Foundations of early Hebrew religion and relations to Cannite deities

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B]So they are meaningful? Why is it suddenly you can’t know about Jewish Henotheism? It is rather important to find out the foundation of the Jews especially when many scholars, who are knowledgable, state that Israel most likely was founded by syncretism and adoption of Canaanite’s god(s).
Better known as, a bunch of self important agnostic/atheist writing things to make money from non-believers.
But thats my point! Did God reveal himself or was it a later foundation mythos and the real genesis was syncretism with the Canaanite gods. Many scholars I have posted above think it was so it is clearly with some foundation. I am looking for people, scholars etc, who have the other view that** can show or give good reason why this isn’t the case, why the other modernist scholars are wrong and for what reasons.**
They do not exist. Rather, just read scholars that beleve the word of G-d, i. e., Rashi, Rambam, Raban, ect.
Why not let linguistic issues bother? My point is it seems that there is some validity when Bible Dictionaries and Oxford and Yale are all exposing this theory. It seems there might be a little more than just linguistic titles being confused.
The dictionaries are written to support the popular writings, i. e., the strongs was written to support the KJV.
 
Better known as, a bunch of self important agnostic/atheist writing things to make money from non-believers.

They do not exist. Rather, just read scholars that beleve the word of G-d, i. e., Rashi, Rambam, Raban, ect.

The dictionaries are written to support the popular writings, i. e., the strongs was written to support the KJV.
You seem to assume these people are liars and deliberately fabricating stuff. While I heavily doubt that it doesn’t get rid of the issue. If they are fabricating stuff there should be lots of evidence why they are wrong. Heck one of the people who wrote on this was Kugel an orthodox jew (though not sure why he writes and his philosophy seems to be atheistic) but still he seems good natured and not like he would want to make lies. Same with the others. Why is it an obvious fabrication then?

It seems with the idea of charity in mind we should assume such things and even if we did it would be easily and widely debunked. But yet I’ve found many people who support the theory.
 
Thanks sounds like what I am looking for!

Just looked it up on amazon and it seems to be exactly what I am looking for if it covers the OT and the Jews at the start going into Canaan and the Exodus etc. Thanks 👍
Well there’s only about 100 pages in the 550 page book about this, a good overview and rebuttal to these claims that Abraham wasn’t a monotheist, but you might like it because of the footnotes to go deeper into this question. However a lot of these books are out of print, they date from around when this book was written, 1940s to 1970s.

Some scholars whose works he makes use of are K.A. Kitchen, Roland de Vaux, E. A. Speiser, William F. Albright, John Bright. These guys are experts on this period of history, Carroll is just the historian who weaves them together. There are dozens of sources these are just the names I see browsing in the footnotes now.
 
Well there’s only about 100 pages in the 550 page book about this, a good overview and rebuttal to these claims that Abraham wasn’t a monotheist, but you might like it because of the footnotes to go deeper into this question. However a lot of these books are out of print, they date from around when this book was written, 1940s to 1970s.

Some scholars whose works he makes use of are K.A. Kitchen, Roland de Vaux, E. A. Speiser, William F. Albright, John Bright. These guys are experts on this period of history, Carroll is just the historian who weaves them together. There are dozens of sources these are just the names I see browsing in the footnotes now.
Awesome and from James Kugel’s book (How to read the bible; a comparison of modern and ancient interpretation) I’ve gotten familiar with Albright and I’m familiar with Kitchen from the issue of the 600,000 out of the Exodus. This sounds exactly what I want and glad to see it confirmed that it deals with this issue and with a 100 pages (which is a lot lol; not just ‘only’).

Thanks!
 
Awesome and from James Kugel’s book (How to read the bible; a comparison of modern and ancient interpretation) I’ve gotten familiar with Albright and I’m familiar with Kitchen from the issue of the 600,000 out of the Exodus. This sounds exactly what I want and glad to see it confirmed that it deals with this issue and with a 100 pages (which is a lot lol; not just ‘only’).

Thanks!
You’re welcome, though just to be clear it’s about 100 pages on the relevant history in general of the Old Testament period from In the Beginning to splitting of Israel, not just on whether or not Abraham and his descendents were monotheists.

🙂
 
You’re welcome, though just to be clear it’s about 100 pages on the relevant history in general of the Old Testament period from In the Beginning to splitting of Israel, not just on whether or not Abraham and his descendents were monotheists.

🙂
I assumed so but just that it deals with the old testament and is conservative catholic is good as it seems there isn’t much out there; either it is more modernist (in which case I’d see what the modernists say and not liberal modernist catholics) or it doesn’t deal with the old testament almost like many people are like “Oh that? That’s Jewish we don’t need to deal with that.”
 
Much scholarship on anything Biblical is driven by the fact that anything that even seems to be advocating for a theory that “changes traditional interpretation” automatically gets tons of headlines and attention and therefore grant money. The fact of that matter is, many “theories” are out there but for every theory that takes one piece of evidence here or there out of proportion there are other theories that counteract it and say the opposite. The fact of the matter is we just don’t know so much about these things and part of the reason is because most scholarship behind it is being performed for an agenda (whether pro or against any claim of scripture or tradition) rather than just looking at the facts. The Catholic Church is doctrinally silent on all these matters so it’s really up to individual interpretation of the evidence… which is why everyone in this thread is giving their personal interpretation of these matters and doing a very good job of it, in my opinion.

Did the Israelites borrow the “Yahweh” of the Canaanite pantheon? Maybe the name. That’s about it. What matters is not so much whether or not that they borrowed anything but just how much of what they believed was different from all their neighbors. The fact that this one small group of people took the beliefs and ideologies of literally every culture surrounding them and didn’t just carry them but literally turn them right on their head is a fascinating reality that just can’t be ignored.

Consider what the first sentence of Genesis implies… “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was formless and empty and the spirit of God was hovering over the waters. And God said Let there be light, and there was light…” …etc.
  1. Unlike all their neighbors, one God creates everything for seemingly no reason.
  2. Unlike all their neighbors, God did not need to defeat any other gods/creatures in the “primordial waters” in order to form man.
  3. Unlike all their neighbors, God orders even the sun and the stars (no astrology!).
  4. Unlike their neighbors, God simply “speaks” [insert everything] into being. Very simply.
    …etc.
Basically they couldn’t get more opposite from everything their neighbors were doing theologically and philosophically. One has to wonder why that would be. The Israelites were not the only “shasu” (migrant workers) living in the delta region of Egypt and being exploited (it’s debated whether the “Shasu of Yhw” were indeed the Israelites), so to assume that they adopted their contrarian position merely as a response to being exploited by Egypt isn’t enough, although what we do see in the 10 Commandments and the Law itself is a repudiation of “slavery” in all its forms. In fact I’ve even read a “theory” (once again, just a theory) that Pharaoh Akenaten might’ve had his brush with “monotheism” after encountering the Israelites, or at least, perhaps had his brush with the same ideas that the Israelites did.

As many have labored to show in this thread, obviously what the Israelites did was they were profound skeptics for their age. The concept of the Abrahamic “God” was an idea that boiled everything down to its simplest form and tossed out a lot of “mythology” to do so. It’s seen primarily in its utter insistence that “God” is to be worshiped alone. Other cultures usually tolerated or allowed for the existence of other “gods”… but for the Israelites, theirs was one of exclusion. They rejected all “gods” … they rejected all human sacrifice… they rejected and rejected and rejected so much of the abominable things their neighbors were practicing, and boiled it all down to something very fundamental and reasonable… 1. There must be one “true God” that is being, from which all things that exist have their “being”… this God is “I Am” (“the God that is”)…etc. 2. This one God, who is existence, must’ve created all that exists and therefore given it it’s being… 3. why? we rejected the other Gods for God to be “jealous of” (interestingly) so this “one that is” must be something that desires all good things to exist… and therefore must be generous and giving (for having no reason to give one thing but that gave all things that exist for no other reason than its own good pleasure to do so…) …etc.

In their way of thinking what we see is the Jews incorporating some of the ideas of their surroundings but boiling them down to an extreme simplicity and trying to arrive at some “universal truth” of existence that would apply to everyone, everywhere, but then especially to them later on.
 
I assumed so but just that it deals with the old testament and is conservative catholic is good as it seems there isn’t much out there; either it is more modernist (in which case I’d see what the modernists say and not liberal modernist catholics) or it doesn’t deal with the old testament almost like many people are like “Oh that? That’s Jewish we don’t need to deal with that.”
Yeah Carroll’s book was fascinating, although it’s really the only scholarly work I’ve read on sacred history so I’m no expert on these things, but the Bibliography at the end is a real treasure as well, it would be very helpful for going deeper if you wanted to. Carroll puts in a short blurb on most works and gives their viewpoint as Jewish/Protestant/Modernist/orthodox Roman Catholic/secular humanist…
 
An interesting note in this link truthofyahweh.org/elohim2.html
I do not think that Abraham (Abram), before leaving Ur, ever used the words “El” or “Elohim” in referring, or calling out to, Yahweh; but I can not prove it. The oldest manuscripts that have been found only go back a few hundred years B.C.E. The oldest copy of a complete Bible (Leningrad Codex) was found in a geniza in Cairo, Egypt in 1008 C. E. Much later there were thousands of fragments of older Scriptures found at the same site, but these have been sitting in the Cambridge Museum in England for over 100 years waiting to be restored and translated. All of the existing Hebrew manuscripts use El or Elohim.
I personally believe that there was originally no generic word for Yahweh, and that the Canaanite exposure caused this concept to be permanently planted into the Hebrew language.
This, at least as I have understood it, seems to indicate the idea that any autograph manuscripts before Israel and Canaanite ever interacted wouldn’t have el or its numerous developments (Elohim, El Shaddai, etc) in it. However after the interaction between the two cultures Israel used it to fill a linguistic hole, a general term for god. This seems to have at least some backing in that all the diminutives of god (general not personal names) in hebrew seem to go back to el in some way (see above examples of Elohim and El Shaddai as Strong’s lists them both going back to the root el).
 
You seem to assume these people are liars and deliberately fabricating stuff. While I heavily doubt that it doesn’t get rid of the issue. If they are fabricating stuff there should be lots of evidence why they are wrong. Heck one of the people who wrote on this was Kugel an orthodox jew (though not sure why he writes and his philosophy seems to be atheistic) but still he seems good natured and not like he would want to make lies. Same with the others. Why is it an obvious fabrication then?
Don’t get me wrong, they believe every word that they write. Just because they think that they know more than G-d, does not make them right.

As for this Kugel, he’s one out of a thousand. So do you want to follow him, or the thousand upon thousands that agree with G-d ? The choice is always yours.

As for me i stand by G-d and His infallible Word.
It seems with the idea of charity in mind we should assume such things and even if we did it would be easily and widely debunked.
It is.
But yet I’ve found many people who support the theory.
“The road to hell is wide and smooth, while the road to heaven is steep and hard.”
 
Don’t get me wrong, they believe every word that they write. Just because they think that they know more than G-d, does not make them right.

As for this Kugel, he’s one out of a thousand. So do you want to follow him, or the thousand upon thousands that agree with G-d ? The choice is always yours.

As for me i stand by G-d and His infallible Word.

It is.

“The road to hell is wide and smooth, while the road to heaven is steep and hard.”
You seem to just gloss over these people’s arguments. Saying more people following G-d isn’t any reason, you should following the evidence and truth.
 
You seem to just gloss over these people’s arguments. Saying more people following G-d isn’t any reason, you should following the evidence and truth.
But their arguments are nothing but nonsense.
 
Great they’re nonsense, now why are they nonsense? Why is it that their arguments hold no water.
Because, they are trying to misdirect people into believing that G-d does not truly exist, but rather is nothing more than the pagan gods in new clothes.

If this was true, then the bible could not contain truths about the future. And every bible believer knows the truth of prophecy.

Their arguments are the same as evolution, an excuse for not believing in G-d.
 
Because, they are trying to misdirect people into believing that G-d does not truly exist, but rather is nothing more than the pagan gods in new clothes.

If this was true, then the bible could not contain truths about the future. And every bible believer knows the truth of prophecy.

Their arguments are the same as evolution, an excuse for not believing in G-d.
Except you are starting off with things that they don’t accept. That the Bible contains truth of the future, most modernist scholars don’t accept that. These aren’t reasons to reject their thoughts that Elohim etc might indicate that Israel at its start came from polytheistic Canaanite pagan gods and not from diving revelation from a one true god.
 
Stumbled upon this by Tim Gray (who has been on Catholic Answers before so seems rather conservative) Walking With God: A Journey through the Bible

which deals with pagan worship in the Kingly period. Mostly deals with Baal and the consort Ashirah.

Also of note is Albright’s book Yahweh and the Gods of Canaan: A Historical Analysis Yahweh and the Gods of Canaan: A Historical Analysis of
 
More books and mentions.

From The Cambridge Dictionary of Judaism and Jewish Culture

imgur.com/a/4QwJL

This makes less of a definite statement but is definitely in the modernist view suggestion at least a correlation but I think has stronger suggestive phrasing similar to Oxford above (and Wikipedia, copied bellow)

**According to The Oxford Companion to World Mythology,

It seems almost certain that the God of the Jews evolved gradually from the Canaanite El, who was in all likelihood the ‘God of Abraham’… If El was the high God of Abraham—Elohim, the prototype of Yahveh—Asherah was his wife, and there are archaeological indications that she was perceived as such before she was in effect ‘divorced’ in the context of emerging Judaism of the 7th century BCE. (See 2 Kings 23:15)".[27]**

There is also treatment on the Cambridge book (on the same page as the texts above) that deals with Asherah in a similar light as Oxford does.

On a more conservative note is Richard Hess (the author of the reasonable faith link in the first section) who wrote

Israelite Religions: An Archaeological and Biblical Survey

which seems to be an excellent scholarly conservative, historical centrist / maximist (to borrow phrasing from a Amazon review) on Israel’s history.
 
This from Wikipedia (El) on Frank Moore Cross
But others have argued that from patriarchal times, these different names were in fact generally understood to refer to the same single great god, Ēl. This is the position of Frank Moore Cross (1973).[26] What is certain is that the form ’El does appear in Israelite names from every period including the name Yiśrā’ēl (“Israel”), meaning “El strives” or “struggled with El”.
Though I have to do more research into what of Cross’ writings they are referring to because the book I read of his seemed to come to the opposite conclusion (that Yahweh came out of El, though it might be a phrasing issue or I might misunderstand what Wikipedia is trying to say).

All the references in the Wikipedia article that reference Cross reference his work Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic which when I looked over it seemed to be in line with the modernist approach just as the Oxford Mythology Dictionary held.

Also of note is this Developments in Ancient Israelite Religion as a Tool for Dating Hebrew Bible Authorship By Jason Korner

jbu.edu/assets/academics/journal/resource/file/2008/Korner.pdf

(Before the edit gets locked) this seems like a GREAT summary and readable version of Cross’ Myth and Epic book as Cross while a scholar was rather hard to read, as evidence by my difficulty understanding his views as reiterated throughout this thread.

The authors own description reads
This paper attempts to date the origins of authorship for parts of the Hebrew Bible. By examining parallels between the Canaanite god El and the Hebrew god of Yahweh, I argue that the patriarchal narratives have origins in the mid-second millennium B.C.E. In observing the Israelite condemnation of Baal worship during the divided monarchy, I argue in favor of dating the original authorship of Exodus before the ninth century B.C.E. due to the book’s lack of Baal condemnation. In addition to this, the changing role of Yahweh in the divine council as seen throughout Hebrew Bible leads to the conclusion that Israel’s understanding of Yahweh changed over time. Therefore, the origins of certain Hebrew Scriptures can be dated according to the role of Yahweh in the divine council.
It functions as a, so far, readable yet scholarly overview of El and Yahweh, from the article:
Some scholars contend that El is the god of Israel, and therefore Yahweh. While other scholars insist that the Hebrew and Canaanite people merged the gods El and Yahweh to form the Israelite god Yahweh. Still others argue that El and Yahweh are two completely different gods who share common characteristics, but never merge as one god.
It cites so far Kitchen, Cross, Smith.

(note this quote use to be part of the main body seems more of an offshoot and sums up some of the positions, liberal or conservative, of some big name scholars cited)
Kitchen - Evangelical and conservative. First ran into him in his treatment of the Exodus 600,000 and the issues around that. Seems to be a respected scholar as well (so not fully apologetic (tangent: Kugel, mentioned in this thread, has a appendix I to his book How to read the bible that touches on apologetics and scholarship).
Smith - Seems to be liberal though he does have some identification and roles in Catholic Biblical Study he seems, like Raymond Brown, to be liberal, almost to the point that it would seem atheistic. Might not be as far as Brown (who was definitely more atheist then Catholic) (heck Brown gave his own book an imprimatur seems rather fishy lol).
Cross - Well within modern scholarship though a bit conservative maybe, of note was a book by the Biblical Archeology group interviewing him.
From the above link,

HB I assume stands for Holy Bible, seems rather religious for a academic setting huh.
Throughout the biblical text, the authors of the HB use the Semitic word “El” to refer to
both Yahweh and the Canaanite god El. This, of course, leads to much debate over the origins of Yahweh, and his development as the god of the Israelites. Some scholars, such as Mark S. Smith and Rainer Albertz, insist the people of the Levant gradually fused the Canaanite god El and the Hebrew god Yahweh into one god Yahweh over a period of time,
Also of note out of Utah content.lib.utah.edu/utils/getfile/collection/etd2/id/1761/filename/850.pdf
MIDDLE GROUND: THE CANAANITE AND NON-CANAANITE ORIGINS OF ANCIENT ISRAEL AS EVIDENCED BY THE GODS AND GODDESS THEY WORSHIPPED
by
Brent Albert Reiser
Haven’t read but of note.
 
If I was drinking something I may have spit it out, I stumbled upon this link in Amazon (from the IVP OT book referenced in JBU).

amazon.com/The-Bible-among-Myths-Revelation/dp/0310285097/ref=pd_cp_b_0

The Bible among the Myths: Unique Revelation or Just Ancient Literature?
Sixty years ago, most biblical scholars maintained that Israel’s religion was unique—that it stood in marked contrast to the faiths of its ancient Near Eastern neighbors. Nowadays, it is widely argued that Israel’s religion mirrors that of other West Semitic societies. What accounts for this radical change, and what are its implications for our understanding of the Old Testament? Dr. John N. Oswalt says the root of this new attitude lies in Western society’s hostility to the idea of revelation, which presupposes a reality that transcends the world of the senses, asserting the existence of a realm humans cannot control. While not advocating a “the Bible says it, and I believe it, and that settles it” point of view, Oswalt asserts convincingly that while other ancient literatures all see reality in essentially the same terms, the Bible differs radically on all the main points. The Bible Among the Myths supplies a necessary corrective to those who reject the Old Testament’s testimony about a transcendent God who breaks into time and space and reveals himself in and through human activity.
Not sure how good it is just stumbled upon it but worth noting as it seems to rather directly deal with the issues here. 👍
 
Except you are starting off with things that they don’t accept. That the Bible contains truth of the future, most modernist scholars don’t accept that. These aren’t reasons to reject their thoughts that Elohim etc might indicate that Israel at its start came from polytheistic Canaanite pagan gods and not from diving revelation from a one true god.
Because, they do not believe in prophecy. Prophecy is a message from G-d with a future event included, so that the men of the day can tell a true prophet from a false prophet.

(Deu 18:22 BBE) When a prophet makes a statement in the name of the Lord, if what he says does not take place and his words do not come true, then his word is not the word of the Lord: the words of the prophet were said in the pride of his heart, and you are to have no fear of him.

This is how a true prophet can be known.
 
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