Fort Carson troops will soon deploy, 'supporting Ukraine'

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The west has not driven a single inch into Russia. The foreign countries Russia conquered have largely escaped Russian dominion. Should Poles be considered the rightful property of Russia? I should think not.

One might as well put up a map of the Roman Empire at its height and blame today’s Germans for reducing Rome so pitifully to ruling only the Italian peninsula. Mussolini, as we know, gave re-establishing a Roman Empire a try. But the attempt was resisted by Frenchmen, Croats, Serbs, Greeks and others who did not care to be ruled by an Italian despot.

In like manner, Poles, Czechs, Ukrainians and others do not want to be ruled by a Russian despot.
It appears there has been a bit of a concerted effort to post propaganda on the web. Worth reading:

theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/08/the-kremlins-troll-army/375932/

buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/documents-show-how-russias-troll-army-hit-america
Plans attached to emails leaked by a mysterious Russian hacker collective show IT managers reporting on a new ideological front against the West in the comments sections of Fox News, Huffington Post, The Blaze, Politico, and WorldNetDaily.
 
Maybe Russia didn’t want western liberalism, maybe they felt they had a right like the US to be a major player in the world, many Russians didn’t want to become irrelevant in the world stage by being a tier 2 nation without real friends in the European family of nations looking on as new outsiders.

Germany has influence but they are in a way different situation from Russia. For one they are situated comfy in central Europe, they don’t have Chechen muslim extremists plotting revolutions. But Russia isn’t unique in military force being a tool. I’m sure you know this but doesn’t the US spend more then Russia and China combined on military spending. Are Mexico and Canada that dangerous of foes to have bordering you or maybe they use that military for other things than mutual interests.

Japan only operates with the US’s blessing. Don’t they still severely limit what japan is allowed to do with their military. They aren’t really an independent nation. So is Germany isn’t it, don’t they still have post ww2 military restrictions?

Every time you say the UN, international community, all Russia sees is the West condemns and they really don’t care about it. Nobody did anything to pay back the serbs and nobody sane is going to do anything about Crimea, its over on that front.

You can ask that same question of Libya or Egypt . Why would an anti-extremist autocrat want to get close to the west when they just turn there back and let you get killed or deposed. If ghadaffi actually went after nuclear weapons instead of being buddy buddy with the west he might still be alive today. What kind of message does that send" What about the US’s favoritism or devotion of their Golden goose Israel. They can get away with bloodbaths of civilians because they are the chosen allies with special treatment. What kind of message does that kind of unfairness send. The only reason China, Russia, and Iran even get along in the first place is because they know how ruthless the west is so they figure they have to stick together or else.
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Too much for one post here, so forgive me for shortening your post to deal with a small part of it. Let me first comment that “the west” doesn’t operate Gulags the way China, Russia and Iran do. They don’t fear the west for “ruthlessness”. They know better than that. The oppose the west together because they’re all ruthless dictatorships that could not survive democratization of their countries.

But let’s look at Russia’s “transition” after the Soviet era. Russia was utterly broke. The reasons are easy to understand, but I won’t linger on them here. The Soviet state owned a lot of enterprises; some worthless, some valuable, though communism made it unclear which was which. Yeltsin, who had been a communist appratchik himself and could, for that reason, perhaps be forgiven for not knowing a good deal from a bad one economically, formed corporate owners of those enterprises and distributed the shares to the people. Some, of course were worthless, and the craftier fellows bought up the shares of the good ones; sometimes at a tiny fraction of their real value and sometimes out of bullying. Russians, not being used to any of that, got largely suckered and few gained anything. I don’t know what Putin had on Yeltsin, who had health (and drinking) problems anyway, and traded immunity from prosecution (and perhaps assassination) for leadership. Putin then proceeded to persecute and prosecute some of those earlier capitalists, distributing the best assets among himself and his major supporters; a pattern he will surely follow in Ukraine.

So, was the Russian economy doomed when Communism fell, just as it was when Communists took over? Well, it seems likely. After all, “West Germany” has spent billions upon billions of dollars rehabilitating “East Germany”, and those people were Germans, after all, the “best off” in the entire communist world. (never mind that the Trabant was a piece of junk, at least it ran and fairly ordinary people owned them.)

So, but for the brief, abortive Yeltsin interlude, Russia went from being an economy in which the ruling bigwigs got everything worth having, to one in which the ruling bigwigs get everything worth having; from a commodity-based economy to a commodity-based economy.

Could it have been better? Absolutely. But as the integration of eastern Germany into a whole Germany was, and is, tough, integration of Russia into a modern economy would have been tougher. Would it have been worth it? Well, the Poles, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, Czechs, Hungarians and others seem to think so, even though the transition is still difficult for them.

But it has to be admitted that the Poles, Lithuanians, Latvians, etc had memories of better times, more freedom and being part of Europe. The Russians, having been enslaved in 1917, (and for many, longer ago than that) no longer did. What Pole does NOT know what it’s like in Germany and has at least some inkling how it works? What Russian DOES know? Does no one recall that, for example, Stalin killed or imprisoned ordinary Soviet soldiers who had seen “too much” of Germany?

Could the west have played a better part in the rehabilitation of Russia at a crucial point? I think it could have. One minor example. At a point in Clinton’s administration, meat was almost nonexistent in Russia and Russian nutrition was really bad. At the very same time there was a glut of dark poultry meat in the U.S. (Because Americans prefer white meat, and the dark meat is hard to get rid of) The U.S. government could have bought up immense quantities of the dark meat and sent it to Russia for resale at next to nothing. But the U.S. government didn’t do it, despite the fact that some of the poultry processors were begging him to do it. Why he didn’t see that, and a lot of other things, I’ll never know.

So, do the Russians remember that? Maybe they do. But that’s still not a good enough explanation for the fact that Russia is now a thug state. After all, Poles weren’t any better off at the time. Poland might have been even worse off because it had been so thoroughly looted by Russia. Neither Russia nor Poland could afford to even send the Russian occupation forces back to Russia. The U.S. did pay for that.

Poland. Russia. Why is there a difference, and why is that difference attractive to the overwhelming majority of Ukrainians? I realize this seems simplistic and in some ways is simplistic, but a big part of it, I think, is that the Russians just don’t know how. Despite some small amount of westernization prior to 1917, Russia has never known what it is to truly be “European”. Russians have never known what it is to NOT be ruled by a despotic regime that owns or controls everything, whereas Eastern Europeans alive today remember what it was like before Russian occupation; when they were consciously and willingly part of Europe, not unwilling parts of Asia.

Poor Ukraine is “neither fish nor fowl”. It does not want to be part of a Russia whose rulers have never been anything but despots and Russian ethnocentrists, but has trouble understanding exactly how to become integrated into a Europe that, by comparison to the Russia they know and have known, must seem like a miracle. And, in terms of human rights and economics, Europe truly is a miracle, compared to what they have known of rule by Russia. One should not blame them for that, and certainly not for the sake of a despotic, threadbare, would-be empire.
Please qualify/quantify how the EU will be a miracle and much, much better than Ukraine’s relationship (not ruled by) with Russia.
 
Please qualify/quantify how the EU will be a miracle and much, much better than Ukraine’s relationship (not ruled by) with Russia.
Ukraine needs only to look at the results in the former Soviet Republics that have gone west to make a decision on wheter to go in the EU direction or not. It is the Ukrainian peoples decision to make, not Putins. The recent elections have re-confirmed the wishes of the Ukrainian people to move in a western direction. The past results of maintaining the status quo, that is keeping stronger economic ties to Russia since independence in the 90’s has not panned out well. If they want to go in a new direction, they have that right. Putin seems to think Ukraine should be his vassal state and will kill to make it so.
 
But you forget that Russia is attempting to protect the ethnic Russian speakers of the Donbas. Kiev/Washington have seen to it that neo-Nazis from all over Europe are aiding with the litany of Ukrainian atrocities against the east. This is what is meant by, “Revenge on Russia.”
If Putin was “protecting” the Russian speakers (the majority of whom want to remain part of Ukraine, by the way) one would think he would treat his own people better. I’m not buying that one.

And the patron of the neo-fascists in Europe is Putin, not “Kiev/Washington”. Birds of a feather.
 
Please qualify/quantify how the EU will be a miracle and much, much better than Ukraine’s relationship (not ruled by) with Russia.
Or maybe they could look to Greece, Spain, etc.

Of course it’s the Ukrainians’ decision to make, but not the point of the query, which was in relation to the EU being miraculously’ a better option - quantify/qualify it. Currently Ukraine has an unpaid $3 billion gas bill to pay, any loans through the IMF to repay this will cause even greater austerity.

A major reason behind people, voting to belong to the EU, from various countries, is to be able to leave their countries to find work in more prosperous EU countries.
 
Please qualify/quantify how the EU will be a miracle and much, much better than Ukraine’s relationship (not ruled by) with Russia.
If a Ukrainian so much as traveled around the French countryside (let alone that of Germany) and then traveled around the Russian countryside, France would seem a miracle by comparison, notwithstanding that the French economy isn’t everything it ought to be.

What would that Ukrainian think of the Netherlands, Denmark, Norway by comparison with Russia?

Does Ukraine have a long way to go from the ruination visited on it by 70 years of Russian misrule? It sure does. But at least there is hope in looking to the west if one is Ukrainian. To the east, there’s nothing to which to aspire, and quite a bit to fear.
 
Or maybe they could look to Greece, Spain, etc.

Of course it’s the Ukrainians’ decision to make, but not the point of the query, which was in relation to the EU being miraculously’ a better option - quantify/qualify it. Currently Ukraine has an unpaid $3 billion gas bill to pay, any loans through the IMF to repay this will cause even greater austerity.

A major reason behind people, voting to belong to the EU, from various countries, is to be able to leave their countries to find work in more prosperous EU countries.
Sure, and if I was a Ukrainian with no job, that’s exactly what I would be wanting to do too. As to quantifying differences, all one has to do is compare the GDP/capita of EU countries to that of Russia in order to see a major difference. But even doing that doesn’t quantify how a handful of Putinist oligarchs own everything worth owning. What’s Putin’s personal fortune now? Isn’t the latest estimate $40 billion?
 
Sure, and if I was a Ukrainian with no job, that’s exactly what I would be wanting to do too. As to quantifying differences, all one has to do is compare the GDP/capita of EU countries to that of Russia in order to see a major difference. But even doing that doesn’t quantify how a handful of Putinist oligarchs own everything worth owning. What’s Putin’s personal fortune now? Isn’t the latest estimate $40 billion?
Precisely, all the educated young people leave their bankrupt countries, no further development within the host country, ageing populations, big debts to repay and increasing, ongoing austerity.

Who estimated Putin’s wealth? I must say he’s having a great time enjoying himself spending it all and living it up. :rolleyes:
 
But you forget that Russia is attempting to protect the ethnic Russian speakers of the Donbas. Kiev/Washington have seen to it that neo-Nazis from all over Europe are aiding with the litany of Ukrainian atrocities against the east. This is what is meant by, “Revenge on Russia.”
Really? Falling for the “no, really we’re here to help” routine from invaders?

:rotfl:
 
What kind of message does that send" What about the US’s favoritism or devotion of their Golden goose Israel. They can get away with bloodbaths of civilians because they are the chosen allies with special treatment. What kind of message does that kind of unfairness send.
That’s a bunch of hogwash and EU propaganda. Many Western Europeans are scared to death of offending conservative, non-Caucasian Muslim males. That’s a big reason why the criticize Israel, the only democracy in the entire Middle East, who opposes cultures and nations that would make Sein Finn and the English Defense League blush. The angry hordes of Muslims who want sharia law are the ones killing scores of civilians, and they are using their own civilians as shields to fit the largely false EU narrative.

Funny how Muslim radicals get free passes from Europeans who insist that progressive values are right.

Also, if anyone were to ask some of the Arabs in Israel, they would say they don’t want Muslim rule.
 
Precisely, all the educated young people leave their bankrupt countries, no further development within the host country, ageing populations, big debts to repay and increasing, ongoing austerity.
Not necessarily. A long time ago I did some H1A and H1B work for healthcare providers, bringing in healthcare professionals of various sorts. True, some were from places like the Philippines and South Africa, but some were from Canada and Australia. To my understanding, the latter two were simply here for the bigger pay and for the adventure and were going to return. The Filipinos all wanted to eventually become citizens of the U.S., as did the South Africans.

Irrelevantly but perhaps interestingly, the one failure I had was in enticing Irish physiotherapists. They could make so much money in England at the time that you just couldn’t get them to do it for what American healthcare organizations were willing to pay. And, too, they were just a short way from Ireland if they worked in England.

Of perhaps further interest, while I had no problem potentially recruiting people from the former Eastern Bloc, their medical educations were so inferior that they couldn’t establish equivalency and I couldn’t get them to actually qualify for licensure. Even in the Philippines, two universities did qualify for equivalency. Perhaps educations are better in the former Eastern Bloc countries now. I don’t know.

Let me add this. Of the young male illegals I know, most intend to return to their home countries and probably will. A big part of that is the currency differential. A dollar in, say, Guatemala, is “worth” a whole lot more than a dollar here. A LOT of them live sparingly here and invest in farm land or businesses in the home country, to which they eventually return. It’s a way of “getting ahead” of the Joneses in the home country.
 
Not necessarily. A long time ago I did some H1A and H1B work for healthcare providers, bringing in healthcare professionals of various sorts. True, some were from places like the Philippines and South Africa, but some were from Canada and Australia. To my understanding, the latter two were simply here for the bigger pay and for the adventure and were going to return. The Filipinos all wanted to eventually become citizens of the U.S., as did the South Africans.

Irrelevantly but perhaps interestingly, the one failure I had was in enticing Irish physiotherapists. They could make so much money in England at the time that you just couldn’t get them to do it for what American healthcare organizations were willing to pay. And, too, they were just a short way from Ireland if they worked in England.

Of perhaps further interest, while I had no problem potentially recruiting people from the former Eastern Bloc, their medical educations were so inferior that they couldn’t establish equivalency and I couldn’t get them to actually qualify for licensure. Even in the Philippines, two universities did qualify for equivalency. Perhaps educations are better in the former Eastern Bloc countries now. I don’t know.

Let me add this. Of the young male illegals I know, most intend to return to their home countries and probably will. A big part of that is the currency differential. A dollar in, say, Guatemala, is “worth” a whole lot more than a dollar here. A LOT of them live sparingly here and invest in farm land or businesses in the home country, to which they eventually return. It’s a way of “getting ahead” of the Joneses in the home country.
To address education, I’ve worked within that area and have come across numerous education systems, East and West. The system that impressed me the most, was the Russian education system which is a superb pedagogical model that was/is very exacting - that was in 1996. I did not come across other eastern bloc countries’ educational systems, possibly they should get advice from and follow the Russian model.

However educational systems, in some Western countries, were extremely poor.

They ‘intend’ to go home to their own countries, unfortunately most don’t because they make a life for themselves overseas and eventually cannot due to marriage and family ties and/or having children resident in the country they are living in, not wishing to leave their lifestyles and/or no prospects/money if they return etc…
 
Vostok battalion which includes many Chechens are fighting among the separatists in Ukraine.

Many fighting in ISIS may well be from Russia’s middle Volga and Northern Caucuses as well.

Some Cesium 137 material may have gone missing in Kazakhstan as well. So it is a situation to watch.
 
To address education, I’ve worked within that area and have come across numerous education systems, East and West. The system that impressed me the most, was the Russian education system which is a superb pedagogical model that was/is very exacting - that was in 1996. I did not come across other eastern bloc countries’ educational systems, possibly they should get advice from and follow the Russian model.

However educational systems, in some Western countries, were extremely poor.

They ‘intend’ to go home to their own countries, unfortunately most don’t because they make a life for themselves overseas and eventually cannot due to marriage and family ties and/or having children resident in the country they are living in, not wishing to leave their lifestyles and/or no prospects/money if they return etc…
Quite possibly Eastern Bloc education was very good in some ways; just not in medical education. Of course, in a country the size of Russia, one would expect some good ones and some really bad ones. Somebody, after all, treated the party bigwigs, and I imagine they expected the best.

Educational systems in western European countries always qualified, to the extent I dealt with them.

I would not say “most don’t” return to their home countries when it comes to young male illegals, any more than I would say “most do”. It might be a changeable thing. But I do know this; if a young illegal worker here has a good enough forged ID to get even a decent paying industrial job (which is what most I know do) they are very significantly rewarded if they return to their home country because of the currency differences. If they save their money (which most of the young ones do) they can be “rich” locally at home, whereas they aren’t here and likely won’t ever be.

Most of the young males I know do not marry here, and most are not married at all. However, their entire family structure is in the home country. This country is less alien to, say, a northern Mexican, but it’s pretty alien to a back-country Guatemalan who doesn’t even speak Spanish. To me, it’s analogous to an American oilfield worker who goes to, say, Dubai for a few years to make the “big bucks”. He doesn’t want to live forever in Dubai, but wants to come home “rich” compared to his peers in this country.
 
Quite possibly Eastern Bloc education was very good in some ways; just not in medical education. Of course, in a country the size of Russia, one would expect some good ones and some really bad ones. Somebody, after all, treated the party bigwigs, and I imagine they expected the best.

Educational systems in western European countries always qualified, to the extent I dealt with them.

I would not say “most don’t” return to their home countries when it comes to young male illegals, any more than I would say “most do”. It might be a changeable thing. But I do know this; if a young illegal worker here has a good enough forged ID to get even a decent paying industrial job (which is what most I know do) they are very significantly rewarded if they return to their home country because of the currency differences. If they save their money (which most of the young ones do) they can be “rich” locally at home, whereas they aren’t here and likely won’t ever be.

Most of the young males I know do not marry here, and most are not married at all. However, their entire family structure is in the home country. This country is less alien to, say, a northern Mexican, but it’s pretty alien to a back-country Guatemalan who doesn’t even speak Spanish. To me, it’s analogous to an American oilfield worker who goes to, say, Dubai for a few years to make the “big bucks”. He doesn’t want to live forever in Dubai, but wants to come home “rich” compared to his peers in this country.
However, the Ukrainians would not be illegal as they will be members of the EU and will be able to work in other and more prosperous EU countries, hence less likely, as per the reasons given earlier, to return home.
 
However, the Ukrainians would not be illegal as they will be members of the EU and will be able to work in other and more prosperous EU countries, hence less likely, as per the reasons given earlier, to return home.
Maybe, but hard to know. If Ukraine is allowed by Russia to build up and prosper, it’s entirely possible, even likely, that Ukrainians who worked for a time in, say, Germany, might well return to Ukraine. There are lots of Eastern Europeans working in western Europe right now. Nobody yet knows whether they will eventually return. I’m guessing most will.
 
Maybe, but hard to know. If Ukraine is allowed by Russia to build up and prosper, it’s entirely possible, even likely, that Ukrainians who worked for a time in, say, Germany, might well return to Ukraine. There are lots of Eastern Europeans working in western Europe right now. Nobody yet knows whether they will eventually return. I’m guessing most will.
That was my original point, they will have nothing to return to. The ‘bailouts’ from the IMF/EU, etc… cripple economies for years along with austerity measures and as Ukraine is very much in debt, who knows how long it will be to get in its’ feet.

We’ve had years of it here and laughably our unemployment figures, now around 10%, are looking better because most of the unemployed have left Ireland! 😦

Another example being Spain, their youth unemployment is currently 54%!

That’s not negating the fact that Ireland got a real boost up the ladder when it first joined the EU, it seems to have been a good move at the time. However those days may now be long gone, never to return, possibly due to too many poorer EU member states and also the current global financial collapse.
 
That was my original point, they will have nothing to return to. The ‘bailouts’ from the IMF/EU, etc… cripple economies for years along with austerity measures and as Ukraine is very much in debt, who knows how long it will be to get in its’ feet.

We’ve had years of it here and laughably our unemployment figures, now around 10%, are looking better because most of the unemployed have left Ireland! 😦

Another example being Spain, their youth unemployment is currently 54%!

That’s not negating the fact that Ireland got a real boost up the ladder when it first joined the EU, it seems to have been a good move at the time. However those days may now be long gone, never to return, possibly due to too many poorer EU member states and also the current global financial collapse.
I am sure this will sound jingoistic to you, though it is not intended to be. It is sometimes said that when the U.S. economy catches cold, the rest of the world gets pneumonia. Like it or not, the U.S. economy is 25% of the word economy. What I’m afraid a lot of people, in the U.S. as elsewhere, don’t realize (or don’t accept) is that the U.S. economy is in a “mini depression”, and will likely remain so and perhaps get worse the longer the current administration is in power. Obama and his progressives promised to “fundamentally transform” the U.S. and while more and more people are beginning to realize what that really meant, not enough realized it in 2012. Obama has two years now in which to shove the economy into a deeper hole pursuing the “social revolution” dream. Whether he succeeds or not and whether he makes it irreversible or not, remains to be seen.

Why a “mini depression”? Why do I say that? Well, during the depression of the 1930s there were periods during which U.S. unemployment and the market were no worse than right now. What changed was that the expectations were lowered so that few invested for the future, distrusting it. Things will not get truly better in the U.S. until another government decides that full employment is necessary to prosperity generally, and that, while government can’t do a whole lot to improve employment, some government policies mightily discourage it.

Does it sound like I’m blaming the recessionary condition in Europe on the U.S.? Well, I guess in a sense I am. The voters in this country opted for a fantasy that has turned out to be a nagging nightmare not only for us, but for the rest of the world.
 
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