Former Lutherans, now Catholic?

[JonNC]

I agree.

I can tell you why more Lutherans don’t go that route, though:

• Orthodox parishes are few and far between in the upper midwest where most Lutherans are;
• A resulting lack of knowledge of Orthodoxy;
• Even those who know quite a bit about Orthodoxy are still perplexed. I won’t go into my story in detail, but I find Orthodoxy to be very interesting, to say the least. However, they speak a different language. I have read several books and have become friends with an Orthodox priest, and I still find many areas where they will use some of the same words we do, but they have different meanings. I think this comes from 1,000 years of separation. Easterns and Westerns just think differently.

I’m not going to convert to a church that claims that it is the One, True, Church, unless I am 100% sure that I know everything I can possibly know about it, and I 100% believe they are right. So, with the case of RC, I know quite a lot about it, and am capable of understanding and learning even more because Lutherans and Catholics, while having some different beliefs, still talk fundamentally the same language. We are descendants of Augustine, Anselm, etc. I just have some fundamental differences of opinion with Catholicism about a few subjects where I would have to have a complete change of heart.

As to Orthodoxy, as you say, I don’t think I really have those kinds of fundamental differences that I know of******. I might, but I don’t know due to a lack of understanding. It will take me a lot longer to even come to a point where I will think I can even grasp what they are saying about many things.

I very much agree with what you’ve said here. I’d just like to add something to what I highlighted in blue and get your and Ralph’s thoughts.
If one is Lutheran, and wishing to move to a Church in Apostolic Succession,without reconciliation between Rome and Orthodoxy, how can we know, 100%, which one is right?

Jon

 

[AmericanJosiah]

BTW I graduated* Summa Cum Laude *(4.0 GPA) with double Majors in History and Criminal Justice… looks like I win

I graduated from The University of California *Magna Cum Laude *with double majors in Physics and Math, at the age of 19. Do I at least get a cookie?

But I moved the other direction, from Catholic to Lutheran.

Advent blessings to all…

Pax

• Josiah

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[AmericanJosiah]

I very much agree with what you’ve said here. I’d just like to add something to what I highlighted in blue and get your and Ralph’s thoughts.
If one is Lutheran, and wishing to move to a Church in Apostolic Succession,without reconciliation between Rome and Orthodoxy, how can we know, 100%, which one is right?

Jon

Excellent point…

Lutherans tend to live in the West where the exposer to the EO and OO is slight…
Lutherans have our existance vis-a-vis Catholicism (as our Confessions so clearly reveal - if not our customs and traditions), so we think Rome, not Greece or Russia.

What LITTLE I know of Orthodoxy frankly impressive me a lot. I find the heart, the spirit, the attitude almost the exact opposite of Catholicism and much closer to Lutheranism. In fact, in some ways, I like the Orthodox approach. Lutheranism remains a bit too didactic (a factor of its solidly CC roots) for my tastes, occasionally. I had a too brief discussion with a Greek Orthodox priest and his wife (less than 30 minutes) one time during the time when I was increasingly uncomfortable in the Catholic Church and had just starting attending a Lutheran church (that one was ELCA). I was stunned by a LOT of what he said: we were amazingly close souls. With VERY similar impressions of Catholicism. When I was in college, I had a friend from Greece who was an English major - and very religious. I WISH we had talked more. She commented that IF I had gone to an Orthodox Church way back instead of a Catholic Church - I’d be heading toward the priesthood today. Maybe she was right… God lead me down a different path, I believe.

But much of my spirituality is soundly within the Theology of the Cross. I so strongly embrace accountability and community. It is powerful to ME that I found the right “home.” I’m increasingly glad God lead me as He did.

Pax

• Josiah

.

 

[JonNC]

Excellent point…

Lutherans tend to live in the West where the exposer to the EO and OO is slight…
Lutherans have our existance vis-a-vis Catholicism (as our Confessions so clearly reveal - if not our customs and traditions), so we think Rome, not Greece or Russia.

What LITTLE I know of Orthodoxy frankly impressive me a lot. ** I find the heart, the spirit, the attitude almost the exact opposite of Catholicism and much closer to Lutheranism**. In fact, in some ways, I like the Orthodox approach. Lutheranism remains a bit too didactic (a factor of its solidly CC roots) for my tastes, occasionally. I had a too brief discussion with a Greek Orthodox priest and his wife (less than 30 minutes) one time during the time when I was increasingly uncomfortable in the Catholic Church and had just starting attending a Lutheran church (that one was ELCA). ** I was stunned by a LOT of what he said: we were amazingly close souls.** With VERY similar impressions of Catholicism. When I was in college, I had a friend from Greece who was an English major - and very religious. I WISH we had talked more. She commented that IF I had gone to an Orthodox Church way back instead of a Catholic Church - I’d be heading toward the priesthood today. Maybe she was right… God lead me down a different path, I believe.

But much of my spirituality is soundly within the Theology of the Cross. I so strongly embrace accountability and community. It is powerful to ME that I found the right “home.” I’m increasingly glad God lead me as He did.

.

I reckon it may have to do with the fact that our differences with Rome have more to do with their teachings in the first half of the second millenium, than with the (undivided) first millenium, Catholic protestations of “no change in doctrine” notwithstanding.

Jon

 

[AmericanJosiah]

I reckon it may have to do with the fact that our differences with Rome have more to do with their teachings in the first half of the second millenium, than with the (undivided) first millenium, Catholic protestations of “no change in doctrine” notwithstanding.

Jon

I agree…

Theologically, I think we are closer. But what stunned ME wasn’t the teachings so much as what I call the “heart” of it. I find Orthodoxy filled with a spirit of humility and community which I found strikingly contrastive to Catholicism. As did the Orthodox priest (and especially his wife). I liked the embrace of mystery, the focus on worship, a strong sense of spirituality. And I think there really IS a sense of holding on to something in Orthodoxy as compared to the constantly evolving Catholicism - even though I would conclude Orthodoxy has simply stopped the clock at a point.

But yes - again to the extent that I am aware of such - I find myself much more in agreement with Orthodoxy than with Catholicism. And I don’t disagree with my Greek friend that MAYBE if my life took me there rather than to Catholicism (or maybe even there in least of Lutheranism) - I might be the only blonde, blue-eyed Greek Orthodox guy in church. But I’m glad God lead me where I beleive He did.

BTW, as a newbie here, I’ve already come to appreciate you and make a point to read your posts. Thank you!

Pax

• Josiah

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[Jennifer_G]

Former ELCA here. My conversion story is somewhere on here, but here’s a very short version.

3 reasons why I became Catholic. (this was in the mid 90s)

1 - The Real Presence in the Eucharist. Half of my extended family (actually, about 90% of them being on my dad’s side) were Catholic, so I would get to go a Catholic Church for baptisms, weddings, and funerals. While in my Lutheran church one church service, I was pondering what makes a Catholic church so different, and why it feels like something’s missing from my old church that wasn’t in the Catholic churches. I went through the list (prayers, music, sermons), and ultimately came to the conclusion that it must be the Real Presence. Do note that I hadn’t been to an actual Catholic Mass until September 2007.

2 - The Bible. So many passages seemed to rebuke “Faith Alone”, and “Bible Alone”. Some examples are when Jesus told Peter to “Feed my Lambs” and “Feed my Sheep”, which got me thinking, “Well, who feeds our lambs?”. I didn’t see any visible heirarchy, and didn’t even know Lutherans had a bishop until sometime in my late teens or early 20s. It seemed to me that the pastor could say anything he wanted to, and/or even start his own church denomination. Others were, “Not everyone who says ‘Lord! Lord’ will be saved” and about “Whatsoever you do unto these, you do unto me.”, as well as the verse about there being other things Jesus did that couldn’t fit in all of the books in the world or something.

3 - Mary. A neighbor of ours (who would later be my RCIA sponser) used to ask for material from the library since I worked there, and my mom would get stuff from the Library. One day, there was a video tape of apparitions of Mary in Yugoslavia, and it was sitting on the drysink. I looked at it and wondered, “Why don’t we [Lutherans] hear about these things, or have anyone from Heaven speak to us”. I asked my mom about it, and she said, “Oh, it’s just something our neighbor believes in” or something. Not satisfied with the answer, I did research on the Internet (which was just being made available publicly) and found out about Our Lady of Lourdes, Our Lady of Fatima, Our Lady of Mt. Carmel, the Rosary, Brown Scapular. That’s really where it took off.

Finding that my morals and views where much closer to the Catholic Church, I decided to become Catholic. Granted, 10 years ago, my parents weren’t happy with the decision and forbade me to do so. 10 years later, and after several failed attempts (they still forbade me to), I finally was able to become Catholic.

 

[Reuben_J]

Luther was not perfect, but aren’t you glad the popes no longer are able to burn people who dare to speak out against them? One of the clergy at the catholic church I attended with my friends when I was in high school went to jail for improper behavior around children. You want to talk about that or do you want to keep the discussion academic?

Catholics today are quite clear about the issues of burning people at stakes and pedophile priests. These are not catholic doctrines.

Why do you bring this up? I thought every Protestant denomination today would have something similar stacked up in their closets.

So where did Luther (or any of the other reformers) claim to be spokesman for Jesus like the popes do? Or claim to be the sole keeper of all faith and virtue like the popes do? Which one of them claimed to have the key to the pearly gates like the popes claim? And of course the RCC has done everything possible to protect the Jewish people throughout history, right? Kept them safe from those nasty protestants right?

The problem with Luther was not so much that he wanted reform from within the Church but that he divorced himself from St. Peter. When he did that, quite a lot of doctrines were lost too, and that’s wrong. One in his effort for reform should not reform the basic and fundamental. For example, one should not tinkle with the Bible.

I would expect more from you, one who has such impressive resume in History and research. BTW I am Einstine!

And maybe you think a little inquisition now and then is good for the soul, purify the one true church and all that?

How much do you know about this subject anyway? Can you elaborate more what happened during the so-called inquisition?

God bless you.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I graduated from The University of California *Magna Cum Laude *with double majors in Physics and Math, at the age of 19. Do I at least get a cookie?

But I moved the other direction, from Catholic to Lutheran.

Advent blessings to all…

Pax

• Josiah

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Well I don’t have a cookie but how about a piece of or a piece of or how about some ?

God bless you

 

[JonNC]

BTW, as a newbie here, I’ve already come to appreciate you and make a point to read your posts. Thank you!

Thanks, Josiah. That is nice of you to say.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Originally Posted by Roman_Catholic
BTW I graduated Summa Cum Laude (4.0 GPA) with double Majors in History and Criminal Justice… looks like I win

I graduated from The University of California *Magna Cum Laude *with double majors in Physics and Math, at the age of 19. Do I at least get a cookie?

I don’t know about a cookie, but I think you both deserve a cold beer. My treat.

Jon

 

[workingman]

Hey workingman,
I’d love to hear you expand on these two topics a little bit. if you are willing. Either here on in a PM.

Thanks in advance,
Jon

What the hay. I think we were going to discuss this once before and never got to it. The Eucharist; It is not the true presence that is a issue due to Lutherans normally hold to this view. It was for me what seemed to be a lack of reverence their of. I think the differences are quite obvious by look at just the basics on it between the LCMS and the CC. No adoration in the LCMS, no place to store “extra consecrated host” and improper disposal of the consecrated blood. I witnessed consecrated host tossed into a waist can and on several occasions people drunk off the left over communion wine after church instead of poring it into the ground. I know the earlier listed is not supposed to be policy of the LCMS but when brought to attention it was blatantly ignored. I know some of this sounds like a church specific problem but I witnessed this in a couple.

Now I want to be a little careful with the synod part but to put it politely I am not nor ever was a fan of Kishnic (sp?) The LCMS Synod president. He was not much of a “confessional” Lutheran from the word go. He seemed a bit on the loose end to me. There were better candidates at the time though names illude me at this time. The Ablaze program was a complete joke and those who are still with the LCMS know what I am talking about. In my opinion if it was not for people like Rev. Paul McCane the LCMS would be in a far off worse situation than what it is. IMO the Synod press would do away with the liturgy go full “church growth movement” then the next thing you know away with private confession, the Lords supper is only a symbol, and the things that identified them as Lutheran are gone. Not to get off base but look at the ELCA.

In my last Lutheran Church. They ordained a pastor out of Luther Sem. A questionable call to begin with. Though he did serve as Vicar under suppervision for a year to make sure he would fit and conform to LCMS doctrine. He did till he was ordained. After that we had masons as elders and that is a no no in the LCMS also. When brought to attention this was completely shrugged off. I know find a different LCMS congregation. Not so easy in podunk. Wait for it to sort out was not going to change. This was a first perm pastor in 14 years for this congregation. Then He was calling out people in the service and causing embarrassment during the Liturgy. Last I checked the Liturgy was not the place for that. Even if it was in jest. Yet nothing was happening to change it.

I also seem to think that the Lutheran Church where it is today is off from what Luther himself could of thought of. Considering his objective was not to start a new church but to fix errors. Not all was bad. The way the catechism was written by Luther was very simple. I do think the CCC is a little over complex (my opinion). The Lutheran Chruch especialy in the 60’s wanted to differentiate between them and the CC. If the CC did it they did not or did not want to. ( no I can not sight specific examples. Just what I remember from conversations with pastors).

I held to a Marian devotion even as a Lutheran along with intercessory prayer. This lead to problems though this is supposed to be adiaphora. I was labeled as a Marian Cultist. Did Luther himself not hold a similar devotion. At this point needless to say I did not feel welcomed or wanted. I realized my beliefs were far more Catholic than in line with todays Lutheran Church.

Just a few thoughts on things. Thanks for giving the Chance JonNC. I know not all reasons were nec great but I feel much more at home and at peace than before. If you want to discuss more I would not mind. Just let me know. Thanks and God Bless.

 

[IowaJay]

I very much agree with what you’ve said here. I’d just like to add something to what I highlighted in blue and get your and Ralph’s thoughts.
If one is Lutheran, and wishing to move to a Church in Apostolic Succession,without reconciliation between Rome and Orthodoxy, how can we know, 100%, which one is right?

Jon

That is the real question, isn’t it?

Extremely intelligent people have studied the issues, listened for guidance of the Spirit, and come to differing conclusions. How do I discern whether Pelikan’s conversion (LCMS to ELCA to Orthodox) is the correct one versus Neuhaus’ conversion (LCMS to ELCA to Catholicism)? Or Metropolitan Jonah’s or Metropolitan Kallistos’ conversions (Anglican to Orthodox) versus Newman’s or Chesterton’s (Anglican to Catholicism)?

I think Fr. Al Kimel (former Episcopal priest and now a Catholic priest), author of the now-defunct blog Pontifications, was being honest when he wrote the following:

"For the past two years I have struggled to discern whether to remain an Anglican (in some form or another) or to embrace either Orthodoxy or Catholicism. Both Orthodoxy and Catholicism make mutually exclusive claims to be the one and true Church of Jesus Christ. We are confronted by a stark either/or choice. An Anglican is tempted to retreat to a branch theory of the Church, and on that basis make a decision on which tradition appeals to him most; but both Orthodoxy and Catholicism reject all such branch theories. There is only one visible Church. To become either Orthodox or Catholic means accepting the claim of the respective communion to ecclesial exclusivity. How do we rightly judge between them?

---

I cannot see the Church from God’s perspective. I am faced with a choice. Good arguments can be presented for both Orthodoxy and Catholicism; none appear to be absolutely decisive and coercive. Moreoever, considerations that seem important to me are probably irrelevant to the large majority of people. “The Church is a house with a hundred gates,” wrote Chesterton; “and no two men enter at exactly the same angle.” Finally, I can only rely upon my reason, my intuitions, my feelings, my faith, under the grace and mercy of God. May God forgive me if I have chosen wrongly."

pontifications.wordpress.com/road-to-rome/

 

[ralphinal]

Had Luther been in an area with exposur to Orthodoxy, his name might be forgotten. He probably would have just gone that route. Not that I am saying that the Orthodox are correct, mind you.

Let me ask it this way: if you are sure that Lutheranism is not 100% correct, are you willing to say it is as correct as either Orthodoxy or Catholocism? Some of you have been throwing majors and GPAs around (ended up a Psych major with minors in Math, Chemistry, and History here, GPA around 3), so let us look at it this way.

Let’s say that all of Christianity represents a test score. Both Orthodoxy and Catholicism claim to have a 100%, but we can safely say that both have an A. Are you safe enough in your church to say that Lutheranism also has an A? Or, would you say that it is a B?

Basically, from this standpoint, either would be better, no matter which is totally correct

 

[StillWondering]

Dear wanner47,

I understand your good intentions. While I’m not a professional theologian and church history researcher, I’ve tried to drop hints that I have read and studied quite a bit on church history, dogma development and theology. Part of that learning, and I’m sure crazzeto if pressed would agree, is putting the historic writers in context, understanding what they say and what they are not saying. The gap between 95 AD and 345 AD is no little thing, do you disagree?

…
Take care,
Jon

I feel that the concept of a gap between 95 AD and 345 AD, or any other time period claimed by the Catholic Church, is incorrect. The Early Church Fathers is a title for those that live in a certain period and were the pastors of teachings–holding fast to the truth and bring it to the wider flock. Just like the Apostles were a title for those who came before them and where sent out to preach to all nations. There are people that came after the Early Church Fathers as well. There is no gap between 95 AD and 345 AD. Even Wikipedia has info on it and it is a casual information site: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Church_Fathers

I am sure if you really look, you’ll find lots of information that includes all of the last 2000 years. It is there. Are you sure you are looking at all the sides to find out which is telling the truth?

 

[StillWondering]

That is the real question, isn’t it?

…

I cannot see the Church from God’s perspective. I am faced with a choice. Good arguments can be presented for both Orthodoxy and Catholicism; none appear to be absolutely decisive and coercive. Moreoever, considerations that seem important to me are probably irrelevant to the large majority of people. “The Church is a house with a hundred gates,” wrote Chesterton; “and no two men enter at exactly the same angle.” Finally, I can only rely upon my reason, my intuitions, my feelings, my faith, under the grace and mercy of God. May God forgive me if I have chosen wrongly."

pontifications.wordpress.com/road-to-rome/

I really admire what you and Jon have to ask and what you two think about this. It is a paramount question. In my own personal understand, through the eyes of a faithful Catholic, is that you need to trust in God for the truth. I would say, go in prayer. Catholics are taught that Orthodox sacraments are valid. I think Orthodox feels the same about Catholic sacraments. Both claim to be the true Church, the bride of Christ. Well, the most logical thing for anyone inquiring would be to go to tabernacles where the valid Blessed Sacrament is within the Orthodox and Catholic Churches and pray to Almighty, All-knowing, and All-loving God that he will send his Spirit to guild you as you pray.

If God is the driver, wherever you are sent (make sure to be honest and throw out your own ideas) then you can’t go wrong. The Father would know who the bride of his Son. The Son founded the Church that is his bride. And the Holy Spirit guides the bride. You’re good to go.

Important: I would highly highly suggest you pray very passionate and very specifically. Not just how to be in good graces with God or who has proper sacraments. Ask such questions as where can I become a saint, where is the Church founded by Christ now, which one would the Apostles say have kept to their teachings throughout time, and where does Christ want me to be to best worship him?

P.S. You may already be doing this. But I think if you really commit, you’ll know the answer to your question. Don’t hesitate. There are lots of ways to learn about God, but what better way to learn if either Catholics or Orthodox have it right then to ask the Blessed Sacrament that they both worship!

 

[wanner47]

Just to clarify, the ONLY reason I mentioned my degree/GPA was because Jon Hus seemed to be implying that I was uneducated (as opposed to his own academic background). I didn’t bring it up to brag, only to demonstrate that I was a college-educated person and thus did possess a modicum of critical-thinking skills and academic ability.

I’m sorry if it came across as arrogant or boastful. Mea culpa.

 

[crazzeto]

Just to clarify, the ONLY reason I mentioned my degree/GPA was because Jon Hus seemed to be implying that I was uneducated (as opposed to his own academic background). I didn’t bring it up to brag, only to demonstrate that I was a college-educated person and thus did possess a modicum of critical-thinking skills and academic ability.

I’m sorry if it came across as arrogant or boastful. Mea culpa.

Might have started with me, when I mentioned I was a history minor because the same poster tried suggesting I knew nothing of scripture or history though a host of straw man arguments. So my bad there.

 

[JonNC]

=workingman;6011165]What the hay. I think we were going to discuss this once before and never got to it. The Eucharist; It is not the true presence that is a issue due to Lutherans normally hold to this view. It was for me what seemed to be a lack of reverence their of. I think the differences are quite obvious by look at just the basics on it between the LCMS and the CC. No adoration in the LCMS, no place to store “extra consecrated host” and improper disposal of the consecrated blood. I witnessed consecrated host tossed into a waist can and on several occasions people drunk off the left over communion wine after church instead of poring it into the ground. I know the earlier listed is not supposed to be policy of the LCMS but when brought to attention it was blatantly ignored. I know some of this sounds like a church specific problem but I witnessed this in a couple.

Cannot argue with you. Some of these are disturbing issues for me as well. Certainly, an aumbry should be used to store the unused consecrated host, even if one believes that it is for the sacramental act - eat and drink. But it is also true that adoration was not rejected by Luther of his evangelical catholic contemporaries.

Now I want to be a little careful with the synod part but to put it politely I am not nor ever was a fan of Kishnic (sp?) The LCMS Synod president. He was not much of a “confessional” Lutheran from the word go. He seemed a bit on the loose end to me. There were better candidates at the time though names illude me at this time. The Ablaze program was a complete joke and those who are still with the LCMS know what I am talking about. In my opinion if it was not for people like Rev. Paul McCane the LCMS would be in a far off worse situation than what it is. IMO the Synod press would do away with the liturgy go full “church growth movement” then the next thing you know away with private confession, the Lords supper is only a symbol, and the things that identified them as Lutheran are gone. Not to get off base but look at the ELCA.

I have said for a long time that I would probably not leave the Lutheran Church, so much as be pushed out. Seems like that was your experience.

I held to a Marian devotion even as a Lutheran along with intercessory prayer. This lead to problems though this is supposed to be adiaphora. I was labeled as a Marian Cultist. Did Luther himself not hold a similar devotion. At this point needless to say I did not feel welcomed or wanted. I realized my beliefs were far more Catholic than in line with todays Lutheran Church.

Sad that you, as a true Lutheran, were rejected by protestantized faux Lutherans.
Glad that you found a home where the Holy Spirit leads you in HIs Grace.

And thanks for sharing,
Jon

 

[JonNC]

=ralphinal;6011579]Had Luther been in an area with exposur to Orthodoxy, his name might be forgotten. He probably would have just gone that route. Not that I am saying that the Orthodox are correct, mind you.

Let me ask it this way: if you are sure that Lutheranism is not 100% correct, are you willing to say it is as correct as either Orthodoxy or Catholocism? Some of you have been throwing majors and GPAs around (ended up a Psych major with minors in Math, Chemistry, and History here, GPA around 3), so let us look at it this way.

Let’s say that all of Christianity represents a test score. Both Orthodoxy and Catholicism claim to have a 100%, but we can safely say that both have an A. Are you safe enough in your church to say that Lutheranism also has an A? Or, would you say that it is a B?

Basically, from this standpoint, either would be better, no matter which is totally correct

Hi Ralph,
It is curious, and to someone like me, a bit confusing that you close your first paragraph by saying, "Not that I am saying that the Orthodox are correct, mind you.", then feel safe in giving them an “A”. And that is the confusion Iowajay and I are talking about. Yes, I feel safe enough in Lutheransim to say it also has an “A”, or close enough to it. So, if I’m going to change, another “A” isn’t good enough. I need to be certain that the “A” Church I move to is the 100% true Church. Without east-west reconciliation, there is no way to know which (if either) is just that. And why take the risk of changing, and maybe going from one tier 2 church to another?

Now, of course, as I told workingman above, there is always the possibility of being pushed - somewhere.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

BTW, thanks to the OP for this thread, as some of the good Catholics that I really respect have showed up on it.

Jon