Foundation of the church

[chewchoo]

in a discussion with an anti-catholic he basically said that

ephesians 2 –
19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones and members of the household of God,
20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone. 10
21 Through him the whole structure is held together and grows into a temple sacred in the Lord;
22 in him you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

trumps

matthew 16 –
18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

so that peter is not the head of the church, jesus is. yes, all true, but jesus left us an earthly leader.
but to that i got paul is just as important as peter.

some guidance please showing where paul is not the same as peter.
this person has repeatedly stated various things are “not important” when defending his viewpoint. basically, if it’s not christ centered its not important. the blessed mother’s perpetual virginity is not important. peter is not important. etc.

 

[NotWorthy]

in a discussion with an anti-catholic he basically said that

trumps

so that peter is not the head of the church, jesus is. yes, all true, but jesus left us an earthly leader.
but to that i got paul is just as important as peter.

some guidance please showing where paul is not the same as peter.
this person has repeatedly stated various things are “not important” when defending his viewpoint. basically, if it’s not christ centered its not important. the blessed mother’s perpetual virginity is not important. peter is not important. etc.

Since when do the Words of Jesus carry less weight than the words of St. Paul? I never understand this position, for there are people that say this (not all Protestants, mind you, but it is significant).

All of Paul’s writings must be read in the light of Christ. If there is a seeming conflict, one must rectify Paul’s writings with Christ, and not the other way around.

 

[chewchoo]

Since when do the Words of Jesus carry less weight than the words of St. Paul? I never understand this position, for there are people that say this (not all Protestants, mind you, but it is significant).

All of Paul’s writings must be read in the light of Christ. If there is a seeming conflict, one must rectify Paul’s writings with Christ, and not the other way around.

my thoughts exactly!
the interesting thing tho, i have been talking religion with this person for a long time. i’ve known he didn’t like the church, but in this conversation the other day, he was SOOO agitated! and his severe anti-catholicness was made clear. i don’t know, maybe it had something to do with his displeasure that newt gingrich is now a catholic.

 

[Nita]

in a discussion with an anti-catholic he basically said that

trumps

so that peter is not the head of the church, jesus is. yes, all true, but jesus left us an earthly leader.
but to that i got paul is just as important as peter.

some guidance please showing where paul is not the same as peter.
this person has repeatedly stated various things are “not important” when defending his viewpoint. basically, if it’s not christ centered its not important. the blessed mother’s perpetual virginity is not important. peter is not important. etc.

**St. Paul **is talking about the entire Body of Christ/Church - the Church (Militant) on earth, the Church Triumphant in heaven (and those in purgatory, Church Suffering). Jesus is the head of all - even the Church here on earth.

As you note, Jesus appointed a visible head for His Church here on earth. Jesus “rules” - expresses His will and His truths - through this visible head (the Pope). Through His Divine power, Jesus ensures that the Pope does not err when speaking definitively as head of the Church on matters of faith and morals. **St. Matthew’s **gospel refers to this visible head of the Church Militant.

BTW, I don’t think the Pope is ever referred to as being head of the Church Suffering or the Church Triumphant

 

[chewchoo]

**St. Paul **is talking about the entire Body of Christ/Church - the Church (Militant) on earth, the Church Triumphant in heaven (and those in purgatory, Church Suffering). Jesus is the head of all - even the Church here on earth.

But He appointed a visible head for His Church here on earth. Jesus will “rule” - express His will and His truths - through this visible head, the Pope. Through His power He is able to ensure that the Pope does not err when speaking definitively as head of the Church on matters of faith and morals. **St. Matthew’s **gospel refers to this visible head of the Church Militant.

BTW, I don’t think the Pope is ever referred to as being head of the Church Suffering or the Church Triumphant

great, thank you.
we have different “levels” of the church, and the earthly level needs someone tangible. if we don’t have this visible, audible presence with us always, we will surely forget our Lord.

 

[Nita]

great, thank you.
we have different “levels” of the church, and the earthly level needs someone tangible. if we don’t have this visible, audible presence with us always, we will surely forget our Lord.

And even if we didn’t forget Him, we wouldn’t know for sure what His truth is when conflicting doctrines are put forth. Reliance on our own thoughts and reasoning, our own sense of being inspired by the Holy Spirit, is not good enough. In fact it is what often leads to conflicting proposals. I’m sure many of the heretics felt they were being inspired by the Holy Spirit.

 

[NotWorthy]

So, to your point. As Matthew 16 and 18, and Ephesians 2 point out, the Apostles were given some authority. This authority only carries weight as long as they are working through Christ. Luckily, John 13-15 teaches us that Christ will send the Holy Spirit go guide the Apostles.

But Matthew 16 clearly states that Peter has a unique position of authority (the keys to the kingdom). Unless St. Paul specifically says that Peter is not the head (in Jesus’ absence), then there is no conflict.

The Apostles, as a whole, have a certain amount of authority, just as Peter, as an individual, does.

We see much evidence in this in Acts:
ch 1, where Peter alone makes the decision that Judas’ position needs to be filled.
ch 7, where the Apostles, as a group, decide to ordain deacons to help with the Greek widows.
ch 9 (I think), where Peter alone decides its time to allow Gentiles into the New Covenant Church.
ch 15, where the Apostles, as a group, decide that Circumcision is not a pre-requisite.

Now, some may question that this authority died out with the Apostles? I’d have to deny that, just by looking at the Jerusalem Council, headed by James, the bishop of Jerusalem. James was not one of the Apostles, yet he still held authority in the Council.

 

[COPLAND_3]

Not to derail this thread, but I am thrilled to hear that Newt has converted! I have always been a Newt fan, he could have been the best president. He was an awesome Speaker of the House, Clinton got the credit for balancing the budget and welfare reform but we have Newt to thank for that.

 

[NHInsider]

in a discussion with an anti-catholic he basically said that

peter is not the head of the church, jesus is. yes, all true, but jesus left us an earthly leader.
but to that i got paul is just as important as peter.

It won’t matter, because this is a classic case of someone who is blinded by his belief, but Acts 9 and Galatians 1 makes it clear that Paul went to Jerusalem and was interviewed/examined by Pater before his apostolic ministry was approved by the Church.

 

[NHInsider]

It won’t matter, because this is a classic case of someone who is blinded by his belief, but Acts 9 and Galatians 1 makes it clear that Paul went to Jerusalem and was interviewed/examined by Pater before his apostolic ministry was approved by the Church.

Meant to add this reference: Matthew 13:14

 

[chewchoo]

It won’t matter, because this is a classic case of someone who is blinded by his belief,

yeah, i know
but on a bright note, his attempt to convert me over served to open my eyes to my catholic faith. so i have hope that his scales will be removed.

but Acts 9 and Galatians 1 makes it clear that Paul went to Jerusalem and was interviewed/examined by Pater before his apostolic ministry was approved by the Church.

this is great, i’m going to have to study up on these passages. thanks