Forum Title

  • Thread starter Thread starter Mary1973
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
BJ Colbert:
I really don’t know what Catholics believe on this point, I only know that I have been told in these posts that you believe that you will know your family, but not as a family, just as friends and that basking in the presence of God will be all you need. So there is no need for marriage and sealing together of families for eternity.
Catholics state the scripture that “there will be no marriages in heaven” Which to us means that the marriage sacraments as well as baptism must be performed on earth. Hence we have our Temples where these sacraments are performed for the dead.
I don’t expect Catholics to agree with me at all. iwonder only asked what we had that Catholics don’t have and I told her. It is what I believe and I stated what I believe. I certainly don’t expect that you would all believe suddenly. I was only explaining and not expecting argument. What is there to argue about? You believe one thing and I another. It is assumed that is why we are here to discuss the differences and the similarities between the two religions, not to force each other to believe something they don’t. I hoped by explaining simply to give understanding of what we believe. Thank you for listening to my efforts, sorry for any misunderstandings, I am not a scholar, only an old lady with strong beliefs trying to understand another religion. BJ
Click to expand...
Dang girl I just wanted to know what you thought! No arguing, no challenging just wanted some clarification when you said you would be giving up being with your family in heaven. Your post seems to imply that we wouldn’t hope to be with our families in heaven. I too am just trying to understand another religion.

From what my SIL has told me, she believes that there are three heavens and only temple worthy, married spouses will be in the third heaven with God the Father. Mormons that are not temple worthy would go to the second heaven ministered by Christ Jesus but that my husband/her brother and I being Catholic but trying to live a good life would only go to the Terrestial heaven to be with the Holy Spirit. Haven’t seen this discussed on these forums but from what I am gathering this may or may not be taught nowadays. She never implied that she didn’t think we as Catholics thought we were not going to be with our family in heaven. So, that is why I asked. Just wanted to know.

These forums are great because they allow us to exchange ideas/beliefs without the emotional baggage that can sometimes enter into family discussions.
 
40.png
Magnolia:
From what my SIL has told me, she believes that there are three heavens and only temple worthy, married spouses will be in the third heaven with God the Father. Mormons that are not temple worthy would go to the second heaven ministered by Christ Jesus but that my husband/her brother and I being Catholic but trying to live a good life would only go to the Terrestial heaven to be with the Holy Spirit. Haven’t seen this discussed on these forums but from what I am gathering this may or may not be taught nowadays. She never implied that she didn’t think we as Catholics thought we were not going to be with our family in heaven. So, that is why I asked. Just wanted to know.
Click to expand...
Your SIL is in fact mistaken. She probably just misspoke or something. No LDS with an understanding of what is taught can suggest that a good faithful Catholic will be in the Telestial heaven (or the one they might suggest is the lowest). It is possible for a LDS to believe that a good faithful non-LDS will be in the Terrestrial heaven (or the one they might suggest is the middle kingdom).

Now, that being said, LDS practice and teaching are not in alignment with the above view either IMO (and I am quite far from alone in this to the point that I am not sure which is the more common view). LDS teach that we will perform all temple ordinances for all people. Things like Celestial marriage are of no use for any kingdom but the Celestial kingdom, so it is possible for non-“Temple-worthy”-folks to go the Celestial kingdom.

All will be given a “fair and just opportunity” to accept the fullness of the gospel and ultimately choose their post mortal kingdom. This does not mean that those who had a “fair and just opportunity” will be given a “second chance.” This is not the case. But, to my knowledge no LDS authority has ever attempted to define what a “fair and just opportunity” is and is not. Thankfully, this decision is in God’s hands.

Charity, TOm
 
40.png
Magnolia:
Dang girl I just wanted to know what you thought! No arguing, no challenging just wanted some clarification when you said you would be giving up being with your family in heaven. Your post seems to imply that we wouldn’t hope to be with our families in heaven. I too am just trying to understand another religion.

From what my SIL has told me, she believes that there are three heavens and only temple worthy, married spouses will be in the third heaven with God the Father. Mormons that are not temple worthy would go to the second heaven ministered by Christ Jesus but that my husband/her brother and I being Catholic but trying to live a good life would only go to the Terrestial heaven to be with the Holy Spirit. Haven’t seen this discussed on these forums but from what I am gathering this may or may not be taught nowadays. She never implied that she didn’t think we as Catholics thought we were not going to be with our family in heaven. So, that is why I asked. Just wanted to know.

These forums are great because they allow us to exchange ideas/beliefs without the emotional baggage that can sometimes enter into family discussions.
Click to expand...
From what I understand from these forums, Catholics will know their families, just not as a family unit, and being in the presence of God will be the important thing. None of us know where we are going until we die and after the judgement day, but as I understand it the lowest level of heaven is reserved for murderers, rapists, etc etc.
The other middle level is for good people who just didn’t try very hard, and the highest for the ones who really gave it their best effort in life. A overly simplified understanding I know, but I’m kind of simple. It is really up to the individual where he will end up, just like in life. Some put more effort into reaching their goals than others. Each will be judged according to their own understanding and capabilities. God is the final judge as to what degree we attain. There are certain sacraments that must be followed to attain the very highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom.
I really like and agree with Tom’s explanation. He knows from both Catholic and Mormon viewpoints… BJ
 
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
(2 Corinthians 12:2)
 
Maybe I have confused the terms for the different levels of heaven - it has been a few years since we discussed this - but from a jewish perspective when Paul was talking about the third heaven he was referring not to the terrestial (earthly) heaven where the birds fly or the celestial (heavenly) heaven where the stars are but the third heaven where God is. that would be my take on the third heaven.

I understood her (SIL) to say that it was so important to be a temple worthy LDS here in this life because that was the only way to get to the Celestial Kindgdom - and hence why she was so upset when her brother married me - a Catholic.

I wasn’t aware that people could be sealed in marriage after death. I know LDS baptise for the dead to fulfill the ordinance of baptism - so that if they accept mormonism they can go to the middle heaven? Would this be right? Are couples (non LDS) who have died sealed in marriage in a temple ceremony? Am I right in saying that anyone who has been baptised either here on earth or after death in the temple and accepted mormonism could in fact go to the celestial heaven? Is there still the concept of being with God in this heaven, Jesus in the second heaven and the Holy Spirit in the lower heaven?

M

I
 
Magnolia,
Yes, LDS baptize for the dead in temples and perform the sealing ceremony for them also, which means they would be eligible for the Celestial Kingdom as “sealed” families should they accept it. The doctrine isn’t to give them a second chance but rather to give them a first chance if they didn’t have sufficient chance during their mortal lives, as determined by God.

Regarding your question about the three degrees of glory and the relationship of the inhabitants in each with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit I should refer you to D&C Section 76 to read for yourself.
 
40.png
Magnolia:
Maybe I have confused the terms for the different levels of heaven - it has been a few years since we discussed this - but from a jewish perspective when Paul was talking about the third heaven he was referring not to the terrestial (earthly) heaven where the birds fly or the celestial (heavenly) heaven where the stars are but the third heaven where God is. that would be my take on the third heaven.I
Click to expand...
I am committed to the idea that scripture can be interpreted on multiple levels. That does not necessarily mean you and Casen are both right, but to me it means that you both could be right.

I like to quote 1 Cor 15:40-42
KJV Bible:
There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
Click to expand...
The LDS understanding of this passage has good agreement with some statements by the ECFs (Origin with Irenaeus providing other support).
40.png
Magnolia:
I understood her (SIL) to say that it was so important to be a temple worthy LDS here in this life because that was the only way to get to the Celestial Kindgdom - and hence why she was so upset when her brother married me - a Catholic.
Click to expand...
The CoJCoLDS definitely emphasizes marring within the faith. This is really quite similar to some of the Catholic Church’s policies.
40.png
Magnolia:
I wasn’t aware that people could be sealed in marriage after death. I know LDS baptise for the dead to fulfill the ordinance of baptism - so that if they accept mormonism they can go to the middle heaven? Would this be right? Are couples (non LDS) who have died sealed in marriage in a temple ceremony? Am I right in saying that anyone who has been baptised either here on earth or after death in the temple and accepted mormonism could in fact go to the celestial heaven? Is there still the concept of being with God in this heaven, Jesus in the second heaven and the Holy Spirit in the lower heaven?
Click to expand...
The Godhead is in perfect communion with the members of the Godhead, but in general LDS teach that God the Son will interact with those in the middle kingdom and God the Holy Spirit will interact with those in the lower kingdom.

And while there is a scriptural precedent to suggest that those who accept the gospel after death will not be in the Celestial kingdom, this is not in alignment with other beliefs and practices of the church. Those who had a “fair and just opportunity” to accept the fullness of the gospel, but rejected it, will not be given a second chance. Certainly these folks will not be in the Celestial kindom.

Charity, TOm
 
40.png
Jerusha:
Heaven, hell, and purgatory?? 😉 👋
Click to expand...
Ok, here are my thoughts on Purgatory.

First, we should recognize that Purgatory is not something that is immediately apparent in the writings of the earliest of the ECF. It is also difficult to align with scripture (with the exception of a few statements in the books Protestants removed from the Bible).

Here are some similarities between Purgatory and Spirit Prison (the term Spirit Prison referring to both the Spirit Prison portion of Spirit Prison and the Paradise portion of Spirit Prison as spirits in both long for the release from their non-embodied state).

Both are places were almost all who die reside for a period of “time” after death.

Both involve changing of the spirits who reside so that they will be ready for heavenly glory.

Neither is the eternal abode of the spirits who are there.

Both give Protestants great heart ache.

A critical difference in my mind:

While both Purgatory and Spirit Prison certainly involve some pain associated with change and/or …, Spirit Prison specifically DEMANDS that we are LEARNING. Few (if any, I know of none) references concerning Purgatory involve LEARNING. To me this is a problem. Catholics would say that it is absolute necessary to knowing the nature of God. But in Catholic thought there are those who have no concept of God or the Trinity who can be eligible for the Baptism of Desire. I would suggest that for these folks LEARNING must occur in Purgatory. As a Catholic, I would recognize the ignorance that those who did not know God (in a fairly tangible way as we can know him through reason aided by grace) possesse and view this as part of that which was purged in Purgatory.

Anyway, that is perhaps the biggest most powerful difference between Purgatory and Spirit Prison in my mind, and I think a Catholic can reconcile it if they choose. I also think it is critical for the salvation of those who are “Baptized by desire,” but died without knowing God is the truth.

Charity, TOm
 
Very interesting TOm. I’ve always assumed the LDS notion of Spirit Prison was similar to the Catholic notion of Purgatory but hadn’t considered this point.
 
Quoting TOmNossor
“Both involve changing of the spirits who reside so that they will be ready for heavenly glory…While both Purgatory and Spirit Prison certainly involve some pain associated with change and/or …, Spirit Prison specifically DEMANDS that we are LEARNING. Few (if any, I know of none) references concerning Purgatory involve LEARNING.”

Ok I am with you on the changing of the spirits, so they can be ready for heavenly glory. How else will they change unless they learn is my question? I just can’t see were you got the word demands, when everything the LDS church states is about agency and personal accountabilty. Yes learning will take place but it will be taugh by people you want to learn from (believe it or not). Apostles being some of the teachers, who could look Abraham in the eye and say I don’t want to know what you have to say.
Then if they did then that is a pretty good marker that they won’t be going to any greater heavenly glory. I’m glad I’m not the judge, it makes me sad to think anyone wouldn’t make it back to live with our Heavenly Father after this life.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top