Former Lutherans, now Catholic?

[StillWondering]

Agreed - a Lutheran who follows the current teachings of the ELCA, LCMS, or WELS could not submit themself to the Vicar of Rome. The ELCA is too liberal, the LCMS is too anti-heirarchical, and WELS too isolationist.

If instead, you limit your definition of a “Lutheran” as someone who follows the Augsburg Confession, then it is theoretically possible to submit to the Vicar of Rome and be a “Lutheran.” In the 1970s, a group of Catholic theologians (not just the liberal ones - Cardinal Ratzinger was a part of the group) indicated that it might be possible to recognize the A.C. as an authentic expression of the Catholic faith. For one, many of the concerns addressed in the A.C. were addressed by Vatican II, and two, the statement in the A.C. regarding justification does not delve into the minute details of salvation, thus providing for the kind of common ground that was finally realized in 1999’s Joint Doctrine on Justification.

The Catholic Church teaches that the fullness of Christ’s teachings subsis in the Catholic Church and the other faith communities share some of these truths. So that Augsburg Confession is one of those examples. It contains a portion of the truths without the heresies as taught by the Church. No offense to anyone about the heretical teachings others may hold .

Yeah, I know. But I’m a western Christian, too.

Jon

From my personal perspective, if that church is the true Church just go right in. For a while Masses were done in Latin and that’s not a language people normally speak. But there were still people waking up at 6 AM to head to Mass before they start their day.

Yes. Agreed.

Because he, to my knowledge, do not do so prior to the Schism.
On the second, I would think he would necessarily need to be involved, as would the other patriarchs.

Jon

The Church teaches many many things that are not explicit about God and salvation alone. The Church promotes NFP and social justice. These are indirectly related. They are not dogmas but they rely on revelations.

As for the popes. Before the Schism, the popes were powerful! As mentioned they waged wars, including one to suppress a heresy. But on top of this, the popes had a great deal of ecclesiastic powers. Pope Gregory the Great appointed the Patriarch of Antioch (I think I have my details right – should be online). Technically Patriarchs are chosen by their local bishops and approved by the Pope. However, Gregory saw the confident as unsatisfactory and twice told the local bishops to choose another. In addition, there was at least one major council that was never listed as ecumenical even though it was an important one. The pope at the time would not approve what they have decided. So another council was formed at a later date. Sorry I don’t know the details on that one. Read it in passing and I have a poor memory.

And here is a quote about Pope St. Leo the Great fighting heresy:

To settle the matter, he convoked the Council of Chalcedon in 451, at which his Tome was read and the attending bishops shouted in response, ‘This is the faith of the Fathers; this is the faith of the apostles; we all believe this; the orthodox believe this; anathema to him who believes otherwise. Peter has spoken through Leo.’ The Council then defined that ‘the same Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son, must be acknowledged in two natures, without confusion or change, without division or separation.’

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0510fea3.asp (Who were the “Great” popes?)

And wait, there was Peter the first pope. People were whispering behind his back when he met with gentiles in the acts. After a while they confronted him, these were the elders too. Well, he declared to them that the gentiles are clean because God declared so. That’s a pretty infallible type message. Though I guess people would say Peter is an exception. But if his successors can’t be free from error in teaching authoritatively as he is, who’s to lead the flock who also includes the other bishops. Remember the last chapter in the Gospel of John with the three pastoral statements Jesus made to Peter and how there are both sheep and lambs?

 

[olorin12]

Thanks for the replies, everyone.

For me, there are two main issues between Catholics and Lutherans: Authority and Salvation.

It seems to me, in my short time studying the matter, that the Catholics have the Authority issue locked down.

That leaves the Salvation issue, which I’m doing some reading on.

I have read most of James Akin’s ‘The Salvation Controversy’. It was semi-helpful. Unfortunately, he addresses the Calvinist side of the controversy, not the Lutheran side. Contrary to popular (Catholic) belief, they are not essentially the same. There are many nuances in the Lutheran position which a convert to Catholicism from Calvinism will not see when addressing Justification in particular and Salvation in general.

I also came across this article: catholicdefense.googlepages.com/article.htm
Is this a pretty good (and orthodox) Catholic rebuttal to the Lutheran view of Justification?
Also, at the end of his article, he mentions Robert Sungenis’ book Not By Faith Alone. As I understand it, Sungenis has gone of the Traditionalist deep end and now espouses geo-centrism, among other questionable things. I’m only really interested in official Catholicism. Is the Not By Faith Alone book a good representation of an official Catholic view of Salvation? There isn’t any ‘JPII isn’t a real pope’ stuff in that book, is there?

In Christ,
olorin12

 

[StillWondering]

Hello Olorin,

I am a second grader when it comes to theology, so I did some searches online to give you links. Since I know nothing about Lutherans, I can only hope these are useful to you and/or can lean you further along.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19950531en.html
This is an audience given by Blessed Pope john Paul II on how Salvation is through Christ.

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p122a4p2.htm#II
This is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church has to say about salvation as part of God’s plan.

ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=7056&T1=salvation
And here is a audio series of catechism teachings from a priest. Not only about salvation but other parts of core Catholic teachings. It’s intended audiences are for the poorly catechized Catholics and the off-chance inquires.

 

[olorin12]

StillWondering,
Thanks for the links.

Has anyone read Sungenis’ ‘Not By Faith Alone’? Would you recommend it to a Lutheran, and does it have any of Sungenis’ more controversial recent views?

In Christ,
olorin12

 

[wanner47]

olorin12, you may want to try calling in to CA Live and asking Jimmy Akin himself what he’d recommend, or contact him through his blog (www.jimmyakin.org). Good luck and God bless!

 

[Sword_Brethren]

Did you know that Martin Luther was at one time a Roman Catholic priest? Trained in Roman Catholic Seminary? A really interesting read for a truth seaker as yourself is his book bondage of the will. Even though it was written by the german bumkin, it is a challanging read so I would’t blame you if you took a pass. How about his 7 volume sermon collection?Not much about the dogmas of Mary in those, but no doubt it was edited out right?

?

Why study Fr. Luther’s writing? Who was he but a bad priest. Should we study Arius’s writing ,Fr. Hus, Thomas Munzters, David Koreshs or Oral Robert’s?

 

[ralphinal]

Why study Fr. Luther’s writing? Who was he but a bad priest. Should we study Arius’s writing ,Fr. Hus, Fr. Thomas Munzters, David Koreshs or Oral Robert’s?

From an intellectual and theological standpoint, yes. We should know the arguments and the errors they present.

From a faith formation standpoint, we have a different answer

 

[Lutheranteach]

His superiors always said Luther was one of the most pious of all priest they had known or trained and he was considered an outstanding professor and teacher of theology who students, other professors, and others would walk miles to see.A brilliant guy who learned how to adjust his delivery (but not the message) depending on whom he was talking to.

 

[yoopersenior]

He also suffered from scrupulosity, didn’t he?

 

[AmericanJosiah]

Hi.
I’m a Lutheran investigating Catholicism.
Are there any Catholics here that used to be Lutheran? If so, which church body did you leave for Rome? And what was the main argument(s) that were effective in your conversion? Any ‘smoking guns’ or ‘nails in the coffin’?
Thanks.

In Christ

Former Catholic now Lutheran

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