Former Catholics...

[josie_L]

Is 61
10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD,
My soul shall be joyful in my God;
For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation,
He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,
As a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments,
And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.
11 For as the earth brings forth its bud,

And that robe of righteousness is meant to infuse you with righteousness:

"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgement and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without merc on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?" Heb 10:26-30

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“His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption of the world caused by evil desires.”

“For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

“Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour.” 2 Peter 1:3-11

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"We know we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him, but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.”

“Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.” 1John 2

 

[DD2007]

But what if I don’t repent and I continue sinning can’t I lose my gift?

If that’s the case you never had a gift. You are still dead in your sins.

Ephesians 2:1-10 ESV
2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[Monica4316]

He that started a good work in you will finish it.

salvation isn’t something that passively happens to us. We need to cooperate with grace and not reject it.

what about Mark 4, parable of the sower:

Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. 17But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 18Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; 19but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful.

the work was started in these souls and they received the Gospel, but it was never finished.

Hi Monica!

Nice to see you here sister.:hug3:

Hi! didn’t know you posted here too hope all is going well with you.

It is applied to us by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit who brings us to faith and sees us through to the end.

unless we ourselves leave

You can do whatever you want. If you are saved you will want to glorify God and you will hate sin and if you do sin you will want to repent.

would you say that people who had real faith in God but then fell away, were they never ‘saved’ in the first place? but I know some people like this, and they really believed they were…so how can we be sure?

since we still sin as Christians, I do think it’s possible for someone to get so deep into sin that they’d stop being repentant, and later on lose their faith. I’ve seen this happen…

God bless

 

[josie_L]

If that’s the case you never had a gift. You are still dead in your sins.

Ephesians 2:1-10 ESV
2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Yet the person would insist that Jesus is his Lord and Saviour, would you kick such a person out of your congregation, would you call him unsaved? And another thing aren’t I right in stating that we are not just imputed (covered) with Christ’s righteousness but infused with it (grace) so that we may become holy (sanctification)? If that is the case then we are not saying dissimilar things except that I believe you can lose it through sin (as per scripture) and you think he never had it because he continues to sin. Are all Calvinist christians saved? And if they are how do you know this?

 

[rev_kevin]

salvation isn’t something that passively happens to us. We need to cooperate with grace and not reject it.

what about Mark 4, parable of the sower:

the work was started in these souls and they received the Gospel, but it was never finished.

Hi! didn’t know you posted here too hope all is going well with you.

unless we ourselves leave

would you say that people who had real faith in God but then fell away, were they never ‘saved’ in the first place? but I know some people like this, and they really believed they were…so how can we be sure?

since we still sin as Christians, I do think it’s possible for someone to get so deep into sin that they’d stop being repentant, and later on lose their faith. I’ve seen this happen…

God bless

\

Some believers don’t understand eternal security. They think they can loose their salvation. After having been out of fellowship, perhaps for years, and then desire to return to the Lord, think they must bellieve in Christ again. They try to reaffirm their faith, rededicated or repent. You cannot redo anything as far as your salvation is concerned. Salvation was accomplished in toto the first time you believe. for you to redo salvation is an insult to the Lord and displays a pitfiul ignorance of the Word. You are rejecting the principle of eternal security and implying that God did not do a good job the first time. Gods provides the means to return to fellowship the moment you believed in the Lord Jesus Christ. This is the grace of God which operated on your behalf at salvation and continues to operate in the matter of fellowship and the Christian life. You do not return to fellwoship by burning candles, rededicating, taking a vow, repenting, felling sorry for sin or any kind of emotional flagellation. You are restored by grace. And when you are restored, you are back in fellofship with the Lord.

 

[josie_L]

\

Some believers don’t understand eternal security. They think they can loose their salvation. After having been out of fellowship, perhaps for years, and then desire to return to the Lord, think they must bellieve in Christ again. They try to reaffirm their faith, rededicated or repent. You cannot redo anything as far as your salvation is concerned. Salvation was accomplished in toto the first time you believe. for you to redo salvation is an insult to the Lord and displays a pitfiul ignorance of the Word. You are rejecting the principle of eternal security and implying that God did not do a good job the first time. Gods provides the means to return to fellowship the moment you believed in the Lord Jesus Christ. This is the grace of God which operated on your behalf at salvation and continues to operate in the matter of fellowship and the Christian life. You do not return to fellwoship by burning candles, rededicating, taking a vow, repenting, felling sorry for sin or any kind of emotional flagellation. You are restored by grace. And when you are restored, you are back in fellofship with the Lord.

No one is implying that God’s work wasn’t completed (it is finished) we are stating that people can lose that precious gift that was delivered to them by God through unbelief and/or sin. This is a matter of free will. There is no such thing as eternal security unless you make a diligent effort to cooperate and commit yourself everyday to your Lord and Saviour (perseverance).

 

[Monica4316]

Yet the person would insist that Jesus is his Lord and Saviour, would you kick such a person out of your congregation, would you call him unsaved? And another thing aren’t I right in stating that we are not just imputed (covered) with Christ’s righteousness but infused with it (grace) so that we may become holy (sanctification)? If that is the case then we are not saying dissimilar things except that I believe you can lose it through sin (as per scripture) and you think he never had it because he continues to sin. Are all Calvinist christians saved? And if they are how do you know this?

I think Protestants generally believe in imputed righteousness, while Catholics believe in infused righteousness so …in Protestantism, God calls us righteous though we are not. In Catholicism, we become righteous, through grace…we get transformed, so we can live in Heaven and not sin.

\

Some believers don’t understand eternal security. They think they can loose their salvation. After having been out of fellowship, perhaps for years, and then desire to return to the Lord, think they must bellieve in Christ again. They try to reaffirm their faith, rededicated or repent. You cannot redo anything as far as your salvation is concerned. Salvation was accomplished in toto the first time you believe. for you to redo salvation is an insult to the Lord and displays a pitfiul ignorance of the Word. You are rejecting the principle of eternal security and implying that God did not do a good job the first time. Gods provides the means to return to fellowship the moment you believed in the Lord Jesus Christ. This is the grace of God which operated on your behalf at salvation and continues to operate in the matter of fellowship and the Christian life. You do not return to fellwoship by burning candles, rededicating, taking a vow, repenting, felling sorry for sin or any kind of emotional flagellation. You are restored by grace. And when you are restored, you are back in fellofship with the Lord.

if salvation is something that happens right when we ‘accept Christ’ and can never be taken away, how come some people lose faith? even if they come back…how could they have lost it even for a short time, if OSAS is true? why didnt God protect them?

the answer is that there’s free will, and we can always walk away from God. We need to persevere. Salvation is not a once and for all thing here on earth.

salvation isn’t just saying a prayer… it’s not just past tense. The Bible actually talks about it in present and future tense too. It also says, who endures to the end shall be saved.

In addition, the early Church had Confession, penances, etc. We can see this as early as 150 AD… St Justin Martyr, who might have even known the Apostles, describes the early Church use of Sacraments. It’s just like what the Catholic Church does today. Christians never believed in the type of salvation you describe until a couple hundred years ago.

what happens is…we get baptized, and through baptism, our original sin is taken away and any personal sin up to that point, if we’re adults. We’re in grace. But as Christians, we keep on sinning… each time we willingly choose a sin over God, we are walking away from Him. We get reconciled by asking for forgiveness. What matters for salvation is staying in grace, meaning: staying repentant, asking for forgiveness after each mortal sin. If we die unrepentant, it woudn’t matter if we used to believe in Jesus when we were younger and asked Him to be our Savior…because later on, we rejected His forgiveness for a particular sin. It’s that particular sin that would put us in hell. So we need to be repentant and always ask for God’s mercy.

thinking that we have God’s mercy no matter what we do, is called presumption. We should not presume, but hope, and be always like the tax collector who said “Lord have mercy on me a sinner.” Asking for God’s mercy is not an insult to Him, when we ask for it after we have sinned.

God bless

 

[Monica4316]

No one is implying that God’s work wasn’t completed (it is finished) we are stating that people can lose that precious gift that was delivered to them by God through unbelief and/or sin. This is a matter of free will. There is no such thing as eternal security unless you make a diligent effort to cooperate and commit yourself everyday to your Lord and Saviour (perseverance).

 

[DD2007]

Hi! didn’t know you posted here too hope all is going well with you.

Thanks. All is well. I hope all is well with you as well.

unless we ourselves leave

God will ensure an elect person persevers.

would you say that people who had real faith in God but then fell away, were they never ‘saved’ in the first place? but I know some people like this, and they really believed they were…so how can we be sure?

If you trust Christ, love God and hate sin then you can be sure.

since we still sin as Christians, I do think it’s possible for someone to get so deep into sin that they’d stop being repentant, and later on lose their faith. I’ve seen this happen…

That means they never were really saved but were christian in name only. I’ve heard it called buying fire insurance. They wanted desperately to sin the entire time and were never really interested in glorifying God, they were in it for themselves only.

 

[Monica4316]

Thanks. All is well. I hope all is well with you as well.

good to hear! I’m doing pretty well too…just trying to enjoy the summer while it lasts

God will ensure an elect person persevers.

who are the elect?

If you trust Christ, love God and hate sin then you can be sure.

but we should be careful to not lose this and to keep on loving Him.

That means they never were really saved but were christian in name only. I’ve heard it called buying fire insurance. They wanted desperately to sin the entire time and were never really interested in glorifying God, they were in it for themselves only.

but how can we know that? and some people lose faith because they get confused about doctrine or read the wrong type of books and believe them or because they’ve perhaps been hurt by other Christians… some just get realy tired and don’t know how to persevere…

God bless

 

[rev_kevin]

I think Protestants generally believe in imputed righteousness, while Catholics believe in infused righteousness so …in Protestantism, God calls us righteous though we are not. In Catholicism, we become righteous, through grace…we get transformed, so we can live in Heaven and not sin.

if salvation is something that happens right when we ‘accept Christ’ and can never be taken away, how come some people lose faith? even if they come back…how could they have lost it even for a short time, if OSAS is true? why didnt God protect them?

the answer is that there’s free will, and we can always walk away from God. We need to persevere. Salvation is not a once and for all thing here on earth.
Not talking about earth talking about God. Salvation is from God and he will never take that away but we as humans make mistakes and sometimes fall away but God through his grace and mercy will take you back into fellowship. God didn’t protect them because he is not a dictater, he give us free will like you said. Have you ever lost faith in a friend, co worker and they do something to regain your faith in them again? Kinda the same thing some christian due to Satan, remember he is powerful and sneeky, so it is very possable one can loose faith then regain it back.

salvation isn’t just saying a prayer… it’s not just past tense. The Bible actually talks about it in present and future tense too. It also says, who endures to the end shall be saved.

In addition, the early Church had Confession, penances, etc. We can see this as early as 150 AD… St Justin Martyr, who might have even known the Apostles, describes the early Church use of Sacraments. It’s just like what the Catholic Church does today. Christians never believed in the type of salvation you describe until a couple hundred years ago.

what happens is…we get baptized, and through baptism, our original sin is taken away and any personal sin up to that point, if we’re adults. We’re in grace. But as Christians, we keep on sinning… each time we willingly choose a sin over God, we are walking away from Him. We get reconciled by asking for forgiveness. What matters for salvation is staying in grace, meaning: staying repentant, asking for forgiveness after each mortal sin. If we die unrepentant, it woudn’t matter if we used to believe in Jesus when we were younger and asked Him to be our Savior…because later on, we rejected His forgiveness for a particular sin. It’s that particular sin that would put us in hell. So we need to be repentant and always ask for God’s mercy.
No matter what you do or say will not bring you back in fellowship with God if God did not give his grace. Only through his grace can we get back in fellowship. Kinda like a friend who fell out of fellowship with you, no matter what he does or says he will never get back into fellowship with you unless you showed him grace,only then will he be back in fellowship with you.

thinking that we have God’s mercy no matter what we do, is called presumption. We should not presume, but hope, and be always like the tax collector who said “Lord have mercy on me a sinner.” Asking for God’s mercy is not an insult to Him, when we ask for it after we have sinned.
Why ask for mercy when its always there, remember God is a merciful God at all times so why ask for something that is always there you need to repent and then mercy follows through his grace. Kinda like you asking mercy from someone who is doing you harm, the reason you ask is because they didn’t have mercy in the first place, but God always does have mercy “I am a merciful God.”
God bless

 

[Monica4316]

No matter what you do or say will not bring you back in fellowship with God if God did not give his grace. Only through his grace can we get back in fellowship.

I never said it happens without grace

 

[rev_kevin]

No one is implying that God’s work wasn’t completed (it is finished) we are stating that people can lose that precious gift that was delivered to them by God through unbelief and/or sin. This is a matter of free will. There is no such thing as eternal security unless you make a diligent effort to cooperate and commit yourself everyday to your Lord and Saviour (perseverance).

Ok then none of us have salvation, we all sin everyday no matter how big or how small. So everyday we loose salvation. Do you repent for your sins right away or do you wait till your nightly prayers. If you wait and you die then you have no salvation because of your sin, right? John 14:1-3 See Jesus’ words here show that the way to eternal life,though seen, is secure, as secure as your trust in Jesus. He has already prepared the way to eternal life. See there are a few verses in Scripture that describe eternal life but these few verses are rich with the promise, “I am going to perpare a place for you.” and “I will come and get you.”

 

[DD2007]

who are the elect?

Those who have genuine faith in Christ.

but how can we know that? and some people lose faith because they get confused about doctrine or read the wrong type of books and believe them or because they’ve perhaps been hurt by other Christians… some just get realy tired and don’t know how to persevere…

You can know you are saved if you trust Christ for your salvaiton love God and hate sin. God will bring the work to completion that he began in you.

If you love sin or have no faith you aren’t saved.

 

[Monica4316]

Ok then none of us have salvation, we all sin everyday no matter how big or how small. So everyday we loose salvation. Do you repent for your sins right away or do you wait till your nightly prayers. If you wait and you die then you have no salvation because of your sin, right? John 14:1-3 See Jesus’ words here show that the way to eternal life,though seen, is secure, as secure as your trust in Jesus. He has already prepared the way to eternal life. See there are a few verses in Scripture that describe eternal life but these few verses are rich with the promise, “I am going to perpare a place for you.” and “I will come and get you.”

God sees if in our heart we’re repentant or not. If we die before Confession, we can still go to Heaven if we meant to go to Confession as soon as we can; in other words, if we were repentant and asked for mercy. Also, not every sin is a mortal sin… if we simply make a mistake, without meaning to, that doesn’t cut us off from grace, it however does weaken grace in our souls. Mortal sin cuts us off from grace, but Confession is the way back.

to answer your question, I repent right away and say an act of contrition. If it’s a mortal sin, I also go to Confession for it.

God bless.

 

[Monica4316]

Those who have genuine faith in Christ.

You can know you are saved if you trust Christ for your salvaiton love God and hate sin. God will bring the work to completion that he began in you.

If you love sin or have no faith you aren’t saved.

brother I guess what I’m wondering is, - can we really say that the people who lost their faith never had genuine faith to begin with? I know someone who lost her faith…she really did try to love God, she even went on mission trips to share the Gospel.

btw, the Catholic Church teaches that we can know we’re in a state of grace if we’re repentant for sin, - if we love God, hate sin, etc… if we’ve confessed it and let God forgive us. But the thing is, we don’t know about the future… so we should always keep on repenting and try to persevere

 

[DD2007]

brother I guess what I’m wondering is, - can we really say that the people who lost their faith never had genuine faith to begin with?

Ephesians 1:3-5 ESV
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

God predestined his elect before the foundation of the world. They as predestined adopted sons of God will certainly persevere because he has predestined them to be HOLY an BLAMELESS before him…that only happens in heaven my friend.

But the thing is, we don’t know about the future… so we should always keep on repenting and try to persevere

We trust in God that he will give us future grace to remain close to him. We trust God that he predestined us to be his children and stand holy and blameless before him.

Trusting in Jesus’ work instead of our own is the key.

 

[josie_L]

Ok then none of us have salvation, we all sin everyday no matter how big or how small. So everyday we loose salvation. Do you repent for your sins right away or do you wait till your nightly prayers. If you wait and you die then you have no salvation because of your sin, right? John 14:1-3 See Jesus’ words here show that the way to eternal life,though seen, is secure, as secure as your trust in Jesus. He has already prepared the way to eternal life. See there are a few verses in Scripture that describe eternal life but these few verses are rich with the promise, “I am going to perpare a place for you.” and “I will come and get you.”

Well I do believe in purgatory which leads to purification of any residual sins upon death (as God is infinitely merciful) which leads to Heaven.

“For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.” 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

 

[Monica4316]

Ephesians 1:3-5 ESV
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

God predestined his elect before the foundation of the world. They as predestined adopted sons of God will certainly persevere because he has predestined them to be HOLY an BLAMELESS before him…that only happens in heaven my friend.

what the Church teaches, is that predestination means that God is outside of time, so He saw who will go to Heaven.

but it also says that God wants no one to perish… and for all to come to repentance.

We trust in God that he will give us future grace to remain close to him. We trust God that he predestined us to be his children and stand holy and blameless before him.

Trusting in Jesus’ work instead of our own is the key.

sure, trust is good I agree with that.

 

[DD2007]

what the Church teaches, is that predestination means that God is outside of time, so He saw who will go to Heaven.

but it also says that God wants no one to perish… and for all to come to repentance.

sure, trust is good I agree with that.

Good.

Here is what the bible says about all people and election.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 ESV
3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

God predestined his elect to be conformed to the image of his son. The offer of salvation is open to all to come to the knowledge of the truth. However the elect will certainly come to faith and persevere because of the irresistible grace given to them on account of God’s eternal election and purpose because they are forknown and chosen.

Romans 8:29-33 ESV
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.