unified. When we look to Catholics, we see that the role of teaching and interpreting is manfiest in certain members, in the Pope and Magesterium, in the bishops. In this way, the Holy Spirit moves and guides all, but does so in a way that gives diversity to the members of the Body and fiercely preserves its unity.

The Catholic understanding of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, in my opinion, is the only understanding that continues the prayer of Jesus to his Father:

---

I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one. John 17:11***

Protestants seem to have long lost this concern for unity.

 

[cheddarsox]

Not a problem…but why are you here on a Catholic Forum, if you are not interested in Christianity? I have to believe you are trying to educate yourself.

Good question. I actually have left the forums, except continued to visit this thread because I had been part of it. But several responses I have received, from you and others point out that perhaps my (name removed by moderator)ut here is pointless. So, I guess I will bow out.

People will draw their own conclusions no matter what I post anyway, so my (name removed by moderator)ut is clearly uneccessary.

it’s been interesting.

 

[JRKH]

Good question. I actually have left the forums, except continued to visit this thread because I had been part of it. But several responses I have received, from you and others point out that perhaps my (name removed by moderator)ut here is pointless. So, I guess I will bow out.

People will draw their own conclusions no matter what I post anyway, so my (name removed by moderator)ut is clearly uneccessary.

it’s been interesting.

I’m sorry to hear that. Your posts are interesting and informative. If there are only Catholics here we’ll just start fighting amongst ourselves and that’s no fun.

Honestly. I enjoy other views. I hope you peek in from time to time.

James

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:Originally Posted by JRKH forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif

It is important to remember that when 2 timothy 3:16 was written, the Bible did not exist. The quoted verse refers to “All Scripture” and thus can only be refering to old testament scripture.
Hi JRKH.

I disagree with what you’re saying here … the Bible has declared itself as God’s Word, and declares its own authority and innerancy.

What are the words which dclare this?

What language are they declared in?

Are God’s words readable in other than human language form?

Your statement here seems to imply that God didn’t know what He would write?

Then your peception is a bit askew, as that can’t possibly be true.

Your statement seems to imply that the Bible is a book written by men that was compiled by men, who were inspired by God.

The Word of God is Jesus. The Bible is the adequately necessary subset of the transmittable portion of the Word of God, Jesus.

The Bible is written. God’s Word, Jesus, is not “written”. He IS.

The Bible is a part of the deposit of faith, and not the whole of the deposit of faith.

The Bible is inspired verbage compiled by the Body of Christ, the Church, written by inspired human beings, in human languages, in human terms, for human beings to read.

You’re free to disagree with that, but to do so is to cut yourself off from the full deposit of faith, which serves you less in your path to salvation than being fully connected to the full deposit of faith.

If you want to make life more difficult for yourself, so be it.

This is incorrect. God doesn’t need man — man needs GOD.

This is very moslem in flavor.

God created man so that man would know God. It pleases God for man to know Him. It pleases God less that man chooses to know God less than he could by refusing what God has offered in it’s fullness.

God is omniscient, omnipotent. God already knew before He even created the universe and us what His Word would say.

Are you confusing, again, God’s Word with “the Bible”?

God wrote the Bible,

God inspired men to write the truth, which they did, in their own languages, using the concepts of their own cultures, with their own hands. The Bible did not exist as a corpus (book) until it was time for it to exist as such, which was AFTER the Church had continued Jesus’ work as He had told them to do so.

The Body of Christ created and spread the information contained in the Bible even before the Bible itself existed.

God put the Bible together,

God, as the Body of Christ, created the corpus we call the Bible.

the Bible is God’s Word.

Jesus is God’s Word. The Bible is the adequately necessary portion of the deposit of faith from the Body of Christ, but not the whole of the deposit of faith.

That is my belief and it is backed by scripture.

Your belief is partially correct, but not fully correct. Your use of scripture to justify your belief ultimately reduces to your belief that you are a fully valid interpreter of God’s Word. That is incorrect, because you misunderstand what God’s Word is, what the actual deposit of faith is, and why God never simply “infuses” revelation ALL AT ONCE into human beings, or even whole human cultures.

I understand that is not what you believe so let’s agree to disagree.

If you don’t wish to talk about it, why are you talking about it?

You are talking about it because you need to bring people to the truth, which is our common goal.

Since you have made thoroughly clear that you don’t understand some rather basic Catholic thinking, you would be better able to “convert” Catholics to your side if you did understand them, and you come to understand them by conversing with us about them.

Talk and learn, dearheart.

Quote:This is the problem with using scripture to prove the validity of the Bible.
WOW this is so shocking to me. I’m kind of blown away that a Christian would say this.

Of course you are! You don’t see anything in the deposit of faith, overtly, as valid other than the Bible.

Since only the Bible validates anything, only the Bible CAN validate the Bible…!

That’s perfectly logical. Though perfectly faulty, as only the entire deposit of faith can truly validate anything.

Your statement here is blasphemy to me. The Bible is God’s Word.

Once again, God’s Word is Jesus. The Bible is a great, but partial, element of the WHOLE DEPOSIT OF FAITH, which is the actual content of faith from which we draw.

…continued below →

 

[Keikiolu]

…continued from above:

God has placed His Word above His own Name (Psalm 138:2)

David is speaking:
(Ps138:2) I bow down toward thy holy temple
and give thanks to thy name for thy steadfast love and
thy faithfullness;
for thou hast exhalted above everything
thy name and thy word.

God has exhalted both His name AND His word. His “word” is Jesus, as the Body of Christ, which is the full deposit of faith along with the people alive and in purgation, saints, and Jesus Himself as Head.

To limit “God’s Word” to only some verbage is, to us, a shameful near-blasphemy, but one done in largely innocent error, as you’ve been misled by those with more “personality” power than yourself.

… so if you cannot respect the intensity and authority of His Word and promises I really don’t know what to say,

If you cannot respect the full CONTENT of God’s gratuitously given gifts, the full deposit of faith, then we can only feel sorry for you, as well.

except that we have very different beliefs and a very different relationship with Jesus.

We “relate” to the fullness of the Body of Christ Jesus. You “relate”, apparently, to only Jesus’ (God’s) recorded words, and call those words “Jesus”.

Can you see how we might pity you in your ignorance?

Quote: The Church Fathers, the Bishops of the Sole Christian Church (Catholic), convened to review all the texts that were being used at the time because of the great variations of teaching they contained. There were literally hundreds of variations. Some so fantastic that they were discarded out of hand. … Others contained much of truth but there were objections in them.
As I said earlier I have not studied the history of the bible or the canonization. But I have read a little about it and on what criteria the books were chosen.

Please do so.

You assume that the church determined the canon but even the Catholic Church doesn’t claim that to be true (See Vatican I and II).

You’ll have to explain how the Church doesn’t cliam that it determined the canon of the Bible.

The church merely discovered what God Himself created.

Your use of the word “discovered” intrigues me. What did the Church DO in this discovery? How is this “discovery” different from “determining divine inspiration”, and eliminating all “writings” lacking that determination?

Quote: If we accept the Bible is the word of God then the Holy Spirit must have inspired those who assembled it, copied it, translated it, protected it and interpreted it. And that is the catholic Church. If the Church was not “Devinely Inspired” when it assembled, copied, translated, and protected the Bible then the Bible has no authority and never has.
James God is the author of the Bible, not the catholic church.

That is a nice bald statement. It rather depends on your meaning of “author”, and whether the Body of Christ, the CHURCH (Catholic), is that “author”.

You seem to put the catholic church above the very God you worship

It SEEMS that way to you because you don’t know what “The Church” means. God is WITHIN the Church, not “above” it,…

…if you see God ABOVE your church, as you MUST because He MUST be “overarching” all the various denominations (churches) of protestantism, then you CAN’T say the Church was anything but a recepticle of a “God dump” (the Bible) which magically fell out of the sky one day.

, and I must admit I find that scary.

It SHOULD be scary to you, because the truth of the matter completely changes all your simplistic definitions and leave you further outside the Church than you thought you were.

All the glory and honor should go to the LORD, not to the men who are supposed to serve Him.

All glory and honor DOES go to the lord, silly, and the non-God parts of the Church do their tasks to GIVE glory and honor to Him.

I worship the LORD in spirit and in truth. I don’t worship the words or traditions of men. I choose Jesus.

To me, you worship letters written on some media that is humanly readable.

Your limited perception of reality should lead you to the fullness of truth. Whether it does is dependent on your capacity for study and rational thought.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Delraek]

Maybe I should’ve been more clear about what I have a problem with since I was awfully vague:

Purgatory
catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp
Idolatry
catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp
The papacy & peter being the first pope
catholic.com/library/Peter_and_the_Papacy.asp
Praying for the dead
see purgatory
Praying to saints and angels
catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
The churches teachings on last judgment
catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp
The 7 sacraments
catholic.com/library/sacraments.asp
Position on contraception
catholic.com/library/Contraception_and_Sterilization.asp
Position on whether you can lose your salvation
catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp
Lent
catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0104fea1.asp
Calling priests father
catholic.com/library/Call_No_Man_Father.asp
Mary supposedly being sinless
catholic.com/library/Mary_Full_of_Grace.asp
The assumption of mary
catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp
Transubstantiation
catholic.com/library/Christ_in_the_Eucharist.asp
Celibacy for priests when peter was married
catholic.com/library/celibacy_and_the_priesthood.asp
Being “born again”
catholic.com/library/Born_Again_in_Baptism.asp
Only catholics will be saved
catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp

I won’t get into such things as the 44-68 million murdered as a result of the papacy during the middle ages and other atrocities since it has nothing to do with current catholics or catholicism.
*44-68 million?? You’ll have to cite your source on this one! *

 

[Delraek]

Hi

I’m not sure exactly when I left the church, to be honest. I stopped considering myself a Catholic when I was in my early 20s. I remember when I was around 22-24 I went to a Catholic retreat, and I had a lot of questions and felt a lot of opposition to what the Catholic church taught. (Back then, I was an extremely liberal person, didn’t believe in the death penalty, was pro-choice, etc.)

We were able to ask the priest questions by writing them down on paper, so I wrote a bunch of my questions out on paper (I don’t remember what I asked, but I had lots of aggravating questions on what I thought were hypocracies). He kept drawing questions out of the box, unfortunately most of them were mine. I think by the 3rd question he recognized my writing … … and he said, “If you have this many questions about Catholicism, maybe you shouldn’t be a Catholic.” So I took his advice, and that was when I officially severed ties with the Catholic church.

Honestly that was not the “bad experience” I had, and I never really had a bad experience except that I really hated church, I was forced to go my whole life, as well as forced to go to catechism, and most of the time, it was so boring and I just loathed it and resented being there.

Long story short, I was born again on August 11, 2004. At the time this happened, I wasn’t sure if I was going to go back to Catholic church or try my born again brother’s church (Calvary Chapel) but I knew I was going to do whatever it took to follow Jesus. I spoke to my devout Catholic brother (different brother) about the experience and he urged me to go where my holy spirit led me, so I decided to try out Calvary Chapel. I prayed to the holy spirit to lead me where I was supposed to go. As soon as I walked in to Calvary Chapel I knew I was home The feeling of the holy spirit was intense, and unmistakeable.
Edited to add, forgot to mention, that my devout Catholic brother is now a born again Christian as well, another of my brothers became born again, as well as my mom and 2 of my nieces.

“Feelings” like warm fuzzies or whatever do NOT equate with the Holy Spirit! If that were true, the Mormon faith would be the way to go - “burning in the bosom” theology. Feelings and sensations come and go. The Holy Spirit works in various ways and sometimes you don’t know He’s working thru you until after the fact when you see the fruits. Intellect and reason should determine our faith, not feelings. I go to church to worship God, not to “feel good” because it’s not about me! And just knowing the miracle God is performing during the consecration is more than enough for me - great music and sermons, warm fuzzies are just icing!

 

[qui_est_ce]

Delraek:
Good job! If you take the time to read through it all with open eyes of the heart and with the help of the Holy Spirit, you will find much wisdom and truth. Thank you Delraek for providing these links.