Fortification and purity

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Life seems unfair from our limited point of view.
Very well said, and we all feel unfairly treated at some point. Life is what it is and we won’t see the why’s of it all, nor should we, until we’re done with the human experience. Ultimately it will all make perfect sense. We each have a cross to bear, some more than one. We aren’t in heaven yet and really shouldn’t expect anything else. Blessings to you. 🙂
 
maybe they weren’t alcoholics
That’s exactly it. It is sometimes difficult to tell the difference from outside between someone with a temporary drinking problem and an alcoholic, but it is part of the definition.
 
  1. The Magisterium defined sodomy in immodest detail in Denz. 3634 as “sodomistic intercourse.” This directly contradicts theologians that claim no malice comes from the type of intercourse (the manner of stimulation) and that the only inherently non procreative act is pollution (spilling the seed). Given that sodomistic intercourse is defined explicitly as the thing that is against nature on the part of both participants, malice must come from that which is specifically stated in the decree as being against nature, the sodomistic intercourse. Thus, the Holy See demonstrates in Denz. 3634 that unnatural modes of copulation exist. Finally, if malice comes from an act when performed to completion, then that malice remains regardless of how long you perform the act: fornication is still intrinsically evil even if you do not finish the act and so too sodomy is intrinsically evil regardless of whether you finish the act. No action that is intrinsically evil only becomes intrinsically evil upon the actor successfully completing the act.
  2. Denz 2044 condemns that sodomy can be confessed as a mere pollution, implying that there must be additional malice to sodomy beyond just spilling the seed. This directly contradicts the “one rule,” which says that spilling the seed is the only inherently non-procreative act. Also, married couples can commit the Crime of the Sodomites (Denz 3634). If the only malice came from spilling the seed, then it would be non-sensical for the Holy See to create a meaningless, extraneous category and classify/ define acts based on how exactly the seed was spilled in the first place (via “sodomistic intercourse” in Denz 3634). Since all non-procreative acts would have the same malice if the only malice was spilling the seed, (1) how the seed is spilled is utterly irrelevant (2) all acts should be classified as “masturbatory.” In sum, heterosexuals can commit sodomy (Denz 3634) and the malice is more than pollution (Denz 2044). Finally, the footnotes in Denz 2044 demonstrate that the Holy See was affirming St. Thomas’s classification of unnatural acts into the four kinds that our Tradition developed. St. Thomas did not classify acts according to the wicked “one rule.”
  3. Even if unnatural acts do not exist, Doctors of the Church classified these acts as proximate occasion of pollution. Also, the Holy See in Denz 3907 confirms that amplexus reservatus, stopping the marital act early, contradictions the moral law. Tradition has declared amplexus reservatus to be sinful for two reasons: female pollution and danger of male pollution. The Holy See definitely did not have female pollution in mind when condemning these acts, since by 1950 everyone understood that the female seed is not necessary for procreation. Therefore, given the Holy See follows Tradition, this decree draws the “lines”: any act as or more likely to result in male pollution as amplexus reservatus, like unnatural acts, are automatically danger of pollution, if not proximate danger.
  4. Doctors St. Alphonsus, St. Peter Damian, St. Thomas, and St. Augustine categorically condemn unnatural acts. There are no Doctors whatsoever on the other side.
 
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  1. If you never want a single adultery throughout your marriage, then why not be consistent and avoid spilling the seed throughout the entirety of your marriage (in exactly the same way)? Given spilling the seed is worse than adultery, the Holy See in Denz 3638 calls it morally equivalent to attacking your wife, then you also do not want a single mortal sin of pollution throughout your marriage. Therefore, given acts that are the most pleasurable are most likely to spill the seed, unnatural acts are undoubtedly proximate occasion of pollution. It is not the intention of the actor that determines the nature of an act. Knowingly willing an act that by its nature has a substantial chance from time to time of spilling the seed is proximate occasion of pollution, period!
  2. If you do not know if an act is a Crime that Cries Out To Heaven For Vengeance would you do it? Obviously not!
 
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  1. Yes, fornication is a mortal sin.
  2. Contraception adds an additional mortal sin, even when used outside of marriage. It is possible for two mortal sins to be “less evil” than one mortal if the one mortal sin has sufficiently severe consequences. Note that unintended pregnancies are bad consequences, but are not grave consequences (life and death, starvation, adultery, etc).
What is “less evil,” fornication without contraception or fornication with contraception? The answer is black and white with (1) direct contraception via the Crime of Onan and (2) no life threatening disease transmission. Then given the malice of Onan is morally equivalent to a man attacking his wife, therefore, fornication without a condom (which has the risk of pregnancy) is undoubtedly “less evil” than fornication with a condom.

Changing the hypothetical to HIV transmission, Pope Benedict XVI thinks that condom use is never a real or moral solution. Using a condom means committing two intrinsically evil sins, not just one. However, while Pope Benedict XVI does think that there is an extra sin with a condom, he said it may be a step in the right direction, “less evil,” to use one than to not use one. (Less evil does not mean a lesser of two evils, which only applies to situations where the act is not intrinsically evil).

The answer of whether condoms are “less evil” with potential HIV transmission depends upon whether the positive of reducing the risk of HIV offsets the negative malice that comes from the moral object, which is so great that it makes the act morally equivalent of an attack. In Africa, where HIV can be a death sentence, condoms are likely “less evil”: reducing the risk of death is a greater positive than the negative of the means to achieve that, which is morally equivalent to an attack. But although it is “less evil,” it is still evil. (It is not a “lesser evil,” in which case the act is in itself moral and potentially justifiable for a grave reason). Intrinsically evil acts are never justified by consequence or intention!

If technology advances to the point that it can substantially and affordably improve HIV symptoms, then the grave consequences of HIV transmission will no longer have the same gravity that it currently does. Therefore, fornication with a condom would be a greater evil, since the consequences of an unintended pregnancy, while bad, are not grave (starvation, losing your house, adultery, severe harm to children) required to offset the moral equivalent of an attack (from the moral object of condom use).

Does the same analysis that applies to Onan apply to other forms of contraception? This requires more Magisterial clarification. For an act that is not contraception, but just avoiding pregnancy, the most probable opinion is that serious reasons are sufficient to morally practice NFP (and not grave), However, the totally different hypothetical, fornication with or without direct contraception, could be very different. It might be true, it might not be true, that the malice of direct hormonal contraception combined with fornication only requires serious (and not grave) offsetting circumstances to be “less evil.”
 
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It’s not true when you say homosexuals are not experiencing joy and that’s why they sleep around and days. My sister is gay, and she has been with same girl for years, not sleeping/dating around. It’s not just sexual. Emotional attachment is stronger
 
Why does he deserve to be denied those things due to attractions that were placed in him through no fault of his own?
Should anyone ever be denied satisfaction of their desires? Or counseled accordingly?
 
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I was taught that a married couple can do anything as long as it is agreeable to both parties and that the completion occurred in the vagina. It also makes sense to me. I have heard some very conservative Catholics say it is wrong and I don’t agree with them!
 
This is an incoherent position. Here is an example.

“Someone can shoot a bullet into the trees if they think a human might be there, as long as no human gets shot at the end of the day.”
It is not whether the evil effect occurs (someone dies) that makes murder into murder. Rather, willing an act that has the inherent potential from time to time to result in someone’s death is danger or proximate danger of murder.

“Someone can sleep in the same bed before they get married, as long as nothing sexual happens.”
It is not the effect, “nothing sexual happened,” that forms the object, but rather: did you will an act that by its nature, from time to time, could have resulted in fornication? Regardless of whether you get lucky and nothing happened this particular time, willing an act that could, even from time time, result in fornication, is at least danger if not proximate danger of fornication.

Near occasion of sin is not an after the fact evaluation, did the evil effect happen (“as long as the seed is not spilled”) but rather is asking: is this act inherently ordered towards danger of sin, regardless of whether someone gets lucky and does not sin this particular time.

And just like we do not want a single adultery throughout the entirety of marriage (acts that result in adultery from time to time are considered danger/ proximate danger of adultery), then so too, we do not want a single pollution throughout the entirety of marriage. Therefore, since acts that are most pleasurable are most likely to result in spilling the seed, they are intrinsically evil proximate danger of pollution. We must be consistent and recognize that acts with the highest chance of spilling the seed, precisely because of this moderate chance from time to time of spilling the seed, is too many times. And most importantly, a moderate chance from time to time is definitely proximate, just like those same acts with similar chances of adultery or fornication would be labeled danger or proximate danger. Therefore, unnatural acts are definitely inherently proximate danger of pollution! The Doctors and Magisterium agree with this position!
 
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Lust is sinful in both thought and action as it is contrary to either the sixth or ninth commandments.

Catechism of the Catholic Church
2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.

2345 Chastity is a moral virtue. It is also a gift from God, a grace , a fruit of spiritual effort.132 The Holy Spirit enables one whom the water of Baptism has regenerated to imitate the purity of Christ.133

2396 Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity are masturbation, fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices.

2350 Those who are engaged to marry are called to live chastity in continence. …

2399 The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception).

2400 Adultery, divorce, polygamy, and free union are grave offenses against the dignity of marriage.

2521 Purity requires modesty , an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.

2528 “Everyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart” ( Mt 5:28).

2529 The ninth commandment warns against lust or carnal concupiscence.
1 Cor 6
9 Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, 10 Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.
 
I agree that a person has to know their limits. For some what you say may be valid. However, that is not a rule for everyone.
 
I can assure you being married 55 years that I never sinned lustfully with my wife and the act was always completed naturally. With all do respect to the priest he obviously has not been married. Like I said in another message the man needs to know his limits. For some men, I dispose oral sex would be sinful but not for all. I am speaking from experience not theory!
 
No, proximate danger of pollution is never justified for any individual!

Is sleeping in the same bed before marriage okay for some individuals and not for others? No, it is immoral for everyone, because nobody knows whether they will be the rare exception where nothing bad happens! And just because it has not happened so far does not imply it will not happen in the future. That is why it is still proximate danger even if nothing bad has happened so far!

The Magisterium declares in Denz 3907 that amplexus reservatus, stopping the marital act early, contradicts the moral law. The Magisterium did not make exceptions on a case by case basis for stopping the marital act early: it is danger of pollution for everyone. Therefore, acts that are even more likely to spill the seed than stopping the marital act, must at least be danger of pollution, if not proximate danger.

Secondly, there is no principled basis for knowing whether a specific individual is the rare exception to the rule. Just because you did not fail in the previous 5 years does not mean you will not fail in the next 5 years. One adultery is too many failures. One sin of pollution is too many!
 
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This is very wicked. It you repeated your 55 year marriage many times, you could very well fail in your next repeat marriage!

Acts are proximate occasion of pollution by their nature, not because you got lucky and nothing bad happened in your marriage!

It is the moral object that is inherently non-procreative!
 
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For unmarried couples I agree sleeping in the same bed is sinful. That situation is in no way comparable to a husband and wife participating in oral sex because the husband and wife can properly complete the act. If a man does not have control enough to do that, he should refrain!
 
Let me repeat, if you repeated your 55 year marriage many times, how do you not know whether you would be one of the many people who fails on your next marriage?

There is no way of acquiring the knowledge that you are the rare exception! You can either: (1) Fail, in which case you are not the exception, or (2) Succeed, in which case how do you know you did not just get lucky this particular time?

Just like people who succeed in sleeping in the same bed without failing still commit proximate danger of sin, people who put themselves into proximate danger of spilling the seed sin regardless of whether the evil effect happens or not!

People make the same argument you are making about sleeping in the same bed before marriage: we’ve been doing it many times and nothing bad has happened, we know our limits.

Advising people to put themselves into proximate occasion of sin and attempt to “control” themselves is exceedingly wicked. Let me repeat: regardless of whether you succeed in controlling yourself is not what makes a sin a sin, it is the fact that one willed an act that by its nature was danger of pollution that makes it sinful!

You flee from proximate occasion of mortal sin, you should not put yourself into proximate occasion or mortal sin and then try to control yourself. A man should never put himself into proximate occasion of sin and then declare “nothing bad happened for me” as the justification for why it was not danger of pollution in the first place. This is a very wicked statement.
 
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Are you male? Are you married? How long have you been married?
Your knowledge of the male climax seems wanting.
For most males I know it doesn’t happen without a lot of warning. I repeat if a man does not have that control, they should refrain. It is up for the individual to decide and follow his conscience. Please stop trying to make rules for others!
 
These acts are proximate danger by their very nature, regardless of whether pollution actually occurs. According to St. Alphonsus, it is the nature of these acts that make them proximate danger of pollution, regardless of whether the chances of pollution are small or large for any particular individual, it is still proximate danger for everyone. So even if we determined there was no chance of pollution for a particular individual (how could we know this with any certainty?), every time the couple engaged in these immoral acts as “foreplay”, it would be a material mortal sin each time.

According to St. Alphonsus, even mere oral genital contact in passing (while kissing many areas of the body), is “danger of pollution” (but not proximate danger). According to St. Alphonsus, it would only be justified to make oral genital contact in passing for grave reasons. Therefore, if a husband was going to harm his wife or commit adultery, the acts would only then be excused from sin. However, since healthy marriages should never involve danger of adultery, the reason for making this contact will almost never be grave. Therefore, in reality, it is almost always guaranteed to be a sin to even make oral genital contact in the first place, even in passing.

Even if St. Alphonsus was wrong about intercourse other than sexual intercourse being proximate danger of pollution, would St. Alphonsus really be so wrong that it was no danger at all (while he thought it was proximate danger)? If so, why would Denzinger 2758 from the Holy See call him a “most learned expert” on Onanism, when he was really no expert at all, but had no clue about pollution/ danger thereof? And from the argument above, even if the act was merely “danger of pollution” (not proximate danger), then from this condition alone, it would still essentially never be justified except in grave circumstances like adultery.
7. Up to this point I have only considered spilling the seed. I have not even considered undue modes of coition. Intercourse other than sexual intercourse is also unnatural. Therefore, you commit a most grievous sin by uniting in this way, by performing an unnatural act. Heterosexuals can perform sodomy too. If you do not know, or are greatly uncertain, whether an act is a Crime that Cries Out to Heaven for Vengeance (Catechism 1867), for which an entire city (Sodom), was destroyed for this crime, would you do it? NO!
 
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