Forming a New Relgious Order using EF?

[Msecc27]

Hi,
I’m just wonder how you would go about starting up a new order in Ireland. I feel I have been called to the priesthood, and would like to join a order of canons regular but there is only one abbey of canons regular in Ireland, the Norbertines, who are no longer taking new applicants to their abbey. I prefer the canons regular, due to the semi-monastic and pastoral communal living, over fully monastic orders or clerks regular.

Before the Reformation Ireland had, apparently more than 200 houses of Augustinian canons regular, the Order completely died out in the early 19th century. I have thought about this for a while; to form a new order of Augustinian Canons in Ireland, using the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite as the sole liturgy. I find the Extraordinary Form to be much holier and meaningful than the ordinary for which I find somewhat unsanctified by comparison.

But this leads to problems, especially in Ireland, where most of the Bishops have no time for the mass in the Extraordinary Form and are liberals and big into the ‘spirit of Vatican II’. I was wondering would one have to join a diocese first and receive proper training in a FSSP seminary as a secular priest for that diocese first and then ask the diocesan bishop to set up the new order or would one first have to join a community of Canons Regular such as those in Lagrasse, and after ordination seek to make a foundation back in Ireland?

Thanks for your time,
God Bless

 

[Cristiano]

I think that you have a few personal issues that you have to resolve. This thread sounds more about you than being about religious or ordained life. I think that maybe you should reassess your personal relationship with God. Let the Divine Providence be in charge and you can just follow along.

 

[OraLabora]

I think that you have a few personal issues that you have to resolve. This thread sounds more about you than being about religious or ordained life. I think that maybe you should reassess your personal relationship with God. Let the Divine Providence be in charge and you can just follow along.

Indeed, the priesthood should be about more than the form of Mass celebrated, and community life in particular needs to be based on a call to join with and fit in with the charism of the order, not the form of the Mass.

There are Benedictine houses that use the EF, but that should be the secondary reason. The primary one should be wanting to be a Benedictine, then wanting to be a Benedictine in a specific community.

I wonder if the OP has ever been to a solemn OF Mass celebrated in Gregorian chant? Such as one might find in a Benedictine community of the Solesmes congregation. That may be enough to change his opinion about the OF Mass.

I know of a young postulant at the abbey I’m associated with that wanted to enter because it’s the most traditional religious community in my area (though it uses the OF, it’s all in Gregorian chant), and even though the abbey is in crying need of vocations, he was turned down because he didn’t first and foremost want to be a Benedictine, he wanted to be there mainly because it was conservative and has beautiful liturgy.

Any good novice master will be good at shaking down someone wanting to be there for the wrong reasons, and one must remember in a religious order, the community gets to decide if a postulant can first be admitted to simple vows, then again to solemn vows. One simply doesn’t enter because one wants to.

 

[Msecc27]

No i have never attended any OF Mass that you could call solemn, I am becoming more and more disillusioned with the OF ever time I attend an OF mass, you can not attend a Mass in Ireland where the priest is not running round jumping up and down at the altar or hi-fiving the altar servers and the congregation, during the ‘sign of peace’. I just find that Mass in the OF is not holy compared to the EF, which is much more reverential to the Blessed Sacraments.

Fortunately one local parish has began Exposition of the Blessed Sacraments. But that is the only parish in several miles that offers Eucharistic Adoration. Also that sacrament of reconciliation is non-existent, you have to go 40 miles to the Franciscan Friary or diocesan cathedral to get ‘confessions’, the only 2 places in our rural diocese of over 150,000 Catholics.

I feel called to parish ministry, but personally I would like to take part in coral recitation of the Breviary, so this is why I felt canons regular were the order for me or the order God wants for me.

 

[Avila123]

No i have never attended any OF Mass that you could call solemn, I am becoming more and more disillusioned with the OF ever time I attend an OF mass, you can not attend a Mass in Ireland where the priest is not running round jumping up and down at the altar or hi-fiving the altar servers and the congregation, during the ‘sign of peace’. I just find that Mass in the OF is not holy compared to the EF, which is much more reverential to the Blessed Sacraments.

Fortunately one local parish has began Exposition of the Blessed Sacraments. But that is the only parish in several miles that offers Eucharistic Adoration. Also that sacrament of reconciliation is non-existent, you have to go 40 miles to the Franciscan Friary or diocesan cathedral to get ‘confessions’, the only 2 places in our rural diocese of over 150,000 Catholics.

I feel called to parish ministry, but personally I would like to take part in coral recitation of the Breviary, so this is why I felt canons regular were the order for me or the order God wants for me.

I have only attended OF and have never seen a priest do anything during the sign of peace, except go to the Tabernacle. Parish priests vary as they all have different talents, the key as a previous person mentioned is first and foremost the vocation to the priesthood. God will then place you where He wants you to be and that may not be somewhere you are comfortable with or even like.

I can only suggest a period of discernment with a spiritual director or a retreat (even if it is in England or the US). Meanwhile, I pray that God will bless and guide you safely to your vocation.

 

[OraLabora]

No i have never attended any OF Mass that you could call solemn, I am becoming more and more disillusioned with the OF ever time I attend an OF mass, you can not attend a Mass in Ireland where the priest is not running round jumping up and down at the altar or hi-fiving the altar servers and the congregation, during the ‘sign of peace’. I just find that Mass in the OF is not holy compared to the EF, which is much more reverential to the Blessed Sacraments.

Fortunately one local parish has began Exposition of the Blessed Sacraments. But that is the only parish in several miles that offers Eucharistic Adoration. Also that sacrament of reconciliation is non-existent, you have to go 40 miles to the Franciscan Friary or diocesan cathedral to get ‘confessions’, the only 2 places in our rural diocese of over 150,000 Catholics.

I feel called to parish ministry, but personally I would like to take part in coral recitation of the Breviary, so this is why I felt canons regular were the order for me or the order God wants for me.

Try a Benedictine monastery. They sing the Office in choir, and in many places in Gregoran chant. It is also usually a heavier form of the Office than elsewhere, anything from a 2-week cycle to the original Benedictine cycle of 250 psalms per week. Solesmes in France does it in Gregorian chant; St-Wandrille in France also. Douai in England, a mix of English (Matins and mid-day) and Latin Gregorian chant (Vespers and Compline, with weekday Mass sung in Gregorian chant).

My own abbey, all OF, sings the Mass in plainchant; the Propers and Ordinary is in Gregorian chant (Latin and Greek), and the rest in French plainchant; Lauds and Vespers are chanted in Latin Gregorian chant, the rest in French plainchant.

If you’re looking for religious communities with a reverent OF Mass and haven’t found one, you haven’t been looking hard enough.

What I say above are not grounds for seeking a vocation there, that’s another matter. I’m pointing out where you can attend a reverent OF Mass (and Divine Office) in Gregorian chant.

 

[pnewton]

I have thought about this for a while; to form a new order of Augustinian Canons in Ireland, using the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite as the sole liturgy. I find the Extraordinary Form to be much holier and meaningful than the ordinary for which I find somewhat unsanctified by comparison.

Holiness proceeds from God. It is God that sanctifies (that’s what all the ringing of the bells is about). Our feelings are not really relevant. This is not really the place for, “My Jesus is better than your Jesus.”

In the last couple of weeks two of the reading from St. Ignatius (LOTH) have addressed the need to be obedient to the bishop and the impossibility of Catholicism apart from the bishop. I do not think any order will be allowed for the reasons above.

 

[tabycat]

Holiness proceeds from God. It is God that sanctifies (that’s what all the ringing of the bells is about). Our feelings are not really relevant. This is not really the place for, “My Jesus is better than your Jesus.”

In the last couple of weeks two of the reading from St. Ignatius (LOTH) have addressed the need to be obedient to the bishop and the impossibility of Catholicism apart from the bishop. I do not think any order will be allowed for the reasons above.

 

[bsroufek]

Forming a religious order around a particular version of the Mass is not a sound
idea, as basically all versions of the Mass have changed over time.

The particular version of the Mass is a passing thing, whereas a religious order should be
founded on lasting principles.

 

[malphono]

I feel I have been called to the priesthood, and would like to join a order of canons regular but there is only one abbey of canons regular in Ireland, the Norbertines, who are no longer taking new applicants to their abbey.

I may or may not have additional comments to make at a later time, but the highlighted portion in the above quote intrigues me. The question that comes to mind is, very simply, why are they not accepting novices? Are they already so full that they’re bulging at the seams? Or are they so bereft of new blood that they plan to close-up shop? Or is it the case that they just don’t have the facilities to accommodate formation? Whichever way, I’d be rather surprised if the superior hadn’t suggested to a sincere applicant that he consider an O.Praem foundation elsewhere, at least for formation.

But of course maybe I’m simply missing something here.

 

[Msecc27]

I may or may not have additional comments to make at a later time, but the highlighted portion in the above quote intrigues me. The question that comes to mind is, very simply, why are they not accepting novices? Are they already so full that they’re bulging at the seams? Or are they so bereft of new blood that they plan to close-up shop? Or is it the case that they just don’t have the facilities to accommodate formation? Whichever way, I’d be rather surprised if the superior hadn’t suggested to a sincere applicant that he consider an O.Praem foundation elsewhere, at least for formation.

But of course maybe I’m simply missing something here.

Their not accepting novices, because they want the Norbertine Order to disappear from Ireland really, at least two of the priests of the abbey have been convincted of sexual abuse of minors. The former principal of the abbey’s secondary school and Brendan Smyth Ireland’s most notorious child-abusing priest, who also abused children in Northern Ireland and the USA. The Order have sold the abbey to pay legal fees and compensation for the victims, they live in a property (guesthouse?) adjacent to the abbey. Theres only 6 canons left and there all over 70 apart from the abbot who is in his late 60’s. So they don’t really have the facilities for formation, bereft of vocations and basically want the shame of the Norbertine Order in Ireland to die with them.

 

[malphono]

Their not accepting novices, because they want the Norbertine Order to disappear from Ireland really, … So they don’t really have the facilities for formation, bereft of vocations and basically want the shame of the Norbertine Order in Ireland to die with them.

I see. Well, in that case they probably should simply dissolve the abbey and go elsewhere, but that’s their business not mine. Anyway, you could always look into the ICRSS, although I don’t know whether they have a presence in Ireland or not.

 

[Msecc27]

I see. Well, in that case they probably should simply dissolve the abbey and go elsewhere, but that’s their business not mine. Anyway, you could always look into the ICRSS, although I don’t know whether they have a presence in Ireland or not.

Its unfortunate that one evil man has brought down one of the greatest Orders in the Church, in Ireland.

The ICRSS has recently started in Ireland in one of the city’s so that is good news in a country that is almost barren of the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite.

 

[malphono]

The ICRSS has recently started in Ireland in one of the city’s so that is good news in a country that is almost barren of the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite.

Of course formation will be elsewhere, and in French, but I suppose there’s no guarantee that, if you went through, you end up back in Ireland In the end, though, there’d be no harm in giving it what we used to call a “look see” and see what happens. Anyway, good luck in whatever you choose to do.

 

[R_C]

There are several religious orders that are based not on the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite, but on the liturgical traditions of the Church prior to the post-Vatican II liturgical reform. Examples include the Canons Regular of St. John Cantius, who form and train men to be priests and brothers who will learn to offer the Latin Liturgical Rite in both the Tridentine and Missa Normativa form, in order to help Catholics rediscover a profound sense of the sacred through solemn liturgies, devotions, sacred art, sacred music, as well as instruction in Church heritage, catechetics, and Catholic culture.

To found a new religious community is a vocation that cannot come from ourselves, so we have to be very cautious. It may however be a reflection of an inner vocation that you may want to explore. Near you there is the Institute of Christ the King and FSSP. The Canons of St. John Cantius are a bit farther away.

From your words, you may want to contact these communities to learn more. You may be at the very beginning of your process of discernment, still mixing God’s will with your own will. That’s quite normal. Don’t let others discourage you, nor look only for those who tell you what you want to hear. If this is what God asks of you, it will be done by His grace. Do reach out to those groups.

One piece of advice coming from one who serves both forms of the Roman Rite and who understands your point very well (I am quoting Pope Benedict XVI here, so put down those rocks, friends): do not allow *banality *in the liturgy to make you forget the wondrous miracle taking place, the Transubstantiation of the Sacred Species, the real presence of our Lord. It may be that much of what has been experienced constitutes a trial to test our faith in the authority of priests and in the real presence of our Lord in the Eucharist. If you can attend the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite and “lift up your heart” regardless of what may be happening around you, then you will be in the spirit of humility that does not just “not want what the Lord does not want”, but which flies high and “does not want” - whatever the Lord allows is accepted and welcomed, even if it is against His will. No matter how richly or poorly exercised this authority may be, a priest of Christ still has authority to consecrate the Eucharist and to absolve us from our sins, and that is a wonder even to the angels. Keep that in your heart and let the Lord make use of you as he wills - perhaps as an instrument in restoring the sacred and bringing our sacred heritage to the land of s. Patrick.

 

[Thomas_Casey]

MODERATOR NOTE

I just cleaned this thread up of scandalous gossip. TC Forum is not the place for this.

 

[Msecc27]

MODERATOR NOTE

I just cleaned this thread up of scandalous gossip. TC Forum is not the place for this.

With all due respect to the Moderator, I was answering a question asked to me, the answer I gave was one which, was paraphrased by the late abbot of the monastery Abbot Gerard Cusack, who died only last March after a brief illness, who emailed me several weeks before he died. The abbot stated they were no longer accepting novices, due to troubles that the Order is experiencing; financially and with their reputation in Ireland. This was echoed by the Abbot in an interview he gave in Advent 2012 which he stated the abbey could not support any new novices due to their financial legal woes and because their reputation has tarnished and utterly destroy in Ireland.

The abbot also makes reference to the phrase “Ars moriendi” - the Art of Dying. Followed by the Abbot saying the Order should be allowed ‘‘to die gracefully’’.

This is not idle gossip but the words of the recently deceased abbot. Nor is it idle gossip to speak of how the Catholic Church in Ireland, as shown with the case of the Norbertine Order, is literally collapsing in this country due to child abuse. We can not hide from the past crimes, of child abuse, committed by a minority in the Church and in no way do I find it scandalous gossip. If it is tried to be hidden, who’s to say it won’t happen again? From cover-ups in the 60’s-80’s we saw abuse only got worse so why is it being hidden on the thread and post on it being deleted?

 

[AdvocatusVerbum]

The EF has in a way enhanced my love for the OF… or at least the need for it’s more strict observance. I would very much like to be in an OF done in Latin with a proper choir and chant instead of the more… contemporary musicians.

If I can assist in the formation of a group of dedicated and interest lay and convince my pastor to do a regular EF, I would attend that regularly but I love my parish too much to ever forsake it, though I will likely follow my regular parish mass with an EF as I’m able. Hopefully once a month or so.

 

[LiturgicalChant]

Msecc27, I have sent you a private message. Please let me know if it helped.

 

[Aramis]

I would urge you to consider that the calling to serve may require giving up much.

Consider the Dominican Friars - while they do not routinely use the EF, they have their own, older, form of the Mass, and some priories make more use of it than others. (The Western Dominican Province of the US makes extensive use of the Dominican Rite.)

I urge you to consider going where you are needed, not where you are comfortable.

No matter what, should you enter the priesthood, you become the Bishop’s or Abbot’s man. You go where they send you. And that may even be across the world.