Forum Title

[Brad_Haas]

Jo's_Dad:

It is one thing to say “I believe differently than you” and respect the beliefs of others even if you do not agree with them, but to make such sport of completly trashing someone elses beliefs is utterly abhorrant and downright sinful! And it’s not just this thread, but this is the thread that broke the camels back.

Can you show some examples in this forum of making sport of completely trashing someone else’s beliefs?
Jo's_Dad:

I am also beyond sick of the “Mormon’s aren’t Christians” lies that seem to be perpetuated soley on this board. I would say they are far better Christians than some on this board, and your rage against them can only be seen as an act of jealousy; that you would rather trash other good Christian people to make yourself look better by contrast.

I do agree that that’s probably the most worthless question repeatedly brought up in LDS apologetics; however, you can find it elsewhere .
Jo's_Dad:

If the actions of the people on this board are a reflection of the attitudes of the general laity of the Catholic church, I will very seriously have to rethink whether I want to be associated with any church that would openly allow such bigotry and intolerance.

Granting it’s as bad as you make it out to be, do you really think they are a reflection of the entire laity? Do you think if the Church knows about it and openly allows it? And do you really think a group exists whose membership has no such deficiencies?

Remember, these are amateur apologists at best. Over a year ago, in documents I wrote to an LDS acquaintance, I used the phrase “non-Christian” and the word “cult.” I would never do that now; no matter my beliefs, it’s just bad apologetics. Point is, we all have a lot to learn, and internet fora amplify this problem. Be patient.

 

[Jo_s_Dad]

Brad Haas:

Granting it’s as bad as you make it out to be, do you really think they are a reflection of the entire laity? Do you think if the Church knows about it and openly allows it? And do you really think a group exists whose membership has no such deficiencies?

I see your point Brad, and for that I do apologize. One of the personal axioms I hold is to never judge a church by the actions of it’s members, and I guess I just forgot that. I have been on other Catholic boards where they are very dignified and understanding while discussing the apologetics of other Christian congregations.
Brad Haas:

Remember, these are amateur apologists at best. Over a year ago, in documents I wrote to an LDS acquaintance, I used the phrase “non-Christian” and the word “cult.” I would never do that now; no matter my beliefs, it’s just bad apologetics. Point is, we all have a lot to learn, and internet fora amplify this problem. Be patient.

Yes, this is very true indeed.

I was enraged because this is the second time I’ve seen a thread about LDS being changed to LSD (the first has been deleted) and I just lost my temper.

Thank You Brad, you and the Rosary have cleared my head.

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God

God Bless.

 

[Jerusha]

I think the problem comes from the nature of LDS beliefs. To Catholics, many are downright bizarre. As I have stated before, I believe that there is some truth in the BOM, and I have no argument against baptism for the dead-- done properly. Other belief systems can be argued rationally. This one, in its whole, has many flaws that defy rationality.

 

[iwonder]

Jo's_Dad:

I see your point Brad, and for that I do apologize. One of the personal axioms I hold is to never judge a church by the actions of it’s members, and I guess I just forgot that. I have been on other Catholic boards where they are very dignified and understanding while discussing the apologetics of other Christian congregations.

Yes, this is very true indeed.

I was enraged because this is the second time I’ve seen a thread about LDS being changed to LSD (the first has been deleted) and I just lost my temper.

Thank You Brad, you and the Rosary have cleared my head.

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God

God Bless.

Sorry you are offineded. From where I sit, the many bewildering religions created in the 1500-1900s, originated to lead people away from the Real Presence of Christ, simply because their originators could not handle being in the Real Presence of Christ. Since most Catholics of sincere faith believe their Eucharist is the Real Presence of Christ on earth and in heaven, is there some reason why you would expect a Catholic of good faith to take religions that teach exactly the opposite, seriously?
What exactly does your new religion have to offer that we already do not have?

 

[BJ_Colbert]

iwonder:

Sorry you are offineded. From where I sit, the many bewildering religions created in the 1500-1900s, originated to lead people away from the Real Presence of Christ, simply because their originators could not handle being in the Real Presence of Christ. Since most Catholics of sincere faith believe their Eucharist is the Real Presence of Christ on earth and in heaven, is there some reason why you would expect a Catholic of good faith to take religions that teach exactly the opposite, seriously?
What exactly does your new religion have to offer that we already do not have?

Eternal marriage with families sealed together for eternity, and baptism by emersion(as Christ taught) for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost, given by the laying on of hands, and the authority of the priesthood to act in God’s name. Direct and continuing revelation from God in modern times. A prophet and 12 apostles to guide us and many more things that you have lost from your early beginnings.
That is all, and I do take other religions including Catholics seriously, because you do believe in God and that is very important, just because you do not know the truth as we know it and as it has been restored, does not mean you are not Christian, it simply means you do not know and do not accept the things that God has revealed to all people in the latter days. Someday you may know the truth, and you are still a child of God, no matter what you believe. The Catholic Church has kept the belief in God alive in the midst of much conflict and evil, and is a great and good force in the world. The popes tried their best to keep the beliefs pure even with evil empires forcing them to change and bringing non-believers into the church. There was nothing they could do to keep the non-believers from changing the original church, and losing the authority to act in God’s name. When the authority was lost about 570 AD, the church still struggled mightly to keep the basic belief in God, and they did an excellent job.
It is fine to call us Mormons, I call myself Mormon, when I do not want to explain further. It is much simpler and a more well-known name, although it is not our official name.
BJ

 

[Brad_Haas]

570 AD, BJ? What happened then?

 

[iwonder]

BJ Colbert:

Eternal marriage with families sealed together for eternity, and baptism by emersion(as Christ taught) for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost, given by the laying on of hands, and the authority of the priesthood to act in God’s name. Direct and continuing revelation from God in modern times. A prophet and 12 apostles to guide us and many more things that you have lost from your early beginnings.
That is all, and I do take other religions including Catholics seriously, because you do believe in God and that is very important, just because you do not know the truth as we know it and as it has been restored, does not mean you are not Christian, it simply means you do not know and do not accept the things that God has revealed to all people in the latter days. Someday you may know the truth, and you are still a child of God, no matter what you believe. The Catholic Church has kept the belief in God alive in the midst of much conflict and evil, and is a great and good force in the world. The popes tried their best to keep the beliefs pure even with evil empires forcing them to change and bringing non-believers into the church. There was nothing they could do to keep the non-believers from changing the original church, and losing the authority to act in God’s name. When the authority was lost about 570 AD, the church still struggled mightly to keep the basic belief in God, and they did an excellent job.
It is fine to call us Mormons, I call myself Mormon, when I do not want to explain further. It is much simpler and a more well-known name, although it is not our official name.
BJ

1. I reject sealed families theology for this reason: “he who loves mother, father, son or daughter more than me, is not worthy of me.” From where I sit, I would rather be sealed with Him. And I would like my family to be as well. Not with each other, but with Him.
2. Baptism by immersion: I reject this as required for it is impractical in many emergency situations and it is the desire and acceptance that matters, not whether the water is big or little. Requiring immersion is pre superstition. Catholics reject all superstition.
3. the Gift of the Holy Spirit. Since you say the Church did once know God and preserve God and Gospel through the generations until somebody messed it up, to quote you-“The popes tried their best to keep the beliefs pure even with evil empires forcing them to change and bringing non-believers into the church”,then you could concede then that the Holy Spirit was in action prior to what was it, 570AD. If under the influence of the Holy Spirit, it cannot error, nor be taken over by evil forces. Explain yourself, please, B.J. We believe the Holy Spirit is something that darkness cannot overcome. What do you believe, that it is a weak thing that can be vanquished at 570AD?

 

[boppysbud]

BJ Colbert:

Eternal marriage with families sealed together for eternity, and baptism by emersion(as Christ taught) for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost, given by the laying on of hands, and the authority of the priesthood to act in God’s name. Direct and continuing revelation from God in modern times. A prophet and 12 apostles to guide us and many more things that you have lost from your early beginnings.
It is fine to call us Mormons, I call myself Mormon, when I do not want to explain further. It is much simpler and a more well-known name, although it is not our official name.
BJ

BJ has just illustrated the biggest problem I have with Mormonism, the apostacy/restoration dichotomy. I myself was raised in a denomination that teaches apostacy/restoration, but not Mormon. A leader from my former sect transfered from the “christian church” (campbellites) to the Mormons way back at thier beginningn the early 1830s and took this teaching with him into the Mormons.

The problem is that the original church the Catholic church did not “apostacise” itself out of existence. The second problem is that there was no “restoration”. To be “restored” doctrines had to exist to begin with. Such doctrines as eternal marriage and polygamy, the authority of the priesthood to act in God’s name, direct and continuing revelation, a “prophet” and 12 apostles, (prophets were Jewish, apostles were people who knew Christ personally, they were replaced by Catholic Bishops), baptism for the dead, three seperate “gods” in the “godhead” were restorations of nothing, none of these teachings were known before Joe Smith made them up in the 19th century.

There are no biblical or historic references to any of these teachings anywhere in Christianity.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Let’s see now, I believe iwonder asked what Mormons have that Catholics don’t have and I simply stated what we have. I know you don’t believe it and don’t practice any of it, I did not say that you had to believe it. I said I believe it and my family, by being sealed in heaven is also sealed to God, in the same way that you believe you are sealed to God. We believe you can have both God and family. That is why his plan was family units from day one, with Adam and Eve. Marriage is one of the holy sacraments and as such is eternal. I can’t imagine an emergency baptism, it takes thought, prayer and preparation. You can’t just be baptized in an emergency. How silly that would be.
The gift of the holy ghost is given by the laying on of hands after baptism and before that we all have periods when he is with us and also all good people have the Light of Christ. After we are baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, we have access to his guidance in our lives as long as we remain worthy.
That is just what I believe and I am not saying that is what you should believe, you asked and I told you that is all.
As far as 570AD that is what I read in a website posted by a Catholic in this forum that said Emperor Justinian pretty much took away the last authority left over from the Apostles, by making the law that all persons in the Roman empire had to be Catholic. Thus bringing in a lot of unbelievers who corrupted the last vestige of the original Church of Jesus Christ. I only read that here, so I don’t know personally if it is true. Sorry, sounded reasonable to me. Could be an anti-Catholic website and that is where you get most of your information on Mormons, so I thought that is what we should be learning about Catholics too. If it isn’t true then excuse me, it’s just like the untruths and partial truths the Catholics tell about Mormons. A little bit of truth warped by personal spin by an anti-whatever. Sorry about that, but you guys posted it. I only read it and repeated it. BJ

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Oh forgot one thing, the Holy Spirit is not a weak thing to be overcome by evil, it is the human spirit that is weak and overcome by evil if we let it be. God has as in the case of Noah’s time, become angry with humans and has taken his spirit from them for a time. The Holy Spirit cannot dwell in any unclean thing. And, God will not allow any unclean thing in His presence. That is all I was saying, not that the Holy Spirit is weak at all. Just people do not always listen and they have their free agency to choose right or wrong. When they choose wrong the spirit withdraws his presence.
Happy Sabbath Evening. BJ

 

[Brad_Haas]

Regarding BJ’s last comment, I hear that a lot, and my brief observation is that it implies that the Church is merely the sum of its human members. In truth, the Church is rather more: the body of Christ, with him as its head.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Brad Haas:

Regarding BJ’s last comment, I hear that a lot, and my brief observation is that it implies that the Church is merely the sum of its human members. In truth, the Church is rather more: the body of Christ, with him as its head.

So is it your claim that the Holy Spirit dwells even with the wicked at all times, and never withdraws His presence when wickedness abides? That is interesting, and it is OK if that is your belief?
I still believe that no unclean thing can dwell with God the Father and in the same vein the Holy Spirit. You above all should agree with that, as you believe they are the same personage. So if God the Father does not allow uncleaness, it follows that the Holy Spirit also would not dwell with a person who is filled with wickedness and evil. I really thought you would agree with that, and am surprised at your disagreement. Oh well, just shows how far apart our beliefs really are sometimes. Sorry… BJ

 

[Brad_Haas]

Where did I say that?

 

[iwonder]

BJ Colbert:

Let’s see now, I believe iwonder asked what Mormons have that Catholics don’t have and I simply stated what we have. I know you don’t believe it and don’t practice any of it, I did not say that you had to believe it. I said I believe it and my family, by being sealed in heaven is also sealed to God, in the same way that you believe you are sealed to God. We believe you can have both God and family. That is why his plan was family units from day one, with Adam and Eve. Marriage is one of the holy sacraments and as such is eternal. I can’t imagine an emergency baptism, it takes thought, prayer and preparation. You can’t just be baptized in an emergency. How silly that would be.
The gift of the holy ghost is given by the laying on of hands after baptism and before that we all have periods when he is with us and also all good people have the Light of Christ. After we are baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, we have access to his guidance in our lives as long as we remain worthy.
That is just what I believe and I am not saying that is what you should believe, you asked and I told you that is all.
As far as 570AD that is what I read in a website posted by a Catholic in this forum that said Emperor Justinian pretty much took away the last authority left over from the Apostles, by making the law that all persons in the Roman empire had to be Catholic. Thus bringing in a lot of unbelievers who corrupted the last vestige of the original Church of Jesus Christ. I only read that here, so I don’t know personally if it is true. Sorry, sounded reasonable to me. Could be an anti-Catholic website and that is where you get most of your information on Mormons, so I thought that is what we should be learning about Catholics too. If it isn’t true then excuse me, it’s just like the untruths and partial truths the Catholics tell about Mormons. A little bit of truth warped by personal spin by an anti-whatever. Sorry about that, but you guys posted it. I only read it and repeated it. BJ

What in the world does that have to do with your original post about Jesus appearing in this hemisphere and so on…My dear, I was not responding to an anti mormon website- I was responding to the “facts” you outlined about Jesus appearance in this hemisphere.

 

[iwonder]

Brad Haas:

Where did I say that?

You didn’t Brad. This is just B.J’s way of blowing off people who don’t agree with her arguments. that’s all. She puts words in their mouth and then claims they re anti mormon or something. Don’t worry about it.

 

[Magnolia]

BJ Colbert:

Eternal marriage with families sealed together for eternity, and baptism by emersion(as Christ taught) for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost, given by the laying on of hands, and the authority of the priesthood to act in God’s name. Direct and continuing revelation from God in modern times. A prophet and 12 apostles to guide us and many more things that you have lost from your early beginnings.
That is all, and I do take other religions including Catholics seriously, because you do believe in God and that is very important, just because you do not know the truth as we know it and as it has been restored, does not mean you are not Christian, it simply means you do not know and do not accept the things that God has revealed to all people in the latter days. Someday you may know the truth, and you are still a child of God, no matter what you believe. The Catholic Church has kept the belief in God alive in the midst of much conflict and evil, and is a great and good force in the world. The popes tried their best to keep the beliefs pure even with evil empires forcing them to change and bringing non-believers into the church. There was nothing they could do to keep the non-believers from changing the original church, and losing the authority to act in God’s name. When the authority was lost about 570 AD, the church still struggled mightly to keep the basic belief in God, and they did an excellent job.
It is fine to call us Mormons, I call myself Mormon, when I do not want to explain further. It is much simpler and a more well-known name, although it is not our official name.
BJ

BJ, would you believe that Catholics don’t think that we will be together with our families in heaven?

 

[iwonder]

Magnolia:

BJ, would you believe that Catholics don’t think that we will be together with our families in heaven?

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Brad Haas:

Regarding BJ’s last comment, I hear that a lot, and my brief observation is that it implies that the Church is merely the sum of its human members. In truth, the Church is rather more: the body of Christ, with him as its head.

My mother always told me it is the Church that makes the people, not the people who make the church.
What I said has nothing to do with the Church, I was simply stating that a person who is wicked through and through will not have the Holy Spirit’s influence unless he has some spark of goodness that opens to allow that spirit to dwell with him for a time. This applies to people who are not in any church and have no contact with any religion.
I would assume any who are attending Church(any church) are in tune with the holy spirit, and therefore receiving spiritual guidance. Any who believe in Christ and are sincere believers will have his guidance. So I don’t know if this clarifies or not. I do not explain myself very well, and am very surprised at the response to my posts, as I thought that was something Catholics would agree with. Sorry, for the misunderstanding…BJ

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Magnolia:

BJ, would you believe that Catholics don’t think that we will be together with our families in heaven?

I really don’t know what Catholics believe on this point, I only know that I have been told in these posts that you believe that you will know your family, but not as a family, just as friends and that basking in the presence of God will be all you need. So there is no need for marriage and sealing together of families for eternity.
Catholics state the scripture that “there will be no marriages in heaven” Which to us means that the marriage sacraments as well as baptism must be performed on earth. Hence we have our Temples where these sacraments are performed for the dead.
I don’t expect Catholics to agree with me at all. iwonder only asked what we had that Catholics don’t have and I told her. It is what I believe and I stated what I believe. I certainly don’t expect that you would all believe suddenly. I was only explaining and not expecting argument. What is there to argue about? You believe one thing and I another. It is assumed that is why we are here to discuss the differences and the similarities between the two religions, not to force each other to believe something they don’t. I hoped by explaining simply to give understanding of what we believe. Thank you for listening to my efforts, sorry for any misunderstandings, I am not a scholar, only an old lady with strong beliefs trying to understand another religion. BJ

 

[Jerusha]

What I said has nothing to do with the Church, I was simply stating that a person who is wicked through and through will not have the Holy Spirit’s influence unless he has some spark of goodness that opens to allow that spirit to dwell with him for a time. This applies to people who are not in any church and have no contact with any religion.
I would assume any who are attending Church(any church) are in tune with the holy spirit, and therefore receiving spiritual guidance. Any who believe in Christ and are sincere believers will have his guidance.

That is good enough, I also believe that those who do not (yet) believe in Christ, but believe in reaching towards what is good (God) also receive Guidance. Just because a person does not believe in Christ does not mean that they are

wicked through and through

.