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Fredricks:
The Bible does not teach that a Bishop or a priest must do this. It never says that at all.
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**PRIESTHOOD. Sacrament of the New Law, instituted by Christ at the Last Supper, which confers on a man the power of consecrating and offering the body and blood of Christ, and of remitting and retaining sins.

www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/a.html

**
 
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Fredricks:
I was not impressed you quoted someone who contradicts Catholic doctrine by saying that the gospels were written a “generation” after his death. Liberal scholars get under my skin and a good Catholic has no business supporting them.
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The Church does not teach that the scriptures were written immediately following Christ’s death and Resurrection in 33 A.D.

You can dance all you want about the fact that the early Christians relied almost exclusively on oral tradition but it’s a fact.

So, can you show me where in the Bible it says that once the New Testament was written in its entirety, oral tradition was to cease?
 
Joe Gloor:
Nothing personal but I don’t care what your thoughts are on the matter of Transubstantiation itself. I just want to know how you square the ‘non-biblical’ Tradition of transubstantiation with solo-scriptura.
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I dont see what you mean. Seriously. The matter is in the Bible. Tradition would not change it in any way?? If it is supposed to be real and we are misinterpreting it. So what? If it is symbolic and tradition is wrong, so what? It is what it is. Tradition adds nothing to this but someones view of what is already in the Bible. Now, if you think that the "C"hurch is infallible, of course you give a lot of heed to this. It is what it is. Regardless of tradition. The Bible does not teach it has to be an Apostle or a Bishop so we are doing NOTHING contrary to scripture. Before we pertake, we make sure we are not unworthy like Paul said. that is one of the reasons you will see people not taking it I am sure on any given day we do it. I just do not see what you are getting at outside of the fact you have some people’s view on the matter.
 
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Eden:
The Church does not teach that the scriptures were written immediately following Christ’s death and Resurrection in 33 A.D.

You can dance all you want about the fact that the early Christians relied almost exclusively on oral tradition but it’s a fact.

So, can you show me where in the Bible it says that once the New Testament was written in its entirety, oral tradition was to cease?
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How do you define Sola Scripture Eden? Because you are arguing against, well, I am not sure!
 
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Fredricks:
I dont see what you mean. Seriously. The matter is in the Bible. Tradition would not change it in any way?? If it is supposed to be real and we are misinterpreting it. So what? If it is symbolic and tradition is wrong, so what? It is what it is. Tradition adds nothing to this but someones view of what is already in the Bible. Now, if you think that the "C"hurch is infallible, of course you give a lot of heed to this. It is what it is. Regardless of tradition. The Bible does not teach it has to be an Apostle or a Bishop so we are doing NOTHING contrary to scripture. Before we pertake, we make sure we are not unworthy like Paul said. that is one of the reasons you will see people not taking it I am sure on any given day we do it. I just do not see what you are getting at outside of the fact you have some people’s view on the matter.
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Can you give me quotes from early Church Fathers from the beginning of Christianity to the mid-16th century that states that the Eucharist is symbolic?
 
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Fredricks:
We contend the unity the Bible teaches is important is a spiritual unity(which most Protestans, Orthodox, and Catholics have on the essentials) and not a human organizational unity.
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Pardon me for jumping in, but could you tell me where the bible defines the “essentials”?
 
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dwolstro:
Pardon me for jumping in, but could you tell me where the bible defines the “essentials”?
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That would be personal interpretation to be sure but here I go, and Good question, what is essential to salvation is Accepting Christ and baptism.
 
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Eden:
Sola Scriptura means “Bible Only”.
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It means that the Bible is our final authority. Not all Sola Scriptures reject tradition, I mean, look at the Lutherans for goodness sakes!!!
 
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Fredricks:
Jane, the person who writes those answers is. Come on. You know most anyone could do better. You have to see that.
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Ad Hominem. I really thought you could do better, Fred.

In any case, I can hardly keep up with your rules in motion–are you talking to others now? 😉
 
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Fredricks:
It means that the Bible is our final authority. Not all Sola Scriptures reject tradition, I mean, look at the Lutherans for goodness sakes!!!
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Sola means “only”.
 
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Fredricks:
I dont see what you mean. Seriously. The matter is in the Bible. Tradition would not change it in any way?? If it is supposed to be real and we are misinterpreting it. So what? If it is symbolic and tradition is wrong, so what? It is what it is. Tradition adds nothing to this but someones view of what is already in the Bible. Now, if you think that the "C"hurch is infallible, of course you give a lot of heed to this. It is what it is. Regardless of tradition. The Bible does not teach it has to be an Apostle or a Bishop so we are doing NOTHING contrary to scripture. Before we pertake, we make sure we are not unworthy like Paul said. that is one of the reasons you will see people not taking it I am sure on any given day we do it. I just do not see what you are getting at outside of the fact you have some people’s view on the matter.
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Well to quote Scripture on you:
John 6: 53-56 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.
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So whether or not it is symbolic makes all the difference in the world to your salvation - THAT’S what.
If you don’t believe in the Real Presence via Transubstatiation into the real, not symbolic, Body and Blood of Jesus then you are not following the Bible.
And this is where Tradition is so important. You think one, way, I think another and someone else thinks something else altogether. The Church is where we can get to the Truth - not just someone’s opinion.
As far as “some people’s view” aren’t these the same people’s view who you use to derive the Gospels themselves?
Once again, you believe them in one instance and not in another.
 
I feel the need to at least check in here, especially since Fredericks’ post was in response to my questions. I’ve read his post and skimmed through the aftermath. I have comments that will go a slightly different direction.

However, I’m giving an hour-and-a-half talk at our Cathedral tonight on Marion doctrine and am using my day off today to write and practice.

That said, I promise to post responses tomorrow morning (or late tonight if my wife isn’t doing tax stuff). We should be somewhere around post 650 by then, I’m sure, and I apologize for the delay. While I have concerns about Frederick’s answers, I do appreciate that he stayed true to his word and provided the answers, to the best of his ability, to each of my questions.

I hope it doesn’t seem like I’m avoiding, here, but if I let myself get pulled into the exchange now, it’ll be time for the talk and I’ll be left with nothing but a pile of disorganized thoughts.
 
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Fredricks:
The Bible does not teach that a Bishop or a priest must do this. It never says that at all.
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Are you denying the priesthood is biblical?

Ordained Leaders Share in Jesus’ Ministry and Authority

Matt. 10:1,40 - Jesus declares to His apostles, “he who receives you, receives Me, and he who rejects you, rejects Me and the One who sent Me.” Jesus freely gives His authority to the apostles in order for them to effectively convert the world.

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - the apostles are given Christ’s authority to make visible decisions on earth that will be ratified in heaven. God raises up humanity in Christ by exalting his chosen leaders and endowing them with the authority and grace they need to bring about the conversion of all. Without a central authority in the Church, there would be chaos (as there is in Protestantism).

Luke 9:1; 10:19 - Jesus gives the apostles authority over the natural and the supernatural (diseases, demons, serpents, and scorpions).

Luke 10:16 - Jesus tells His apostles, “he who hears you, hears Me.” When we hear the bishops’ teaching on the faith, we hear Christ Himself.

Luke 22:29 - the Father gives the kingdom to the Son, and the Son gives the kingdom to the apostles. The gift is transferred from the Father to the Son to the apostles.

Num 16:28 - the Father’s authority is transferred to Moses. Moses does not speak on his own. This is a real transfer of authority.

John 5:30 - similarly, Jesus as man does nothing of His own authority, but He acts under the authority of the Father.

John 7:16-17 - Jesus as man states that His authority is not His own, but from God. He will transfer this authority to other men.

John 8:28 - Jesus says He does nothing on His own authority. Similarly, the apostles will do nothing on their own authority. Their authority comes from God.

John 12:49 - The father’s authority is transferred to the Son. The Son does not speak on his own. This is a transfer of divine authority.

John 13:20 - Jesus says, “he who receives anyone who I send, receives Me.” He who receives the apostles, receives Christ Himself. He who rejects the apostles and their successors, rejects Christ.

John 14:10 - Jesus says the Word He speaks is not His own authority, but from the Father. The gift is from the Father to Jesus to the apostles.

John 16:14-15 - what the Father has, the Son has, and the Son gives it to the apostles. The authority is not lessened or mitigated.

John 17:18; 20:21 - as the Father sends the Son, the Son sends the apostles. The apostles have divinely appointed authority.

Acts 20:28 - the apostles are shepherds and guardians appointed by the Holy Spirit / 1 Peter 2:25 - Jesus is the Shepherd and Guardian. The apostles, by the power of the Spirit, share Christ’s ministry and authority.

Jer. 23:1-8; Ezek. 34:1-10 - the shepherds must shepherd the sheep, or they will be held accountable by God.

Eph. 2:20 - the Christian faith is built upon the foundation of the apostles. The word “foundation” proves that it does not die with apostles, but carries on through succession.

Eph. 2:20; Rev. 21:9,14 - the words “household,” “Bride of the Lamb,” the “new Jerusalem” are all metaphors for the Church whose foundation is the apostles.

www.scripturecatholic.com
 
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Fredricks:
It means that the Bible is our final authority. Not all Sola Scriptures reject tradition, I mean, look at the Lutherans for goodness sakes!!!
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Are YOU Lutheran? Because, while we may certainly “look at the Lutherans,” looking at them will give us no insight into the dogma of Fredricks and his “us” unless you are.

And once again, your onus is to prove by your final authority that the Bible is THE final authority. You haven’t done it, because you can not.

By all accounts, your ACTUAL “final authority” is your acceptance of the tradition of Sola Scriptura, not Sola Scriptura itself.

Have fun at the mall. . .and if the rules are the same when you get back (i.e., you are still responding to those other than Awful), I’d love to know more about what “traditions” (other than Sola Scripture) you hold doctrinally!
 
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Fredricks:
That would be personal interpretation to be sure but here I go, and Good question, what is essential to salvation is Accepting Christ and baptism.
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AND. . .surely, you’ve read the WHOLE New Testament!???
 
Joe Gloor:
And this is where Tradition is so important. You think one, way, I think another and someone else thinks something else altogether. The Church is where we can get to the Truth - not just someone’s opinion.
As far as “some people’s view” aren’t these the same people’s view who you use to derive the Gospels themselves?
Once again, you believe them in one instance and not in another.
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Hi everyone, very interesting thread. Now couldn’t “oral tradition” be in error? (if this is off topic my apologises and you need not answer). I guess if the Church says it can’t then…it’s like another built in defense mechanism against accusations.

For instance, lets say oral tradition was wrong and made as a doctrine. Could it not be wrong? That is where the whole infallibility of the Pope and office thing become such a contentious issue.

The way I see, “the gates of Hell will not prevail against it” doesn’t guarantee it from error…(or so I have been taught lately 🙂 )

Anyway, just some thoughts,…and weak ones at that. But carry on this is good reading and not many that are presented from a non-C perspective (not that I have seen anyway).
 
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