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notredame_999
Guest
For latin catholics who either officially switched rites or frequent eastern rite catholic churches, why did you make the switch? How is your spirituality increased in a Ruthenian/melkite/maronite/etc. liturgy?
Former latin catholics: why do you attend eastern liturgies?
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German_Melkite
Guest
Can only speak for self . . . . . . .
I desire/need to worship God. I want to show respect/admiration/adoration of the Creator of All the Universe (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). The Eastern-style of worship seems focused on those attributes (worship/respect/admiration/adoration) of the triune Maker of All.
For me – at least – the current Western services are more focused on a shared relationship with Jesus our friend. The Roman services I have attended seem directed toward loving God (rather heavily weighted towards the Son specifically) and towards honoring the concept of “loving thy neighbor as thy self” and seeing God in our fellow men and women.
Both of these are an expression of love, but one is more intimate, personally shared and based on a type of equality, while the other is more reverential and recognizing of the majesty and difference in status between the two parties. I have heard it said that we need to have a horizontal and vertical relationship with God. Horizontally we share some plane with the divine and vertically we recognize the extreme difference between our status and role.
As a Catholic I can see the importance of both aspects. As a person, the first approach is closer to my heart and needs.
I desire/need to worship God. I want to show respect/admiration/adoration of the Creator of All the Universe (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). The Eastern-style of worship seems focused on those attributes (worship/respect/admiration/adoration) of the triune Maker of All.
For me – at least – the current Western services are more focused on a shared relationship with Jesus our friend. The Roman services I have attended seem directed toward loving God (rather heavily weighted towards the Son specifically) and towards honoring the concept of “loving thy neighbor as thy self” and seeing God in our fellow men and women.
Both of these are an expression of love, but one is more intimate, personally shared and based on a type of equality, while the other is more reverential and recognizing of the majesty and difference in status between the two parties. I have heard it said that we need to have a horizontal and vertical relationship with God. Horizontally we share some plane with the divine and vertically we recognize the extreme difference between our status and role.
As a Catholic I can see the importance of both aspects. As a person, the first approach is closer to my heart and needs.
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Pregustator
Guest
I am a Latin Rite Catholic and although I did not “switch”, I love to attend Eastern liturgies when I have an opportunity to do so. There are three different Ukranian Catholic Churches in my diocese at which the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is celebrated. I love the difference, for one thing. We’re talking about another approach, another mentality, another conceptualization–deeply rooted in history, deeply rooted in the cultures of the East–about how to project the celebration of the Body and Blood of the Lord.
The music, alone, is reason enough for anyone to attend a Byzantine liturgy. As mezmerizing as Gregorian chant is, Byzantine polyphonic chant is astonishing in its splendor. Both lift one’s mind and spirit up to Heaven, so to speak, but in two different ways. If Gregorian chant is a tranquil stone colonnade in a Romanesque abbey, then Byzantine polyphony is a gilded ceiling covered in icons.
The history, beauty, the diversity, the splendour, the difference, the solemnity, the richness…these are all reasons I enjoy attending the various liturgies of different traditions within the Church. The Church has a rich treasury of liturgical traditions and I think it is important for Catholics, at least from time-to-time, to experience some of those other traditions; for Eastern Catholics to attend the occasional Latin Rite Mass (under any of its various forms) and for Western Catholics to experience the worship of the East.
The music, alone, is reason enough for anyone to attend a Byzantine liturgy. As mezmerizing as Gregorian chant is, Byzantine polyphonic chant is astonishing in its splendor. Both lift one’s mind and spirit up to Heaven, so to speak, but in two different ways. If Gregorian chant is a tranquil stone colonnade in a Romanesque abbey, then Byzantine polyphony is a gilded ceiling covered in icons.
The history, beauty, the diversity, the splendour, the difference, the solemnity, the richness…these are all reasons I enjoy attending the various liturgies of different traditions within the Church. The Church has a rich treasury of liturgical traditions and I think it is important for Catholics, at least from time-to-time, to experience some of those other traditions; for Eastern Catholics to attend the occasional Latin Rite Mass (under any of its various forms) and for Western Catholics to experience the worship of the East.
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Anselm33
Guest
:thumbsup:well said.
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Shiranui117
Guest
German Melkite gave some excellent reasons why us Latin Catholics are drawn to the East.
I’m new to Eastern Catholicism, but I’ll give my greenhorn viewpoint. I’m frequenting my Ruthenian parish because the Liturgy isn’t tedious; everyone sings, no one gives weak "Amen"s like what happens at my much closer RC parish, and everyone is actually focused on the worship instead of flipping through the hymnals out of boredom. Everything about the Liturgy draws me in. The delegates from Kievan Rus’ walking into a Byzantine Divine Liturgy and saying that “we didn’t know whether we were in Heaven or on Earth” (someone PLEASE correct me if I’m wrong there) wasn’t sarcasm or a snide remark! That was what really helped a lot in converting Kievan Rus’, just the Liturgy itself. That should speak volumes.
It is so much more reverent than a Novus Ordo Mass (for me, anyways) and the entire time I’m focused on Christ, Scripture and Christ in the Eucharist. No one is idly thumbing through the hymnal or having quiet conversations with the person nearby in the pews at my Ruthenian parish; everyone’s attention is front and center!
Byzantine theology is quite a fresh take on Christianity; as German Melkite said, it’s far more mystical and mysterious compared to the Latin Rite. There is less emphasis on defining doctrines, and more on pondering a Holy Mystery. There are different feasts from the Latin Church, and more focus on the Saints and their feasts. It’s a very different Christian culture that I would highly recommend experiencing if anyone hasn’t already.
I’m new to Eastern Catholicism, but I’ll give my greenhorn viewpoint. I’m frequenting my Ruthenian parish because the Liturgy isn’t tedious; everyone sings, no one gives weak "Amen"s like what happens at my much closer RC parish, and everyone is actually focused on the worship instead of flipping through the hymnals out of boredom. Everything about the Liturgy draws me in. The delegates from Kievan Rus’ walking into a Byzantine Divine Liturgy and saying that “we didn’t know whether we were in Heaven or on Earth” (someone PLEASE correct me if I’m wrong there) wasn’t sarcasm or a snide remark! That was what really helped a lot in converting Kievan Rus’, just the Liturgy itself. That should speak volumes.
It is so much more reverent than a Novus Ordo Mass (for me, anyways) and the entire time I’m focused on Christ, Scripture and Christ in the Eucharist. No one is idly thumbing through the hymnal or having quiet conversations with the person nearby in the pews at my Ruthenian parish; everyone’s attention is front and center!
Byzantine theology is quite a fresh take on Christianity; as German Melkite said, it’s far more mystical and mysterious compared to the Latin Rite. There is less emphasis on defining doctrines, and more on pondering a Holy Mystery. There are different feasts from the Latin Church, and more focus on the Saints and their feasts. It’s a very different Christian culture that I would highly recommend experiencing if anyone hasn’t already.
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Aramis
Guest
- the symbolism is very “in your face” in the Byzantine praxis; it’s subtle and hidden in much of the Roman praxis.
- The roman symbolism, even explained, made little sense to me my whole life.
- I would have gone Orthodox except for timelining the passion and post passion events in the Gospels on the advice of a friend, a Dominican friar, which showed me the bit in Jn21 is an additional duty, not a readmission.
- I love to sing.
- the theological focus is much different
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Phillip_Rolfes
Guest
My main reason for becoming an Eastern (Byzantine) Catholic is simply that I felt at home. I felt at home with the Liturgies, the spirituality, the theology, the emphasis, etc. Seriously, the first time I attended a Divine Liturgy I felt as if I’d been going all my life. That feeling of being at home is just something I never had as a Latin Catholic, despite the fact that I was an altar boy growing up and served Mass nearly every day (since I was homeschooled).
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Nine_Two
Guest
Just curious for some clarification, do you mean when Jesus questions Peter’s love? Or an I missing something else? I’m just having difficulty seeing that verse in terms of an additional duty.
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Aramis
Guest
Not the verse, the whole context of the chapter. The command, “Feed My Sheep” thrice over is the commission. It’s not used for the others.
I’ve had far too many OCA and OB RO claim it was Peter being readmitted to the 12 after the denials… and it fails on a timeline check. Peter was present at too much else prior.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Today is the first day I would say that I will frequent Divine Liturgy at our UGCC Cathedral.
I attended the early English DL. I was welcomed warmly. I’ve been reading up on the Byzantine Rite for quite some time and finally got to go today. I spoke to my wife about it and she agreed we’d go once a month. We still have commitments to our own Latin Rite parish. Also its too soon to say we will transfer canonically. But today I felt that I had a place there. Today I felt that God wanted me to be there.
I attended the early English DL. I was welcomed warmly. I’ve been reading up on the Byzantine Rite for quite some time and finally got to go today. I spoke to my wife about it and she agreed we’d go once a month. We still have commitments to our own Latin Rite parish. Also its too soon to say we will transfer canonically. But today I felt that I had a place there. Today I felt that God wanted me to be there.
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Cristiano
Guest
I did not switch. I am still a member of the Latin rite; however I frequently attend the Divine Liturgy at the Maronite Church and sometime the Byzantine Liturgy. My reason is quite simple, I discovered that the Eastern Liturgies address a different part of my spirituality that needs to grow. Also the Theological approach of the Eastern Churches helps me to grow in a more complete manner. As JPII said the Latin Church and the Eastern Churches are the two lungs of Catholicism, and my point is why not breathing with both? The complement each other in such a wonderful manner while they are so beautifully sufficient by themselves.
What I really like is to recite at the end of the Mass the paryer to St. Michael and the Syro-Maronite Farewell to the Altar:
Remain in peace, O Altar of God. May the offering that I have taken from you be for the remission of my debts and the pardon of my sins and may it obtain for me that I may stand before the tribunal of Christ without condemnation and without confusion. I do not know if I will have the opportunity to return and offer another sacrifice upon you. Protect me, O Lord, and preserve your holy Church as the way to truth and salvation. Amen.
My optimal routine is the following: Sat 5:30pm Maronite Liturgy, Sun 7:30am Mass, Sun 10:00am I teach catechism, Sun 5:00pm Byzantine rite (twice in a month). Rest of the week daily mass when possible at my son’s school. I just wish that I could attend the adult catechism classes in the EC but the schedule is already quite full and I really love spending time with my wife and son doing apparently non important things.
What I really like is to recite at the end of the Mass the paryer to St. Michael and the Syro-Maronite Farewell to the Altar:
Remain in peace, O Altar of God. May the offering that I have taken from you be for the remission of my debts and the pardon of my sins and may it obtain for me that I may stand before the tribunal of Christ without condemnation and without confusion. I do not know if I will have the opportunity to return and offer another sacrifice upon you. Protect me, O Lord, and preserve your holy Church as the way to truth and salvation. Amen.
My optimal routine is the following: Sat 5:30pm Maronite Liturgy, Sun 7:30am Mass, Sun 10:00am I teach catechism, Sun 5:00pm Byzantine rite (twice in a month). Rest of the week daily mass when possible at my son’s school. I just wish that I could attend the adult catechism classes in the EC but the schedule is already quite full and I really love spending time with my wife and son doing apparently non important things.
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Little_Boy_Lost
Guest
I feel my entire being is encompassed in prayer when I attend Byzantine liturgies. The incense feels my smell, all the icons look upon you reminding you are in a mystical worship, the chant is beautiful, and the postures which are rendered further to God. Every part of you is involved in the worship in a way a Roman parish does not for me.
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dcointin
Guest
Perhaps this is slightly off topic, but as an Orthodox who attends Catholic liturgies with his girlfriend, I can give you my perspective.
The OF liturgies we’ve attended have for the most part been more contemporary than I expected. For example, this past Sunday we attended Mass at the church she grew up in, which is an old, urban, formerly German parish. The architecture is traditional and typical of the time, with an ornate traditional altar, stations of the cross, statuary, etc. It’s not the kind of parish that I would have expected to see anything unusual.
The hymns we sang were all from the 1960’s or later, with a focus on community, love, and social justice, accompanied by a piano. The litanies and other parts that were traditionally chanted were spoken by the priest, with the exception of “through him, in him with him…”. The children were dismissed from the mass early for education, and the priest asked the congregation to raise their hands toward them in blessing as he blessed their departure. The homily was based on a metaphor of playing cards with “Lady Faith”, whose card (faith) always trumps the ones we play. The prayers after the homily were written for that day and not taken from any traditional source. The eucharist was taken standing as there was no altar rail, and distributed by laymen who handed them the chalice. The entire mass was officiated at a table set in front of the traditional altar, facing the people at all times. No incense was used.
This may not seem like significant deviations from tradition, and my girlfriend assured me that this was usual among Catholic parishes, but I found it very contemporary, and frankly Protestant. It’s a struggle for me to attend services like this which have eliminated things that I’ve come to take for granted as an Orthodox, such as chanting, incense, facing the altar, following the fixed form if the liturgy in all parts, using traditional hymnody, etc. I left Protestantism for a reason, and a return to more traditional style of worship was an important factor. We’ve visited probably 5 or more OF parishes, all of which we chose because they appeared more traditional, and this was typical of most of them with exception to the cathedral. I imagine that attending an EF liturgy would satisfy my need for tradition, but the problem would be in understanding what’s happening since I don’t know much Latin. I can tell you if I were forced to worship in the typical Catholic parish, it would be a major stumbling block to conversion, and for this reason I would almost certainly look for a sui uris parish.
The OF liturgies we’ve attended have for the most part been more contemporary than I expected. For example, this past Sunday we attended Mass at the church she grew up in, which is an old, urban, formerly German parish. The architecture is traditional and typical of the time, with an ornate traditional altar, stations of the cross, statuary, etc. It’s not the kind of parish that I would have expected to see anything unusual.
The hymns we sang were all from the 1960’s or later, with a focus on community, love, and social justice, accompanied by a piano. The litanies and other parts that were traditionally chanted were spoken by the priest, with the exception of “through him, in him with him…”. The children were dismissed from the mass early for education, and the priest asked the congregation to raise their hands toward them in blessing as he blessed their departure. The homily was based on a metaphor of playing cards with “Lady Faith”, whose card (faith) always trumps the ones we play. The prayers after the homily were written for that day and not taken from any traditional source. The eucharist was taken standing as there was no altar rail, and distributed by laymen who handed them the chalice. The entire mass was officiated at a table set in front of the traditional altar, facing the people at all times. No incense was used.
This may not seem like significant deviations from tradition, and my girlfriend assured me that this was usual among Catholic parishes, but I found it very contemporary, and frankly Protestant. It’s a struggle for me to attend services like this which have eliminated things that I’ve come to take for granted as an Orthodox, such as chanting, incense, facing the altar, following the fixed form if the liturgy in all parts, using traditional hymnody, etc. I left Protestantism for a reason, and a return to more traditional style of worship was an important factor. We’ve visited probably 5 or more OF parishes, all of which we chose because they appeared more traditional, and this was typical of most of them with exception to the cathedral. I imagine that attending an EF liturgy would satisfy my need for tradition, but the problem would be in understanding what’s happening since I don’t know much Latin. I can tell you if I were forced to worship in the typical Catholic parish, it would be a major stumbling block to conversion, and for this reason I would almost certainly look for a sui uris parish.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Reason I fell in love with the DL over the EF. First is that the DL is offered in English while the EF is strictly Latin. Second is participation. Participation in the DL is the same or even greater than the OF (perhaps because or many more prayers). Although I have had priests who would sing/chant many parts of the Mass in the OF
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Little_Boy_Lost
Guest
I Can understand. Oddly enough, this is why I remained Anglican for a while. The venerable beauty of the old English liturgy and the beautiful prose of the prayers in English was outstanding. I shuddered at thinking of attending a Novus Ordo parish. I will go only if I am visiting family or friends. I really hate feeling annoyed and upset at the conclusion of mass and so many things they do in many parishes are just distractions. So when I found there were Byzantine Churches in communion with Rome, I was coming home. = D
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DL82
Guest
Lex orandi, Lex credendi - the law of prayer is the law of faith.
I am a Latin Rite Catholic (was almost received into the Melkite Church, but after talking it over with a Melkite Deacon, decided against it) but attend Byzantine Divine Liturgy when I have the opportunity (they are much more common here in the US than in the UK).
For me, the theological richness of the prayer life of the Eastern Rites is just beautiful - in the Eastern Divine Liturgy, theology and catechesis is so woven into the structure of the worship that you can’t help but be changed by it.
The fact that the laity sing the song of the liturgy more or less throughout, without this ever detracting from the distinctive roles of the Priest and Deacon, is also, in my opinion, preferable to either a silent laity in the Latin Extraordinary Form or a muddling of lay and priestly office in some badly celebrated Ordinary Form Masses.
The Byzantine Liturgy’s mingling of different elements in worship, ikons, incense, lay prayers, priestly prayers, theological teaching, song, symbol, to me just reflects the complex reality of life as well. Life with the Living God isn’t a legal court, it isn’t a stage for a play, it’s something rich, complex, beautiful, free, something that changes us.
That’s not to say that you don’t get all of this from the Roman Catholic Church too. I have had the privilege of attending two wonderful Ordinary Form parishes in the UK for the past 3 years where good teaching and reverent Masses were the norm, coupled with friendly communities. I don’t have anything against the Western Church, but if I had the choice of an English-language Divine Liturgy as my regular parish, that’s probably where I’d be.
As an aside, I took my fiancee to a Ruthenian Divine Liturgy this past Sunday, it was her first experience of the Byzantine Rites, and she also said that she’d prefer that over her Roman Catholic parish.
I am a Latin Rite Catholic (was almost received into the Melkite Church, but after talking it over with a Melkite Deacon, decided against it) but attend Byzantine Divine Liturgy when I have the opportunity (they are much more common here in the US than in the UK).
For me, the theological richness of the prayer life of the Eastern Rites is just beautiful - in the Eastern Divine Liturgy, theology and catechesis is so woven into the structure of the worship that you can’t help but be changed by it.
The fact that the laity sing the song of the liturgy more or less throughout, without this ever detracting from the distinctive roles of the Priest and Deacon, is also, in my opinion, preferable to either a silent laity in the Latin Extraordinary Form or a muddling of lay and priestly office in some badly celebrated Ordinary Form Masses.
The Byzantine Liturgy’s mingling of different elements in worship, ikons, incense, lay prayers, priestly prayers, theological teaching, song, symbol, to me just reflects the complex reality of life as well. Life with the Living God isn’t a legal court, it isn’t a stage for a play, it’s something rich, complex, beautiful, free, something that changes us.
That’s not to say that you don’t get all of this from the Roman Catholic Church too. I have had the privilege of attending two wonderful Ordinary Form parishes in the UK for the past 3 years where good teaching and reverent Masses were the norm, coupled with friendly communities. I don’t have anything against the Western Church, but if I had the choice of an English-language Divine Liturgy as my regular parish, that’s probably where I’d be.
As an aside, I took my fiancee to a Ruthenian Divine Liturgy this past Sunday, it was her first experience of the Byzantine Rites, and she also said that she’d prefer that over her Roman Catholic parish.
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Elene
Guest
Hi Little Boy Lost - I just noticed your location. Is there a Byzantine Catholic church in Davis?
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Little_Boy_Lost
Guest
Hi Elene. Unfortunately there is not. The closest parishes are in the Sacramento area. There are four of them. A Melkite, A Ruthenian and two Ukranian parishes.
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Elene
Guest
Ok, yes, these are the ones I knew about. I was wondering if there was another one I missed. We sure are fortunate to have so many nearby. I know some people have to drive many hours to attend an EC Divine Liturgy
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Little_Boy_Lost
Guest
There is a Chaldean mission in Folsom I believe and a Maronite community but as far as I know, they have mass once a month.Ok, yes, these are the ones I knew about. I was wondering if there was another one I missed. We sure are fortunate to have so many nearby. I know some people have to drive many hours to attend an EC Divine Liturgy
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