Former Questions Please share with us why?

[Roy5]

Now and then someone suggests here on CAF that it’s tougher to be a Catholic.

 As someone of mixed Catholic/Protestant heritage I've wondered about that. 

 Catholicism basically dictates how a Catholic is supposed to live and what he/she is supposed to believe. Fundamentalist Protestantism does about the same.

 However, most mainline denominations - such as Episcopalians, Methodists, UCC, Presbyterians, etc. - allow their communicants far more freedom when it comes to both lifestyles and doctrines. For example, take abortion. I happen to oppose it generally, but there are situations where I believe it is morally justified. I know a case where a woman had six children already, her doctor warned her that another pregnancy could be fatal, and she and her husband sought an abortion. They would prefer to let this mother of six young children live rather than risk her life as well as that of the 7th baby - and leave a griefing husband and six motherless children. True, we could argue about that, but I believe they should not be treated as criminals because they made that choice. And we could go on.

  As for birth control that Catholic couple had used only the church-approved method which obviously wasn't working. Condemning artificial birth control makes the church appear irrelevant and archaic, especially when when it hierarchy is 100% unmarried male.

  In the field of doctrine, like millions of others, I have a mind that is perfectly able to examine, weigh, search, consider and read widely when it comes to such matters as transubstantiation or the Immaculate Conception or the infallibility if the Pope on matters of faith and morals. I need a church community that permits such freedom, which is why I've had a big problem with Catholicism. 

  But it could be argued that being a Protestant is tougher in some respects than being a Catholic. Why? You have to paddle your own canoe. Catholicism gives you 'right and wrong. true and false' all packaged. You only have to obey. 

 Let me add that the Protestant side of my family was fundamentalist (which I certainly am not), but they really followed a tough regimen. No alcohol. No tobacco. No casinos. No Sunday movies or shopping. At church nearly all day every Sunday. Etc. That could be quite tough.

 

[Being_Brave]

I’m a well-educated woman and I understand tradition versus scripture and all those aspects of the Catholic faith but I also know that the relationship with God is personal and we have to go where He calls us].

For the record, I’m not even through RCIA yet, so I definitely have a lot to learn and I’m not afraid to admit it

This (going where He calls you) is something that I think the evangelical in me still tugs at, constantly. I have had extensive, in-depth discussions with Baptists who seem to understand WHY the CC teaches certain things and (given scriptural support) admit sound reason behind the teaching, yet refuse to say they believe it also. (My best friend is one of these people).

Where I come to the conclusion that God puts us where he needs us is in how I see people like my friend affecting those she speaks to. She is able to introduce people to faith, even when they refused to listen to any other person. God knows us better than we know us, and he knows what it takes to get us to listen. I’m absolutely sure that the CC is the one true church, but I also think that He has put people like my friend in other places because they can reach people who would have otherwise ignored Him. The Baptist faith was just one stop on my journey to the CC and I know my story isn’t unique. If I wouldn’t have been brought up Baptist I would never have found the Catholic Church*. Yes, it would have been better for me to have been a “cradle Catholic”, but then I would have no connection to the others from the Baptist church that I brought with me (and He knows I’m never going to stop “fishing” for my friend).

*I began learning about the CC as a method of soul-winning as a Baptist. I thought it was important to understand the teaching so that I knew how to talk to Catholics. And once I started learning I just couldn’t stop.

 

[danonwaveland]

Being_Brave,

Interesting story and interesting insights. God bless you – and all of us – on your/our journey(s).

God bless,
Dan

 

[PJM]

=Roy5;7043691]Now and then someone suggests here on CAF that it’s tougher to be a Catholic.

 As someone of mixed Catholic/Protestant heritage I've wondered about that.

 Catholicism basically dictates how a Catholic is supposed to live and what he/she is supposed to believe. Fundamentalist Protestantism does about the same.

 However, most mainline denominations - such as Episcopalians, Methodists, UCC, Presbyterians, etc. - allow their communicants far more freedom when it comes to both lifestyles and doctrines. For example, take abortion. I happen to oppose it generally, but there are situations where I believe it is morally justified. I know a case where a woman had six children already, her doctor warned her that another pregnancy could be fatal, and she and her husband sought an abortion. They would prefer to let this mother of six young children live rather than risk her life as well as that of the 7th baby - and leave a griefing husband and six motherless children. True, we could argue about that, but I believe they should not be treated as criminals because they made that choice. And we could go on.

  As for birth control that Catholic couple had used only the church-approved method which obviously wasn't working. Condemning artificial birth control makes the church appear irrelevant and archaic, especially when when it hierarchy is 100% unmarried male.

  In the field of doctrine, like millions of others, I have a mind that is perfectly able to examine, weigh, search, consider and read widely when it comes to such matters as transubstantiation or the Immaculate Conception or the infallibility if the Pope on matters of faith and morals. I need a church community that permits such freedom, which is why I've had a big problem with Catholicism.

  But it could be argued that being a Protestant is tougher in some respects than being a Catholic. Why? You have to paddle your own canoe. Catholicism gives you 'right and wrong. true and false' all packaged. You only have to obey.

 Let me add that the Protestant side of my family was fundamentalist (which I certainly am not), but they really followed a tough regimen. No alcohol. No tobacco. No casinos. No Sunday movies or shopping. At church nearly all day every Sunday. Etc. That could be quite tough.

Dear Brother Roy,

You cannot hold this position and be a practicing Christian much less a practicing Catholic. The FIFTH COMMANDMENT forbids murder.

That my dear friend is NOT the Pope, NOT the Church but God Himself.

You would do your soul a favor to listen.

God remains always in charge.

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[stormy99]

While I joined the Catholic Church from an evangelical protestant background, a friend of mine left the Church. He was getting married to a non-catholic who had been previously married. She was in the process of joining the Catholic Church when they felt the questions they were being asked by the priest were becoming “too personal”. They decided that the “invasion of privacy” was too much. Now, they don’t go to any church although they allow their kids to sometimes attend a United Methodist Church.

Having gone through the anullment process myself, I understood how uncomfortable the questions can be, but it’s sad that someone who was raised Catholic would walk away from the faith because of that.

The “going through the annullment, or rather invalidity” questions can be brutual…but my priest did not ask them at all…I received them written out for me to answer…it was a soul searching time for me and to make matters worse Ihad to find my first husband and disturb his life in the process…

I am a Catholic convert…we hear NO anti abortion homilies in our parish…they are always connected to the readings…they speak of Jesus and of God…

It took me a long time to find my home in the Catholic Church and in doing that, brought my fallen away Catholic husband with me…our son converted before I did…

The spirit speaks if we are willing to listen.

stormy

 

[schaick]

Dear Brother Roy,

You cannot hold this position and be a practicing Christian much less a practicing Catholic. The FIFTH COMMANDMENT forbids murder.

That my dear friend is NOT the Pope, NOT the Church but God Himself.

You would do your soul a favor to listen.

God remains always in charge.

Love and prayers,
Pat

I agree and I am too am against abortion.

If the woman had adequate birth control in the first place there would not have been a need for abortion.

 

[Dokimas]

Given the number of fallen away [Former “Catholics”], I 'd really like to gain some insight on what caused your departure?

I ask all to apply extreme charity in this dialog.

Love and prayers,
Pat

Maybe you could have used different words to ask you question. To call all those who have left the CC ‘fallen away’ implies something that may be as answer to your question: arrogance.

There are those who don’t go to CC because they have no desire to follow Jesus. Okay, you may call them ‘fallen away’. But to call those that serve Jesus in another church setting ‘fallen away’ seems arrogant and unkind, not to mention untruthful, IMO.

Of course I can’t speak to the question directly because I was never a catholic. I’m a Christian which love interacting with other true Christians that are charitable no matter what church they go to.

 

[guanophore]

I agree and I am too am against abortion.

If the woman had adequate birth control in the first place there would not have been a need for abortion.

Something is wrong with this reasoning. It is the same as saying “if the murder of the child had occured sooner, then dismembering a larger body would not be necessary.” I mean, why stop after the birth? Why not extend the annihilation of the child up to the age of “reason”?

If a woman has a two year old she gets overwhelmed with, then she can follow this line of reasoning,and say “well, if I had aborted this child while I was pregnant, I would not be having to deal with him now” (I actually heard such a mother say this). So, what is the difference between killing the fertilized egg, which science declares is human, scraping the fetus from the wall of the uterus at 3-4 months, or stabbing the base of the skull and sucking out the brain (partial birth abortion) and killing the 2 year old? They all take the life of the human.

 

[guanophore]

Maybe you could have used different words to ask you question. To call all those who have left the CC ‘fallen away’ implies something that may be as answer to your question: arrogance.

There are those who don’t go to CC because they have no desire to follow Jesus. Okay, you may call them ‘fallen away’. But to call those that serve Jesus in another church setting ‘fallen away’ seems arrogant and unkind, not to mention untruthful, IMO.

Of course I can’t speak to the question directly because I was never a catholic. I’m a Christian which love interacting with other true Christians that are charitable no matter what church they go to.

This is a good point. When I left Catholicism, it was because I wanted a more authentic experience of the Christian life that I was not experiencing in the Catholic Church. I wanted to read the bible, which I was not taught when I was growing up, but my Baptist brethren did daily.

The concept of “fallen away” has to do with departing from the fullness of the faith that was handed down to us through the Apostolic Succession. However, most Catholics have not even received this, nor do they understand it. If they did, they would never leave. So it is not really that they are “fallen away” as much as they never had a grasp in the first place. Many Catholics have catechism as children, but when they become adults, they never take responsibility for growing in their faith, so their faith remains at a very immature state.

Then there are those who are in outright rebellion against the commandments of God, for example, they reject that “thou shalt not kill” applies to a fertalized egg, so they want to use birth control or abortion to kill the child that has been conceived. these “fall way” because they reject the commandments of God.

 

[fhansen]

The concept of “fallen away” has to do with departing from the fullness of the faith that was handed down to us through the Apostolic Succession. However, most Catholics have not even received this, nor do they understand it. If they did, they would never leave. So it is not really that they are “fallen away” as much as they never had a grasp in the first place. Many Catholics have catechism as children, but when they become adults, they never take responsibility for growing in their faith, so their faith remains at a very immature state.

I think Catholics need to be told that the Christian walk only begins with the Sacraments of Initiation. From there, if we really want to understand our faith and grow in the knowledge of God, we need to keep on walking, right up to heavens door, asking, seeking, knocking, rather than consider our perspective to be as complete as possible in this life once we’ve “graduated”, so to speak.

 

[TedDC]

This is a good point. When I left Catholicism, it was because I wanted a more authentic experience of the Christian life that I was not experiencing in the Catholic Church. I wanted to read the bible, which I was not taught when I was growing up, but my Baptist brethren did daily.

The concept of “fallen away” has to do with departing from the fullness of the faith that was handed down to us through the Apostolic Succession. However, most Catholics have not even received this, nor do they understand it. If they did, they would never leave. So it is not really that they are “fallen away” as much as they never had a grasp in the first place. Many Catholics have catechism as children, but when they become adults, they never take responsibility for growing in their faith, so their faith remains at a very immature state.

Then there are those who are in outright rebellion against the commandments of God, for example, they reject that “thou shalt not kill” applies to a fertalized egg, so they want to use birth control or abortion to kill the child that has been conceived. these “fall way” because they reject the commandments of God.

Not necessarily true. In my case, learning more about the faith brought about a realization that I don’t believe many of its essential tenets.

 

[schaick]

Something is wrong with this reasoning. It is the same as saying “if the murder of the child had occured sooner, then dismembering a larger body would not be necessary.” I mean, why stop after the birth? Why not extend the annihilation of the child up to the age of “reason”?

If a woman has a two year old she gets overwhelmed with, then she can follow this line of reasoning,and say “well, if I had aborted this child while I was pregnant, I would not be having to deal with him now” (I actually heard such a mother say this). So, what is the difference between killing the fertilized egg, which science declares is human, scraping the fetus from the wall of the uterus at 3-4 months, or stabbing the base of the skull and sucking out the brain (partial birth abortion) and killing the 2 year old? They all take the life of the human.

I agree with you and am very much against destroying fertilized eggs.

There are barrier birth control methods that do not allow the sperm and egg to join.

Funny story - Back in the late 60’s early 70’s my widowed 60+ year old Catholic Nana, a cousin and I were watching the Pope speak. He said something about sex being only for procreation.

We never saw our Nana more disgusted- she screamed out “What, he doesn’t have any idea what he is talking about!”

At our young age we were floored- we had no idea that Nanas thought about sex! We had only just discovered that our parents had sex!!!

 

[Being_Brave]

I think Catholics need to be told that the Christian walk only begins with the Sacraments of Initiation. From there, if we really want to understand our faith and grow in the knowledge of God, we need to keep on walking, right up to heavens door, asking, seeking, knocking, rather than consider our perspective to be as complete as possible in this life once we’ve “graduated”, so to speak.

 

[Being_Brave]

Funny story - Back in the late 60’s early 70’s my widowed 60+ year old Catholic Nana, a cousin and I were watching the Pope speak. He said something about sex being only for procreation.

We never saw our Nana more disgusted- she screamed out “What, he doesn’t have any idea what he is talking about!”

At our young age we were floored- we had no idea that Nanas thought about sex! We had only just discovered that our parents had sex!!!

That reminds me of the first time I heard my granny talk about sex. I was 17 and I was mortified!! I’d never even considered the option of my granny knowing what sex was…that’s not what grannies do!!! lol

 

[elvisman]

I understand the RCC teaching but it is not taught in Scripture. The cleansing fire happens here during our time on earth. When we die our spirit is with Jesus. Our spirit has been cleansed by the Blood, every sin has been cleansed. Sin is manifested in the flesh which returns to the earth waiting for the final redemption. Your teaching is carnal or fleshly because it suggests more has to be done and is works based because others can offer things to get us out. When we are born again our spirit is made alive and must be strengthened to overcome the sin nature of the flesh and its desires. Eph 6:10-17 among other places.

We must cooperate with God’s grace or we cannot be saved. This is what Free Will is all about friend.

Many Protestants feel that this is unnecessary, but in doing so, they render Scripture useless. **Acts 7:51 tells us that you can resist God’s grace:
"You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you".

Mark 16:20 tells us that we work WITH - not BY the Holy Spirit:
**"And they went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with (sunergountos) them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it. **

Romans 8:28 says that God works WITH us:
"We know that in everything God works for good with (sunergei eis agathon) those who love him, who are called according to his purpose."

Finally, in 2 Cor. 6:1, Paul emphatically states: "Working together with (sunergountes) him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain".

It’s all about COOPERATION with grace - God doesn’t force himself on anybody . . .

 

[elvisman]

In remembering the body and blood of Jesus we are remembering what was accomplished. That Jesus bore the penalty for our sins and we are clean - past, present and future - so we are purified by the cross - no need for further purification. Our flesh does not accompany us because sin resides there. Our flesh will be made new upon the return of Jesus.

**So, you *never *have to repent again? you can just gpo on sinning and never ask for forgiveness because you only have to do it ONCE? That is nothing but overwhelming arrogance. **

**It’s a good thing that Jesus, Peter, John and Paul didn’t believe OR teach that (******Matt. 24:13, ****Romans 11:22, **Hebrews 10:26-27, **2 Peter 2:20-21, John 15:1-9).

Rev. 21:27 tells us that nothing impure can enter heaven. Are you as holy as you can be - holy as you will ever be - even in Heaven? Is THAT what you’re claiming?
Remember - NOTHING unclean can enter heaven - not even snow-covered dunghills . . .

Not Roman Catholic but Christian part of the universal Body of Christ.

No - you’re outside the Universal Body of Christ because you have rejected it (Luke 10:16).

Full of Grace at that moment not from birth. It goes against too many Scriptures.

Such as?

You can call it by another name, adoration, but it has all the components of worship. It is exactly the same process as heathen worship. Statue or physical object, offeriing, such as flowers, candles and prayers and songs. You just spin it in a way that sounds right. Even though you use an OT model of the queen mother; it does not apply because Jesus did away with the old model. Acts would have been a perfect place to establish Marian doctrine but I don’t see it there. While I admire Mary and call her blessed for her ministry, I feel the RCC goes beyond Scripture in the place they give her.

**Gee – I ****hope **you’ve never kissed at a picture of a loved one – or looked longingly at it. Somebody might accuse you of adoration or worship.
What a crock . . .

**We do not now, nor have we ever worshipped Mary or any other created being. Your failure to understand Latria (reserved for GOD alone), Dulia (special honor given to saints in heaven) and ****Hyprdulia *****(special honor reserved for the Mother of God) ***is the root of these bizarre false charges.

As for the “old model” – your blunder there is that you do not understand WHY Christ came in the first place. It wasn’t to “do away with the old model” – it was to FULFILL it (Matt. 5:17).

 

[Karamazov]

The “going through the annullment, or rather invalidity” questions can be brutual…but my priest did not ask them at all…I received them written out for me to answer…it was a soul searching time for me and to make matters worse I had to find my first husband and disturb his life in the process…

Why did you have to do this? Sorry for asking but I’m totally new to Catholicism and I’m currently learning about it from books and forums (like this one).

 

[schaick]

No - you’re outside the Universal Body of Christ because you have rejected it (Luke 10:16).

).

Jesus sends out what today we call missionaries:

Luke 10
1After this the Lord appointed seventy-two[a] others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go.
…
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

Christians have listened to “them”, those that preach GOD’s Word and those that put GOD’s Word down in Scripture.

 

[elvisman]

Jesus sends out what today we call missionaries:

Luke 10
1After this the Lord appointed seventy-two[a] others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go.
…
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

Christians have listened to “them”, those that preach GOD’s Word and those that put GOD’s Word down in Scripture.

Here is a little rule about hermeneutics:
When Jesus is speaking to the masses - he is speaking to ALL of us.
When he is speaking to and giving instructions to his Apostles and close disciples - he is speaking to the Church leaders.

 

[Todd520]

Elvis,
Would you provide a link to this rule?
It must be a principle of Roman Catholic hermeneutics since I thought hermeneutics was complex and somewhat controversial (like interpretation in general)

Here is a little rule about hermeneutics:
When Jesus is speaking to the masses - he is speaking to ALL of us.
When he is speaking to and giving instructions to his Apostles and close disciples - he is speaking to the Church leaders.