Former Questions Please share with us why?

[guanophore]

Can anyone confirm the validity of this? It reads more like an internet hoax. If true… It’s just unthinkable.

Unfortunately, the appointed shepherds of the flock of God have done many unthinkable and reprehensible things. Men are always in need of reform. The part where the Reformers left the path was not in their recognition that corruption was rampant. It was thinking that the Teachings of Jesus that had been committed once for all to the Saints had to be remodeled.

 

[guanophore]

  Back to naming an example of falliblity:  If you believe in fact that Peter was the first Pope:

Galatians 2
11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.
14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

15"We who are Jews by birth and not ‘Gentile sinners’ 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

Apparently you have confused infallibility with impeccability. This is a common mistake.

If people did not make mistakes, there would be no reason for the gift of infallibility.

 

[tenderfoot]

I began to have doubts after researching transubstantiation. This lead to more doubts. The duplicity of what the Church’s doctrines state and what the Church teaches is why I left. After I left I had a deeper commitment to scripture. The Psalms came alive for me. I began to see Jesus in my neighbor. As I studied the Gospel of John, I saw the difference between being a Christian and the world. Life became a whole lot harder, but there was also a greater sense of peace. Christ became the center to everything. The things that really matter became more alive. I would not consider my marriage to have been bad but with Christ involved in became greater. If I had stayed in the Catholic Church I don’t think this would have been possible, certainly not in the parishes I had beloged to.

 

[Light1111]

guanophore,

Thanks for patiently walking me through my question, and applying the appropriate passages to your explanation! I sure appreciate your taking the time!

Peace!
Light1111

 

[schaick]

Apparently you have confused infallibility with impeccability. This is a common mistake.

If people did not make mistakes, there would be no reason for the gift of infallibility.

Sorry response was incomplete- Can’t you read my mind? LOL!

We see Peter was questioned and corrected.

No one is allowed to question the developed at a later date doctrines and dogmas- Luther with the paying for indulgences, purgatory, Pope infallibility, Mary Dogmas, etc.

No newly developed has come to the Catholic Church without people questioning it.

No one is allowed to question what is in the “deposit of faith” only the heirarchy has access to the "deposit of faith. The deposit of faith is revealed hundreds of years later?

A deposit of faith- secret to only the Catholic Church?

 

[guanophore]

I began to have doubts after researching transubstantiation. This lead to more doubts. The duplicity of what the Church’s doctrines state and what the Church teaches is why I left. After I left I had a deeper commitment to scripture. The Psalms came alive for me. I began to see Jesus in my neighbor. As I studied the Gospel of John, I saw the difference between being a Christian and the world. Life became a whole lot harder, but there was also a greater sense of peace. Christ became the center to everything. The things that really matter became more alive. I would not consider my marriage to have been bad but with Christ involved in became greater. If I had stayed in the Catholic Church I don’t think this would have been possible, certainly not in the parishes I had beloged to.

I had a very similar experience. My catechesis was very poor, and I had some abysmal role models of the faith.

I think you may have a confusion, though, about “what the Church teaches”. The persons who are teaching do not necessarily (unfortunately) represent what the Church teaches. The Catechism is clear that families/parents are the first and most important teachers of the faith. Yet, if parents are not walking in the faith, then the teaching of the faith will be corrupted. This is not the fault of the Church.

Even priests, nuns, and other teachers of parochial schools do not always represent the faith of the Church. They will be judged with greater strictness.

Have you ever considered that, because you could see a discrepancy, God has called you to correct it?

Oh, almost forgot. Transubstantiation is a Western formulation of the mystery of the Lord’s supper. the Eastern concept was much easier for me to relate.

 

[guanophore]

Sorry response was incomplete- Can't you read my mind?  LOL!

Indeed not, and as you can see, I can’t even make sense out of what you post when no mind reading is required! Asking for proof of things while rejecting the existing evidence…it defies understanding.

We see Peter was questioned and corrected.

This is an example of how the Magesterium (teaching authority appointed by Christ) confronts and resolves hypocrisy, and other errors.

No one is allowed to question the developed at a later date doctrines and dogmas- Luther with the paying for indulgences, purgatory, Pope infallibility, Mary Dogmas, etc.

Again you are mixing apples and oranges, Teachings and abuses.

Paul did not “question” Peter so that he could gain knowledge. Paul already knew what Peter had done was wrong because it was not consistent with Peter’s own infallible teaching. Hypocrisy of this kind can, and should, always be confronted.

It is theologically impossible to “buy” an indulgence. This has been the constant teaching of the Church. An indulgence is a dispensation of grace. We cannot “purchase” or otherwise “earn” grace. It is a free gift. Clerics who taught and practiced otherwise, (and there were many) departed from the Truth of the Faith, just as Peter had done by his hypocritical behavior. Luther and others were right to confront this hypocrisy.

Purgatory came into Catholicism from Judaism, and cannot be considered a “later” development. One of the reasons that the Protestants wanted to jettison the Deuterocanon is that it’s pages contain the proof of Purgatory.

I think you don’t understand the gift of infallibility. If you did, you would not be making these mixed up post, confusing it with impeccability.

Dogmas and developed doctrines cannot extend beyond the Once for All Divine Deposit of faith that closed with the death of the last Apostle.

No newly developed has come to the Catholic Church without people questioning it.

There are two kinds of questions. One is not really a question at all , but an act of rebellion. The other is to ask for information.

What I think you are talking about is resistance.

Docttine is developed just as the illustration is given in Acts. The problem is brought to the Teaching Authority appointed by Christ. They pray, they deliberate, they decide, then they inform the disciples.

No one is allowed to question what is in the “deposit of faith” only the heirarchy has access to the "deposit of faith. The deposit of faith is revealed hundreds of years later?

Your questions about what is present in the Deposit cannot be answered because you reject the evidence. No, the faithful have access to the deposit of faith. Yes, some aspects of the Deposit are revealed hundreds of years later. The canon of the NT is a good example of this. The books were inspired when they were written, but the decision to create and close the canon did not occur until 382 AD. You are also correct, there was vigorous debate about the collection of books, and some of them “barely” seemed to make it into the canon.

A deposit of faith- secret to only the Catholic Church?

Available only to those who are open to receive it. There are many “Catholics” that refuse to receive it also. You are not alone.

 

[Light1111]

Hello group!

I thought I’d rejoin this discussion. Actually this also involves the thread in which posters discuss belief: whether it is voluntary or involuntary, and to what extent we have any “control” over how we believe, what constitutes individual beliefs, and whether we can consciously align our personal beliefs with those of our faith, if in our hearts we actually believe differently.

I just came across a test/poll on belief.net, where one answers a series of questions pertaining to faith, God, religion. At the end, it determines which religions you are most closely aligned with, in your beliefs, from #1-27. It also states the percentage of alignment you appear to display. In my case, Catholicism ranked #27, and it said that 17% of my professed beliefs are in alignment with those of Catholicism. This returns me to my earlier discussion, regarding my departure from the Church. I know we have held disagreements on this point, but I don’t see how individuals can control their personal beliefs. In one believes differently, it seems to me one simply no longer can call themselves a member of their previous faith, even if they were raised within a given faith. In my personal experience, faith is involuntary. I do hold beliefs about God, but from this quiz, it is clear they are divergent from those of the CC. I’m comfortable with that, and if it helps anyone to understand my position, we’ve witnessed that gain, at the very least.

For anyone interested in seeing where they fall, regarding belief, the quiz can be found here:
beliefnet.com/Entertainment/Quizzes/BeliefOMatic.aspx

I don’t know whether this is considered an accurate depiction of belief, from a scholarly viewpoint, but to my mind, they satisfactorily listed out a variety of perspectives, asking for your personal belief on each, one at a time.

Peace!

 

[elvisman]

I don’t know one single man who follows the Mosaic Law to the letter.
What’s your point? It was prescribed in the Mosaic LAW for a man **to marry the widow of his brother to have children with her to continue the dead brother’s line. **
Are you denying that?

Also - what on earth does Lev. 15 have to do with the sin of Onan? Lev. 15:16 is not talking about sin - it’s about uncleanness.

Ummm . . . can I get an "LOL!" to that?

 

[elvisman]

He could have legally opted out and gotten away with a humiliation (as the widow would not be taken care of at all) or he could have fulfilled his obligation (which he wasn’t willing to do).
He broke the Law, defied the Lord and reaped what he sowed.

There is none so blind as she who refuses to see.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Return to the thread topic or it will be closed.

 

[Janet1983]

elvisman,

We got a Mod warning. I am going not going to comment any further on off-topic discussions and I suggest you do the same, lest this thread be closed:

Return to the thread topic or it will be closed.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

New discussion on Leviticus 15

 

[Todd520]

An analogy hit me as i read your post - Love
Some people claim they have no control over who they love - this is akin to uncontrolled belief Puppy love, or uncontrolled belief is like lust, something whimsical.

Arranged marriges often end up as loving relationships, and parents grow to love their children - this is akin to controlled belief Since LOVE is a verb, something you do to others, I think controlled belief is real love.

Like LOVE, a belief is something you can chose to do and actively nurture.

Hello group!
. . . in which posters discuss belief: whether it is voluntary or involuntary, and to what extent we have any “control” over how we believe, what constitutes individual beliefs, and whether we can consciously align our personal beliefs with those of our faith, if in our hearts we actually believe differently.

Peace!

 

[Light1111]

I agree with what you said, and was moved by it. True love for God, for oneself, and for one’s neighbor, would make this possible. Thank you!

 

[rikkk1958]

When I was in college I met a girl I liked who was a baptist. This university I attended since I was in second year in HS is a baptist school. In school I was swarmed with scriptural knowledge of my baptist classmates, friends, and sometimes strangers who would sit beside me and ask, “have you received Christ as your personal saviour?” I did went once or twice to a baptist service because of that girl but my focus was about her. But then I asked my mother if I can become a protestant, which she refused (her father was). I don’t even know the reason why I wanted to convert.

In New York, after 9/1, I was struck with the whole tragedy and my faith was in questioned because of how the terrorists blew themselves for their religion. Giving there selves for the cause of Islam. From then on, it was a long journey back to prove that my faith is stronger. So I studied again with anything I can find. Internet became the main source. As a “catholic” I am one of those who believes because I was told how to believe in school when I was young. Catechism during elementary grades are long forgotten and the core of our faith came from those teachings but not from our age of reason.

The posts I read in this thread are personal experiences that I think are based on personal capacity to reason on how to understand. Some are compelling and true. I admire their knowledge and understanding. For my own, I want to think that I have a reason to believe on my capacity to understand things also. But I also believe that I am not a “total genius” to overturn arguments that some believe are really true. Why I want to remain as a Roman Catholic is defined below.

I believed, because of my incapacity to know everything, but to obey and follow what the Church teaches because it has a stronger position on Faith and Morals. The position that is backed up by first of all, Scriptures, then history, early fathers, and quality scholars. There are those who may have other understandings on dogmas that the Church adopted but it appears they are contrary to those who originally wanted how the Church should be founded and continue by Jesus Christ.

For the most part of believing, I always maintain, that the Church will always be Divine no matter what humanity does. Thank God, for the Church, the only tangible way to connect with Him.

 

[gtrenewed]

One aspect of this discussion that should be remembered is that faith is lived out at the local level. Many people who stay, stay because of personal relationships as much as for doctrine. It is a family faith but perhaps not a personal faith. When an emptiness hits us, as it inevitably will, only a grounded faith will sustain us.

If we see our faith in the light of men then we will also see their darkness and our faith seems irrelevant. If we see our faith in the light of Jesus as lived out among men, we can withstand.

The protestant evangelizes with Jesus. If the catholic evangelizes it is with the trueness of the church. An empty catholic sees the local church as lifeless, clueless, full of hypocrisy, and irrelevant. When approached by someone talking of Jesus and being filled with certainity, and perhaps consciously praying to Jesus directly for the first time, it seems like new, spiritual life.

When they go to another church, they hear everyone talking about Jesus in their lives. It seems alive and spontaneous, perhaps like the early church. What does the catholic suggest - confession, meditation, rosary, adoration, etc. All things that are rewarding to a strong catholic but they seem empty to a struggling catholic because they are done in isolation, even confession seems isolated when in doubt.

Those that return find out that there is wheat and tares everywhere and miss the liturgy. Those that don’t have found new life in the scriptures and in personal relationships.

There are as many reasons as people and I have generalized here but have also shared some of my reasons. The best advice I can give is to keep the lines of communication open without judgementalism. An open, educated discourse can lead to thoughtful reflection.

To me the question to be answered was how did the first church act. We see a glimpse in the book of acts but also by reading the church fathers.