Foundation of Truth

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I am here trying to learn. I was Catholic and left the Catholic church in 2003. I have repeatedly gone through these cycles where I feel I am being pulled toward both Catholicism and Baptist. Not sure why or who is pulling me, but, I figured I should start trying to learn the truth about the Catholic church.

In order to build our faith on anything, we must believe there are absolute truths. As a Baptist I have been taught and understand that the Scriptures are that absolute truth. Whatever is in the Scriptures is all we need to learn, to walk in the faith, to know God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit. It contains all we need to learn about the saving Grace of God.

So, what is the absolute truth according to the Catholic church? How do they know it is truth? Where do they find this truth? What is this truth based on?

I appreciate in advance anyone who will help me learn this. After we can agree on what is God’s absolute truth I will be better equipped to dive into other subjects.

Thanks again.

JOL
 
JOL said:
I am here trying to learn. I was Catholic and left the Catholic church in 2003. I have repeatedly gone through these cycles where I feel I am being pulled toward both Catholicism and Baptist. Not sure why or who is pulling me, but, I figured I should start trying to learn the truth about the Catholic church.

In order to build our faith on anything, we must believe there are absolute truths. As a Baptist I have been taught and understand that the Scriptures are that absolute truth. Whatever is in the Scriptures is all we need to learn, to walk in the faith, to know God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit. It contains all we need to learn about the saving Grace of God.
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Truth is objective, not subjective. The Holy Spirit guides the individual and the church, but most in particular the church into all truth. This was Christs promise in John.
So, what is the absolute truth according to the Catholic church? How do they know it is truth? Where do they find this truth? What is this truth based on?
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1 Tim3:15: if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

How is Paul able to say the church is the pillar and foundation and not scripture alone? (which is also objective truth) His answer is in your question: What is this truth based on?. The Holy Spirit is the basis of truth, according to scripture, leading the church. As well, Jesus Christ, the truth, the way and the life and our Father in heaven. How do we know it is the truth? Christ promised it. We find this truth because we do Jesus has the power to fulfil his promises.
I appreciate in advance anyone who will help me learn this. After we can agree on what is God’s absolute truth I will be better equipped to dive into other subjects.
Thanks again.
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JOL
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The church is organic, it is growing. The church began as a mustard seed which grows into a tree (borrowed this appropos analogy). It does not remain static, as can be attested to in the New Testament. We see the seed growing throughout the epistles as the church structure emerges, something the apostles are working towards.

The apostles do not have sacred scripture yet, nor their followers, except for the Old Testament (which is fliud at this point). Christ opened up scripture to them and the Holy Spirit clearly leads then through their decision processes as needs arise. This still occurs to this day. God did not stop having the Holy Spirit lead the church when Scripture was finally canonized. The sacred books were not intended to replace Gods guidance, but as a testament to the revelation of his Son. They are Gods words to us, yet for example, it does not address stem cell research. What are the moral and theologic implications. How will it be addressed? With the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

There is a clear answer from God through the Holy Spirit when he is prayed to to lead and guide.

Contrary to this is the belief that the Holy Spirit will lead each individual into all objective truth. Yet many have differing opinions. How can this be? In the later case it makes truth subjective and not objective. The Holy Spirit subjective not objective. Yet we know beyond doubt that God is objective as are his truths.

Hope that helps.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
Nicene,
Thank you for your reply.

How does this marry up with the protestant view that the church is the Body of Believers?

Is this one of those things we have to just have faith and believe, or is there fact to support which church is the true church?

JOL
 
JOL said:
How does this marry up with the protestant view that the church is the Body of Believers?

Is this one of those things we have to just have faith and believe, or is there fact to support which church is the true church?
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first of all the very word trinity is not in the bible. you could come up with that the father is God and the son is God and the spirit is God so it looks like there are three Gods but that is not what we belive we belive that they are 3 persons but one in the same God. where is that in the bible were is trinity in the bible. its not The church gave us this teaching so we have an authority out side of the bible that gave us this teaching.

also if all belivers are part of this Church thes verses would not make any sense.

(Jn 10:16) there will be one fold and one sheperd. not 33,000 plus
(eph4:3-6) one Lord, one faith one baptism not 33,000
the bible urges us not to have any divisions what so ever.
(Rom16:17) i urge that there be no divisions among you.
1Cor1:10) i urge that there be no divisions amon you
(Phil 2:2) be of the same mind, united in heart and thinking one thing.
(Rom 15:5) God grant that there be no divisions among you.

divison in the bible is not a good thing but protestans say otherwise.

what does Jesus think or pray for
(Jn 17:21) Jesus prays so that they may all be one as you Father are in me and I in you that they may also may be in us.

do Jesus and the Father disagre on baptism, confession, ext.

history proves that we are the Church the reformers knew that. but they broke of from the Church taht God said the gates of hell will not prevail aginst it. does that make sence. yes we had some wolve in sheep cloathing but we did not leave the aposles because Judas betrayed Jesus did we. come home to the Church Jesus founded and you will lean that nothing in scripture contradidct our faith. it may not say word for word what we believe like the trinity. but the bible does not contradidct what we believe why wjould it we gave it to the world come to the sorce to interprit scriptur not to someone who just decicded to interprit for themselves.
 
JOL,

Let me present a scenario to you. The Bible tells us that if your brother wrongs you, you should try to correct him. If this doesn’t work, you should bring 2 or 3 other brothers to try to correct him. If this doesn’t work, you should take it to the Church.

A) If the Church is simply a body of believers, then isn’t this redundant to take it, first, to 2 or 3 of your brothers, and then to the Church?

B) What if the original problem with your frind is the use of contraception. If you take it to some churches, then your friend will be found to be sinless in his use. If you take it to other churches, then your friend will be found to be in sin for using contaception.

Is this what Jesus wanted? No, of course not. But if you take this problem to any Catholic Church, anywhere in the world, at any time in its history, and they follow what the Catholic Church teaches, then they will be found in err for the use of contraception.

One Church, One Teaching. That’s what Jesus had in mind.
 
JOL said:
I am here trying to learn. I was Catholic and left the Catholic church in 2003. I have repeatedly gone through these cycles where I feel I am being pulled toward both Catholicism and Baptist. Not sure why or who is pulling me, but, I figured I should start trying to learn the truth about the Catholic church.

In order to build our faith on anything, we must believe there are absolute truths. As a Baptist I have been taught and understand that the Scriptures are that absolute truth. Whatever is in the Scriptures is all we need to learn, to walk in the faith, to know God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit. It contains all we need to learn about the saving Grace of God.
Click to expand...
So, what is the absolute truth according to the Catholic church? How do they know it is truth? Where do they find this truth? What is this truth based on?

I appreciate in advance anyone who will help me learn this. After we can agree on what is God’s absolute truth I will be better equipped to dive into other subjects.

Thanks again.

JOLDoes the Bible teach that the Bible is the sole authority for believers? No it doesn’t. (Did you check out that Sola Scriptura Bible study I hooked you up with yet?).

As for Baptist teaching…why then does the apostle Jude quote twice from non-canonical books that are Jewish tradition if the Bible is all we need? If even the apostles quote tradition, and since Jesus did not condemn it as they misinterpret that He did, then why not follow the church, which is the pillar and ground of the truth.

Jude 9 says “But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.”” which is from the Assumption of Moses and is nowhere found in the OT canon.

and then Jude 14 & 15 says “14: It was of these also that Enoch in the seventh generation from Adam prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with his holy myriads,
15: to execute judgment on all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness which they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”” which is from the Book of Enoch and is nowhere found in the OT canon.

Can the Baptist beliefs be found in the verifiable historic writings of the early church such as Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp or the Didache? No, they cannot. So who’s closer to source? Modern non-Catholics like the Baptists, or the authentic writings of the early church and the 2,000 year old Catholic Church that still practices what the real original New Testament church believed.?

The Baptists, like most all the rest of n-C churches, are dead wrong. Don’t believe the propaganda. Get the facts. Decide for yourself.
Pax tecum,
 
JOL said:
Nicene,
Thank you for your reply.

How does this marry up with the protestant view that the church is the Body of Believers?

Is this one of those things we have to just have faith and believe, or is there fact to support which church is the true church?

JOL
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JOL, I’d like to recommend a book to you: How Firm a Foundation, by Marcus Grodi. It presents through the form of a fictional novel the struggles of a Protestant minister as he faces the disunity among Christians. It’s a very engrossing book and I think you will find that the author addresses many of the concerns you have as you try to discern where God would have you be.

amazon.com/How-Firm-Foundation-Marcus-Grodi/dp/0970262124
 
check out www.biblechristiansociety.com John has FREE cd on the one true church he uses scripture for all of his cds he has about 16 free topics on scripture alone, Mary, purgatory, faith alone, once saved always saved, all using the bible all FREE
 
Church_Militant said:
Does the Bible teach that the Bible is the sole authority for believers? No it doesn’t. (Did you check out that Sola Scriptura Bible study I hooked you up with yet?).

As for Baptist teaching…why then does the apostle Jude quote twice from non-canonical books that are Jewish tradition if the Bible is all we need? If even the apostles quote tradition, and since Jesus did not condemn it as they misinterpret that He did, then why not follow the church, which is the pillar and ground of the truth.

Jude 9 says “But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.”” which is from the Assumption of Moses and is nowhere found in the OT canon.

and then Jude 14 & 15 says “14: It was of these also that Enoch in the seventh generation from Adam prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with his holy myriads,
15: to execute judgment on all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness which they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”” which is from the Book of Enoch and is nowhere found in the OT canon.

Can the Baptist beliefs be found in the verifiable historic writings of the early church such as Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp or the Didache? No, they cannot. So who’s closer to source? Modern non-Catholics like the Baptists, or the authentic writings of the early church and the 2,000 year old Catholic Church that still practices what the real original New Testament church believed.?

The Baptists, like most all the rest of n-C churches, are dead wrong. Don’t believe the propaganda. Get the facts. Decide for yourself.
Pax tecum,
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I printed the study and am going to look at it either tonight or tomorrow. Also, I am planning on going to Mass tomorrow. Will probably be my first Mass is about 2 years. I am really having a pulling on me to go, so I will go and see where the Lord leads me. I am just so sick of this pulling back and forth. In all honesty I really don’t want to decide for myself. I would like the Lord to just tell me, if He did I would follow. Thanks for your post. I am also going to download some of the MP3’s the BCS website has. Thanks to all who has pointed me there.

God bless.

JOL
 
I will let the others speak before me, for their faith preceeds mine. I do, however, wish to extend to you a brotherly hug and blessing. I doggie-paddled around in non-denomenational Protestantism for around three years before confronting the Church and then falling in love with Her (and Christ, all over again). Prayerfully seek the truth. It’ll set you free.

God love you,
Tony
 
I also would like to add, as a recent convert to the Church from Evangelicalism, you cannot find the beauty and completeness of the Catholic Church anywhere else in the Christian world! Read the Catechism! You can’t find the widsom of this Church anywhere else! It has been a process of 2000 years of the leading of the Holy Spirit that has produced Her! She has grown from just a babe to a beautiful woman, filled with the Spirit of God, filled with the wisdom He has bestowed on her, a bride being prepared for her groom.

You cannot find the Eucharist where you have been! Come home to Christ, in the Eucharist! There are many, many converts to the Church who have suffered great personal losses because they came to know the Eucharist was really Christ, really waiting for us to partake of Him, and they didn’t delay in coming to Him in spite of the personal cost of family and friends. Don’t keep Him waiting any longer! He is worth it all!
 
When asked where the truth preached by Christ Jesus can be found, most n-catholics will answer the bible, because it contains the word of God and it is the sole rule of faith. But Catholics will say the church because the church holds both the written and spoken word of God (1 Tim3:15).
The n-catholics will support their answer using the bible and they are very good at it. Most of the time they have the bible verses that support their beliefs memorized and the poor catholics are in a disadvantage. But a close scrutiny will disclose that these bible verses are mostly taken out of context to fit their beliefs.

Ask yourself, if the bible contains everything we need to know about the truth of Christ’s teaching, what is His purpose in building His church? Why protect Her from the gates of hell? Why did Jesus promise to be with Her until the end of times? Why commission Her to baptize all nations and to teach them** all** His teaching at all times?

Like you I was born a Catholic, became a born again fundamentalist, then a member of the Southern Liberty Bible Baptist Church, then I almost bacame an INC member, and now Catholic again. These churches I attended are all 20th century, man founded churches but they all claim to be the true church of God. They all have sermons that attack the Catholic Church, almost once a month, and almost every week in the case of the Iglesia Ni Cristo (INC). They all claim that the pope is the anti- Christ and that the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon.With God’s grace I was set free from these half truth, man made churches and brought back to the true Church founded by Jesus. How did I do it?
  1. praying to God not to harden my heart as suggested by an Atenean priest.
  2. reading early church history and comparing it to the history of the protestant churches.
  3. reading some Early Church Fathers writtings like Sts. Igantius, Justin, and Eranaeus.
  4. and harmonizing the bible with the Church’s doctrines instead of pitting them against each other.
You will find out that most of the objections of the protestant/evangelical/fundamentalist churches against the Catholic Church were already answered by our Saints even before their churches were founded by men and that most of their objections are recycled from the anti-catholics in the early days of the Catholic Church.
You will be back home soon if you keep praying to God not to harden your heart.🙂
 
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