Foundations of the Church

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Originally Posted by Dan_471

possibly… I think there’s different versions of Paul’s chronology… and it depends if one wants to try to match it up with Galatians… that kind of discussion, tho, usually takes a lot of flipping back and forth from one Bible verse to another… difficult to do on an internet forum… also, imo, not very interesting… there’s much more interesting things we can learn from each other, imo…

It can’t be ignored that Paul was looking for support for his message.
well… I don’t see anything in Galatians that indicates that Paul was looking for support for his message… it looks to me like he’s looking for fellowship… acceptance as a person…
That’s how Jesus set it up.
well, I think that’s an assumption, there… I mean, yes, you can certainly read the Scriptures that way… I think a more natural reading is that Paul thinks his message came directly from Jesus, and he visits the other Apostles to see if he can get acceptance into the larger Church, not really so much to see if his message is ‘ok’…
Peter is to be the one to confirm/strengthen his brothers [Lk 22:32]
again, sure, a possible reading… and again, if Jesus said that… aren’t we all called to ‘strengthen’ our brothers and sisters?..looks like there’s more than one way to read that ‘strengthen/confirm’ word, so it’s a matter of interpretation for the reader… also, if it is prophesied that Peter will strengthen fellow Christians, it must be a transitory or on/off thing, because he sows seeds of hypocrisy in Galatia…
Quote:
Originally Posted by D

OK, now this is kind of a crux, here, I think… Paul doesn’t say he’s going to have his version of the Gospel checked out… he may be going to Jerusalem to straighten out the other guys, and get the right hand of fellowship…
who was worried about running in vain? It was Paul.
yes, possibly because after all he’d been through, he didn’t want someone just handing him over to the Jewish leaders that were upset at him…
Quote:
Originally Posted by D
that’s one possible reading… Paul wants to be sure his efforts are on the right track with the other Apostles… to me, a more reasonable reading is that people are trying to kill him, he runs, and meets with James and Peter ‘privately’, so that he didn’t spend all that time ‘off the grid’ in vain…
yes, well-said by me, I say…
Quote:
Originally Posted by D
now, my impression, and I could be wrong about this, is that the James on the Mount is the brother of John, who is killed early-on in Acts, while the James leader-of-the-church in Jerusalem is the brother of Jesus, a different James…
Mary the mother of Jesus had 1 child… Jesus alone. She had no other children from her womb. James called “brother” in the case of one of the James in the Gospel, is a relative.
right, brother in the sense of ‘cousin’… I’m cool with that…
Paul says he meets with ‘James the brother of the Lord’ (quoted from memory)… there is also James the brother of John, the sons of Zebedee… I think James the bro of John is the one on the Mount of Transfiguration, James the bro of the Lord is the Big Guy in Jerusalem…
Quote:
Originally Posted by D
well, actually, if Titus wasn’t feeling compelled to be circumcised, then it doesn’t really look like a problem for him… the problem would be that certain parts of the church (James and sometimes Peter) are into compelling Gentiles to live like Jews, while Paul and the Gentile wing of the church have no real problems with this…
You have that backwards.
I don’t think so…
Peter is the one who tells everyone they are not to put a yoke around the gentile’s necks re: the law.
in Acts he tells them that…(maybe somewhere else too?)… in Galatians, he’s ‘compelling’ Gentiles to live like Jews…
 
Paul is the one who had others observe the law.
I’m not familiar with that part… is this the Paul before the conversion? you got me curious, now…
Quote:
Originally Posted by D

if Peter is head over the entire church, that brings us back to the original question of why Paul presents him as more part of the problem than part of the solution… if one reads Galatians, and doesn’t try to squeeze it to fit with other books of the Bible, just let it speak in it’s own context, I think Paul present Peter as someone he loves dearly as a brother, and also who needs occasional correction to stay on the straight course…
Acts 15 Peter settles the matter in council over the law and Gentiles.
well, in Galatians, Peter isn’t settling things, kind of the opposite… in Acts, he steps right up, indicating to me, as the most natural reading, that the writer of Acts had kind of a different motive than Paul… (Acts wanting to show how the whole church fit together, and worked things out with everyone on board, Paul writing Galatians, just plowing ahead with the idea that Gentiles shouldn’t be concerned with the Law, especially the circumcision part…
Gentiles aren’t to be saddled with the Mosaic laws. THEN what does Paul himself do in Acts 16:1-4, directly after getting the decree that says that they are not to circumcise others?
I don’t think the Acts decree says you can’t circumcise other people, I think it more says, ‘here’s four laws to keep’ and circumcision isn’t one of them… it’s Paul (working from memory here) in Galatians that says if a person is circumcised, then Christ is of no value to them… that would lead me to think that the writer of Acts doesn’t know Paul very well, or maybe Paul is one whacked-out dude…
1 And he came also to Derbe and to Lystra. A disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer; but his father was a Greek. 2 He was well spoken of by the brethren at Lystra and Iconium. 3 Paul wanted Timothy to accompany him; and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews that were in those places, for they all knew that his father was a Greek. 4 As they went on their way through the cities, they delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem.
Paul forces Timothy to be circumcised
he forces him? wow…
for appearances sake, for the Jews, despite the letter from the apostles, that confirm Peter’s teaching, saying otherwise. Does that mean that Paul is an errant teacher,
starting to sound like it… or maybe just a whacked-out person…
and that when he writes all those epistles we should disregard their teachings because of this hypocrisy?
the ones that were written under the influence of the alledged hyprcrisy, yes, I think…
Paul actually learned from Peter.
While Paul later in his travels explains HIS behavior by saying, to the Gentiles he becomes as a Gentile, to win them over, as to the Jews he became a Jew so that some might be saved. [1 cor 9:20] This is exactly what Peter did earlier with the gentiles and was rebuked by Paul for it.
not quite… Peter is around Gentiles, and while there resumes acting Jewish…
Then Paul embraces this behavior for himself
No book can be taken in isolation. There’s always the entire context to consider.
of course… now, it’s good to read with a critical mind also, yes?

Let’s go with what you wrote above, with Peter as the not-in-favor-of-the-law person, and Paul being the in-favor person… well, then we have an example of not all the Apostles teaching the same thing… also, we have a good example of Paul, by his actions, not presenting Peter as head of the church… I suppose one could always say that Paul knew Peter was head, and just decided to go ahead with the circumcision anyways… well, that would give us the pattern of “Peter is the head of the church, but it’s no big deal if one does what he says or not”… I suppose one could say that Paul wasn’t really thinking or got carried away in the moment or something… but a circumcision isn’t really something you do by accident… I think it’s interesting that Paul never (that I know of) expresses remorse for the alleged circumcising… or disregarding of the decree…tho he does for persecuting the church…
 
well… I don’t see anything in Galatians that indicates that Paul was looking for support for his message… it looks to me like he’s looking for fellowship… acceptance as a person…

well, I think that’s an assumption, there… I mean, yes, you can certainly read the Scriptures that way… I think a more natural reading is that Paul thinks his message came directly from Jesus, and he visits the other Apostles to see if he can get acceptance into the larger Church, not really so much to see if his message is ‘ok’…
Gal 2:1* Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me. 2 I went up by revelation; and I laid before them (but privately before those who were of repute) the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, lest somehow I should be running or had run in vain.

Why did the HS prompt Paul to go to Jerusalem after 14 years?.Why lay out his preaching for them to judge if he was running in vain? The context is, Paul is looking for validation on his teaching
D:
again, sure, a possible reading… and again, if Jesus said that… aren’t we all called to ‘strengthen’ our brothers and sisters?..looks like there’s more than one way to read that ‘strengthen/confirm’ word, so it’s a matter of interpretation for the reader… also, if it is prophesied that Peter will strengthen fellow Christians, it must be a transitory or on/off thing, because he sows seeds of hypocrisy in Galatia…
The context of Lk 22:24…] is clear. It’s an argument over primacy. (which one is the greatest among THEM). Satan who was in the room, got them into an argument. Jesus tells the apostles this but He tells THEM through Peter what Satan wants to do. AND Jesus confirms one of THEM is the greatest. Then Jesus shows who is the greates among the apostles. As Jesus does so often, He says to Peter, (singular) He didn’t say this to the rest of the apostles, it was Peter who would strengthen THEM not the other way around.

24 A dispute also arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25 Jesus said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26 But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves. 28 You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 31 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat.32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”
D:
Paul says he meets with ‘James the brother of the Lord’ (quoted from memory)… there is also James the brother of John, the sons of Zebedee… I think James the bro of John is the one on the Mount of Transfiguration, James the bro of the Lord is the Big Guy in Jerusalem…
James, Epistle of Saint - The author is commonly identified with the Lord’s brother, the Bishop of Jerusalem; the view that the Lord’s brother must be identified with James, the son of Alpheus, is by far the most probable
James the Greater, Saint - son of Zebedee and brother of John.
James the Less, Saint - son of Alpheus, the brother of the Lord i.e. cousin
D:
the problem would be that certain parts of the church (James and sometimes Peter) are into compelling Gentiles to live like Jews, while Paul and the Gentile wing of the church have no real problems with this…

in Acts he tells them that…(maybe somewhere else too?)… in Galatians, he’s ‘compelling’ Gentiles to live like Jews…
Peter in council [Acts 15] ruled against putting Mosaic law around the necks of Gentile converts. Paul otoh, In Acts 16:1-3 took a disciple named Timothy… and on account of the Jews of that region, had Timothy a gentile, circumcised. Then Acts 18:18, Acts 21: 18-26 Paul shaved his head, purified himself and made sacrifice according to the Mosaic law, which he had previously said is no longer to be followed.

Paul explains himself by saying, to the Gentiles he becomes as a Gentile, to win them over, as to the Jews he became a Jew so that some might be saved. [1 cor 9:20] This is exactly what Peter did earlier with the gentiles so he wouldn’t lose any of them, and was rebuked by Paul for it. Then Paul embraces this behavior for himself…
 
Dan…

Our prayer is not " God tell me if Book of Mormon is true, or Is Buddha true ".
God does not answer that prayer …as you discovered, since your conscience
well, I’m not totally sure it was my conscience…
gave u a thumbs up on both.

Rather, pray as Christ taught us in scripture, and as Peter taught the new converts to do on Pentecost, when the Church was born and 3000 people were converted.
Oh, yes, definitely… I’ve prayed those prayers…
Once you follow the GuideBook/Rules that Christ & Church gave us …then you will get the CONFIRMATION that your prayers for truth were indeed answered.
yes, and I feel I did get the confirmation… I just wanted to post here in case I missed something… and actaully, at this point, it’s become really fun!
 
I’m not familiar with that part… is this the Paul before the conversion? you got me curious, now…

well, in Galatians, Peter isn’t settling things, kind of the opposite… in Acts, he steps right up, indicating to me, as the most natural reading, that the writer of Acts had kind of a different motive than Paul… (Acts wanting to show how the whole church fit together, and worked things out with everyone on board, Paul writing Galatians, just plowing ahead with the idea that Gentiles shouldn’t be concerned with the Law, especially the circumcision part…

I don’t think the Acts decree says you can’t circumcise other people, I think it more says, ‘here’s four laws to keep’ and circumcision isn’t one of them… it’s Paul (working from memory here) in Galatians that says if a person is circumcised, then Christ is of no value to them… that would lead me to think that the writer of Acts doesn’t know Paul very well, or maybe Paul is one whacked-out dude…

he forces him? wow…

starting to sound like it… or maybe just a whacked-out person…

the ones that were written under the influence of the alledged hyprcrisy, yes, I think…

not quite… Peter is around Gentiles, and while there resumes acting Jewish…

of course… now, it’s good to read with a critical mind also, yes?

Let’s go with what you wrote above, with Peter as the not-in-favor-of-the-law person, and Paul being the in-favor person… well, then we have an example of not all the Apostles teaching the same thing…
What we have is consistency of teaching, it’s some actions that didn’t match the teaching. The Judaizers were the ones weak in their new faith. They were steeped in Mosaic law. So Peter not out of maliciousness to the doctrine being preached, did things Jewish so not to offend the Judaizers. Paul rebuked Peter for doing that. Then Paul acts the same and goes even further, and it looks like he gives himself a pass. In effect, Paul learned a valuable lesson from Peter. Don’t be so rigid that one loses new converts, and prospective converts, to the faith.
D:
also, we have a good example of Paul, by his actions, not presenting Peter as head of the church… I suppose one could always say that Paul knew Peter was head, and just decided to go ahead with the circumcision anyways… well, that would give us the pattern of “Peter is the head of the church, but it’s no big deal if one does what he says or not”… I suppose one could say that Paul wasn’t really thinking or got carried away in the moment or something… but a circumcision isn’t really something you do by accident… I think it’s interesting that Paul never (that I know of) expresses remorse for the alleged circumcising… or disregarding of the decree…tho he does for persecuting the church…
And not everything got written down.
 
When Paul was worried he was running in vain, the Greek word for vain [Gal 2:2] is

Vain κενός kenos]
  1. empty, vain, devoid of trutha) of places, vessels, etc. which contain nothing
    b) of men
  2. empty handed
  3. without a giftc) metaph. destitute of spiritual wealth, of one who boasts of his faith as a transcendent possession, yet is without the fruits of faith
    d) metaph. of endeavours, labours, acts, which result in nothing, vain, fruitless, without effect
yes, without effect… that’s the meaning I was thinking of…
  1. vain of no purpose
That’s why Paul was seeking validation for his message.
Doesn’t look to me like we know that yet…
It’s also why Jesus told Peter, in front of all the apostles, it would be Peter who would be the one to strenghten THEM,
yes, if He did in fact say that… all the more reason it’s important for Paul to set him straight…
his brothers, in their trials [Lk 22:32] because Jesus prays especially for Peter
I haven’t heard this before… is this found in the early Scriptures… a later tradition?..
in this role which He gave Peter… and i.e in extension, when Peter strengthens the Church __________________
strengthening the church is great, I’m all for that… maybe that’s why Paul is so disturbed when he sees Peter doing something that increases the hypocrisy in the church…
 
Of course, the only reason we know the basic truths about Jesus is because the Church has taught them down through the ages.
well, I was taking a bit of a different tack, here, I think… I was once listening to a podcast with Gary Habermas (defeated Antony Flew in a debate some decades ago), and he made the claim that with just 4 statements about the historical Jesus, ones that most reasonable New Testament scholars, even the most liberal, would agree with, then he could show that the resurrection was the best historical explanation for events around the historical Jesus… it was much easier, of course, with about 7-11 truths, and so on… so what I was wondering was, if one accepted that Jesus rose from the dead, and therefore was someone worth taking notice of, where did that leave you? become a strict Bible-oriented “the Bible says” sort of person? become a Catholic? seems interesting to me that Jesus would rise from the dead, yet not leave some distinct instructions about what to do… unless He did, of course… or maybe not so strange, maybe Jesus wanted us to focus on the main themes, like love your neighbor, don’t try to amass wealth… just those things…

yes, most of the people who recorded/preserved stuff were part of the Church… some heretics tho… and non-Christians…
In practice, we don’t begin with Jesus, but with the Church, which then teaches us about Jesus.
ok, good… now what would make you start with the Church, and not, say, the Eastern Orthodox, or Southern Baptists?
We wouldn’t have knowledge of Jesus to begin with without the Church.
ok, now I could be wrong here, but that sounds to me like saying that we wouldn’t know about the inner workings of the Soviet government without the documents left behind, almost all of them produced by members of the Soviet government… so we should start by believing that those members always told the truth, and go from there… well, sometimes people have reasons for coloring their reports, or exaggerating…
There are no basic truths to begin with that haven’t already been given by the Church. So, if the Church isn’t God’s instrument for communicating truth, then we don’t know what truth is at all.
right, seems kind of like a giant circle, tho… how would we know that the Church is God’s instrument for communicating the truth?
 
Of course, the only reason we know the basic truths about Jesus is because the Church has taught them down through the ages. In practice, we don’t begin with Jesus, but with the Church, which then teaches us about Jesus. We wouldn’t have knowledge of Jesus to begin with without the Church.

There are no basic truths to begin with that haven’t already been given by the Church. So, if the Church isn’t God’s instrument for communicating truth, then we don’t know what truth is at all.
Or maybe I was misunderstanding you here… maybe you weren’t talking about something that goes in a circle at all, but just starting with the Church and going in a straight line from there… I could see that… then I would wonder why choose the Church to start with? … also, do most Catholics see it this way? if so, why have an apologetics forum? if this is how it is, then I’m thinking the only real ‘apologetic’ would be to say, “start by accepting that the Church is true and right”…
 
Keep in mind Paul rebukes Peter’s behavior, not Peter’s doctrine.
well, I have to disagree with you there… Paul says that Peter is not on the right road in line with the gospel of truth… sounds to me like some doctrine issues are in there… also, Paul goes on to imply that Peter is compelling gentiles to live like Jews… that would be a doctrinal issue, I think…
Jerome in his discussion with Augustine (link was provided), implies the question, why did Peter do what he did? The answer is, so not to lose the people he was working with because they were fragile in their new faith. (paraphrased)
yeah, unfortunately, he does so, according to Paul, by engaging in hypocrisy… and leading others to do so also… perhaps Paul is wrong here about Peter engaging in hypocrisy… but then that leads us back to what else is Paul wrong about?
So Jerome asks (as an interlocutor) why did you Paul,take your disciple Timothy… and on account of the Jews of that region, have Timothy a gentile, circumcised. [Acts 16:1-3] Acts 18:18, Acts 21: 18-26 shave your head, purify yourself and make sacrifice according to the Mosaic law, which you previously said is no longer effecting you
well, two things I’ve noted before… here Paul is living like a Jew among Jewish people, different from living Jewish in a gentile church… also, the account in Acts may not be accurate… it sure doesn’t sound like the Paul of Galatians
Let’s face it, there’s a big difference between Peter withdrawing from eating with someone, and Paul circumcizing his disciple (a gentile not a Jew)
well, the ‘eating with’ may have been the Lord’s Supper, in which case I’d say it’s a big deal…
on account of of the Jews Paul was trying to evangelize in the region, and performing acts of the Mosaic law for appearance sake, which he says aren’t binding on him anymore.
I know… doesn’t really make sense, does it? pretty much all scholars say Galatians is written by Paul, many fewer say that Acts is accurate… I think that’s best explanation…
Bottomline, Peter’s action that drew rebuke from Paul, was tame compared to Paul’s actions.
so both Peter and Paul’s actions were bad, but Paul’s was worse? then my question is if a church leader is doing something wrong,
as both Peter and Paul are doing here, do we have to follow them? could Timothy have said, No, Paul, what your about to do here is clearly wrong?
And Paul writes

1 Cor 9:20
To the Jews
yes, to the Jews… he doesn’t say what he does in mixed company…
I became like a Jew, to win the Jews.
in Peter’s case, they are ‘from James’, so I would think they are already ‘won’… if not, why is James sending unbelievers, or newb believers, into the danger zone?
To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.
So how do we conclude this?
looks to me like I’ve offered a few great solutions above…
could one say Paul learned a valuable lesson from Peter about effective evangelization practices and he became more flexible in certain disciplines?. As long as one doesn’t compromise doctrine, there’s flexibility of behavior with people you’re working with, so not to lose them?
well, in Peter’s case, it kind of looks like he’s in danger of losing the gentile believers… into whose area he is visiting… the visitors
from James shouldn’t be in danger of being lost, … imo…
Maybe you’re asking, where/when does one draw the line on compromise and flexibility? __________________
well, more what I’m asking, or want to ask, is how someone could read Gal 2, and come away thinking that Paul is presenting Peter as the leader of the church? I can understand if one says that it must be read in context with the whole Bible… then who gets to choose what is the whole Bible? the church? if so, then I think we’re back to 'first accept that the church is always right, then go from there… Hey, great discussion so far, I’m thinking…
 
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steve_b:
yo steve… I just wanted to say that when I wrote my response to #103, I talked about saying something several times… then I realized that because of time lag (as in, I’m responding to things written several months ago…), you might not have read those ‘several times’ when you wrote #103… well, anyways, have a good one… see you around!!
 
I think the spirit behind Pio’s use of doubt and insult, in that phrase is

Doubt in God, is like one saying to God, I will not believe .
sure, I can go with that… at the same time, does God want us to believe everything we’re told? like, does He really want us to believe that Joseph Smith really did find some tablets?
That’s in effect, one’s own personal insult to the Divinity. It’s like the episode in [Jn 6:66]. They would not believe and walked away. And what did Jesus do? He didn’t go after them. He let them go. Instead He turned and asked His apostles are you going to leave me to?
yes… I think it’s interesting that they all did leave Him later… except maybe John, if I remember right… then of course they came back…
IOW do you believe or not?
Yes, I think Jesus had just worked a really cool miracle… so the disciples had a good basis for believing…
He wasn’t going to leave that moment alone. He wanted an answer from His apostles. And He received the right answer from them.
yes, and I think believing is great… just a matter of finding the right things to believe in… Peter here (yes, speaking for the Twelve) says that Jesus’ words have eternal life… or words to that effect… so Peter has really strong reasons for believing… I’ll go with that… I agree with Peter there…
 
That’s good too. Both speak of truth. So I think both are a positive message.
yes, both are a positive message… the ‘mountains’ quote has words in it like ‘lovely’, ‘good’, and even ‘mountains’ and ‘news’… the Pio quote has ‘doubt’ and ‘insult’, so I think the ‘mountains’ quote leaves the reader with a more positive feeling…
 
Quote: Originally Posted by Dan_471 They’re not there on James’ advice? then I think an easy solution would have been for Peter to simply say, ‘you folks go back to Judea and ask James if you’re supposed to be here… and while you’re at it, here, take this letter from me to James helping to clear up this whole situation…’ then nobody gets hurt, there’s no cunfusion…

The advantage of a council,
yes, the council is good… I’m not saying don’t have the council… I just saying that telling the newbie believers (if that’s what they were) that it’s not safe for them there is better than refusing to eat with gentiles… imo…
many ears, who need to hear a message, hear the message at all at once. Given the times, and difficulties in getting messages circulated far and wide, this is a very efficient way to make sure everyone at once is on the same page before they go out and teach.
yes, I agree… tho, of course, Paul and his friends are already out there teaching… actually, I think what the council decides is different from what Paul was teaching in his letters… Paul says gentiles don’t need to follow the Law, the council reduces the number of Laws down to four… so, I think the gentiles still need to keep certain parts of the Law, according to the council…
Quote: Originally Posted by D

also, then are you into the ‘James was a Judiazer’ thinking?
No. Judaizers were Jewish converts who hadn’t fully divested themselves of “works of the law”.
well, not fully… actually they were very much into keeping the Law, I think… so very much invested… are they there with James’ permission/recommendation? are they there as a sort of leaderless band? if so, looks like an excellent opportunity for Peter so set them back on the right course…
These particular Judaizers in question, happen to come from James diocese. But all the apostles had judaizers in their flocks.
well, actually, that doesn’t really make sense to me… if there were already judaizers in Paul’s area, why would Peter have to change his behaviour just because some new ones came from James’ area? yes, I do agree that there were judaizers all over the place, but these folks that come from James seem to be different from the rest… perhaps they have more authority than just the run-of-the-mill wandering teachers…
 
some more thoughts on the Peter taking care of newbie believers by not eating with gentiles approach… once they (the newbs) leave that particular area, won’t they probably stumble upon some other fellowship where jews and gentiles are eating together? then Peter’s efforts would have all been in vain, and he would have hurt the gentile believers for nothing… why not simply tell the newbs, ‘go back to James, go directly to James, do not pass go, do not visit any gentile fellowships, until we can straighten this whole thing out… also, what is James teaching, that people are coming out of his area thinking this is what the gospel is? … also, Barnabas joins with Peter in the ‘hypocrisy’ (Paul’s word)… does Barnabas not understand what’s going on either?.. or does he understand what Peter’s doing… maybe most everyone there does… maybe it’s just Paul who doesn’t get it… but then that makes Paul look like a very out of touch person, or maybe a bit insane… why not just ask around for some other people’s take on what’s happening before blasting Peter? … also, how does Peter’s approach protect anyone? wouldn’t already be well-known in that area that he ate with gentiles? are the people from James thinking that they’re helping Peter repent or something? … also, what will happen with these newb believers at some later time when they hear the decision of the council and learn that it was ok to eat with gentiles this whole time? are they going to think ‘Peter was just fooling us’? would they wonder, along with everyone else, what else Peter was just fooling about? … imo, it’s a pretty strained reading, I think, to portray these as newb believers just from James’ area… why not say that they are strong believers, who don’t need coddling… and are there because James sent them?
 
Quote: Originally Posted by D 'cuz then we would have an example of an Apostle being wrong about a key point of the Gospel… then again we could solve any Paul/James controversy just by saying that James didn’t really understand what was going on… also, James or any other Apostle could’ve been wrong about Peter being head of the Church…
well, it looks like Paul (or James) then actually could be wrong about some things… the important thing is that Peter and the councils are always there to straighten them out… and actually then my point about Paul not really presenting Peter as the leader of the church could easily fit… it’s just that Paul was wrong about that… so the whole thing really just starts with assuming that Peter is the leader… and everything else falls into place after that…
because Satan asked and was granted to sift THEM like wheat. That’s who got them in the argument in the 1st place. But it was going to be Peter who would be the one to confirm and strengthen THEM…through the sifting. And we know, Satan doesn’t quit. He keeps sifting.

Bottom line, we see Peter, in council, after much debate, decide the issue, ending further discussion. Just as Jesus prayed for.
doesn’t look to me like Peter ends the discussion… also, Peter (according to Paul) leads other brothers into hypocrisy… not what Jesus prayed for… or predicted, if He actually said that…
Quote: Originally Posted by D we don’t know that the discussion ended there… that’s one possible reading… to me, the more natural reading is that the discussion continues until they decide to write the letter…
Since apostolic Tradition is both oral & written, and both are authoritative, [2 Thes 2:15…]
sorry, I’m not following you here… what do you mean?
we don’t see the idea that you propose in either oral or written form
well, in Acts 15, other people are recorded as talking/‘discussing’ after Peter speaks, so I think that people did continue talking and discussing after Peter spoke… if the account in Acts is accurate…
Quote: Originally Posted by D
also, if Peter has the ability to speak and thus ending discussion, why doesn’t he do that in Galatia… or Antioch… or wherever they are when Paul confronts him? I think that would have been a much better way to handle it…
Haren’t we covered this one before?
possibly… with the time lag, it wouldn’t hurt to cover it again… perhaps Peter could write a letter settling the matter… it looks like other Apostles don’t have trouble writing letters about matters that haven’t yet been decided in council… I think a better explanation is that Peter knows on some level that he’s wrong, that he’s not ‘on the right road’…
Peace be to y’all!
[/QUOTE]
 
(continued)
right, and I agree with the advantages of a council, many ears, all hearing the same message at the same time… but couldn’t Peter at least have written a letter saying ‘this issue is still up in the air… many different voices in the church teaching different things… nobody make any pronouncements until we meet in council’… that sounds like a good idea to me…
 
Quote: Originally Posted by Dan_471 well, because historical documents could be true or false, and objects of faith are assumed to be true…

Since we’re talking about scripture, as “historical documents”, in order to be an article of faith the Church would have had to rule on it. Therefore, once something is made an article of faith, one doesn’t have to worry about falsehoods.
well, let’s see then… so, the scriptures are reliable because the church says so, and we know the church is the right church because the scriptures say so… do you see any circularity there?

are there any falsehoods in the Bible? if not, then we can be sure that Paul is being completely true and reliable when he says that Peter is not on the right road, and is engaging in hypocrisy… it wouldn’t just be that he misunderstood…
Quote: Originally Posted by D
well, if Jesus actually said that, yes…
I’m more confident of Jesus saying that, than I am of you being who you say you are.
what is at stake if I turn out to be someone different than what you thought? (I don’t think I’ve claimed to be anything other than ‘Dan_471’)
Does that make sense?
yes,
tho… low degree of confidence that I’m, say, the same dan_471 that started the thread…
The Church was an eye witness. You and I are talking over the internet. You don’t know me and I don’t know you.
quite so… now, was Matthew an eye-witness? probably… was that the same ‘Matthew’ that wrote the gospel we call by that name? much less certain…
Quote: Originally Posted by D

ok, that follows, again if Jesus actaully gave him the keys…
Again, I’m confident that happened, because I trust the source who was there.
why would you think that the ‘Matthew’ that wrote the gospel was there?
Quote: Originally Posted by D
right, so a lot seems to rest on ‘Matthew’s’ rememberance of things… If Matthew’s remembrence was not correct, we’d see immediate push back from his contemporaries.
I think there were contemporaries pushing back… but because they ended up being considered heretics, their writings aren’t as well-preserved…
Just like we see ECF’s pushing back against those who hold wrong beliefs
sure, tho… who’s an ECF and who’s a heretic is relative to the observer…
Quote: Originally Posted by D
well, imo it weakens the case whether one is looking for reasons not to believe or looking to see how strong the case is to believe…
Matthew alone mentioning keys going to Peter doesn’t weaken the case.
well, that’s where we disagree, then… or at least one place… it does seem, don’t you think, that if something is mentioned in all four gospels, people will often point that out? that leads me to think that people consider it stronger if it’s mentioned a lot… so, probably weaker if it’s mentioned only once…
The Church has lived that truth for 2000 years.
well, the Church has 2000 years of history… whether they have Jesus’ stamp of approval… and how strong that stamp is… that’s what I’m interested in…
Quote: Originally Posted by D

right, and I agree that church-churches is not a big deal… at the same time, tho, if an Apostle wasn’t thinking in terms of a single church, then they would be using ‘churches’ a lot…
Jesus taught they were to be one as He and His Father are one.
that’s a good goal… what would they be unified around?
There’s zero room for division there.
yet there were divisions… back then as now… the Apostles tried to fix it… looks like… but it was an on-going process…
Jesus said He would build His Church. Therefore His Church is one.
yes, if He said it… must be an on-going process…
 
Quote: Originally Posted by D
well, Irenaeus is a while removed from Jesus, I think… yes, still closer than we are today… say, here’s a question from out in left field… does Irenaeus say who’s pope in his day?

Yes of course. Chapter 3
That’s from Bk 3 Ch 3. Look at Vs 3. See the 12 bishops of Rome from Peter and Paul he names? The last name Irenaeus mentions is the pope of his day Eleutherius.
cool… 🙂
As an aside, have you seen the movie Gladiator? In the beginning there’s a prologue, it says it’s around the year ~180 as I recall. It gives one an idea how those times looked. If you see the movie, remember to read that in the opening scene
ok
Quote: Originally Posted by D well, the ‘case’ as in an internet forum… as in reasonable, informed people could be expected to take different sides, it looks to me very open…
well, ok, but now we’re back to assuming that all the Scriptures are reliable and Spirit-ordained…the original post of this thread, if I remember right, was about the connection between Jesus and the RCC, not really so much about the link between the Scriptures and the Church…
so, how strong is the connection between the Scriptures and the RCC? I suppose a lot would depend firstly on which canon of Scripture one used, and how one read them… seeing how Jesus read the Torah, if one used the same approach to the NT, one could find a lot of leeway, imo… why? because the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life…
The scriptures were written in, by, and for the Catholic Church.
hmmm… so to see how strong the link is between Jesus and the RCC, we look to see what the RCC says about itself? does this strike you as circular at all?
The writters, Peter, Paul,
not sure if Paul thought Peter was pope… would he still be Catholic?
the writer of the Gospel of Matthew may not have been named Matthew…
Mark, Luke, John, James, Jude are all in the Church they write to and for. Luke wrote Acts.
possibly… he doesn’t seem to know Paul very well…
Her is what he said

Acts 9:31 So the church throughout all κατά kataὅλοςholos] Judea and Galilee and Sama’ria…"
yes, I understand ‘catholic’ means ‘whole area’… or ‘universal’… just because ‘Luke’ used a common greek preposition plus another word which later gave birth to the english word ‘catholic’ doesn’t mean he was thinking the same thing as we think of when we hear the word ‘catholic’…
iow the Church is the Kataholos Church = Catholic Church The English word catholic is a transliteration of the Greek katholikos which is a compound word from kata, which means according to, and holos, which means whole. catholic.com/tracts/what-catholic-means Ignatius, Bp of Antioch, ordained by apostles ~69 a.d. martyred ~107 a.d. He was a disciple of St John. Ignatius called the Church the Catholic Church. Letter to the Church @ Smyrna
no doubt… there were probably other people around who saw it differently, yes?
Bp Polycarp, also a disciple of St John called the Church the Catholic Church " Martyrdom of Polycarp"
again, no doubt… what did Marcion have to say?
Bp Irenaeus of Lyons, also called the Church the Catholic Church, “Against Heresies”

etc etc etc
yes, I have no doubt that there were people back then who were into having a Catholic Church… I was most interested in the connection to Jesus…
Quote: Originally Posted by D ok, I’m not following how knowing when a group is started disqualifies it from being led by the Spirit… we know when the Church was started? yes?
The Mormons say the LDS church was started by Jesus, and the JW’s say something similar, I think…
The Spirit isn’t the author of all this division.
right, so He must be working to bring it all together… or perhaps the church doesn’t look divided to Him…
Anybody can look up who started each Protestant group and when it started. They are all started by men who divided from somebody else. They can’t begin to justify Jesus starting THEM.
well, the justifiying usually goes something like this: we are the right group, Jesus started us, and as proof of that, we say so,… also we have Bible verses… and we have the right interpretation of those verses, because Jesus gave us the right interpretation… … pretty air-tight, actually… also circular…
 
(steve b) We have writers closest to the apostles in time, writing about this and how they understood it.
say, another thought there… Paul is very close to Peter… and he (Paul) writes his thoughts on how he understands the situation…
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_471 View Post

kind of an odd situation with 1Tim, there… does it refer to itself? how would one know which writings are Scripture?.. odd thing (at least it seems odd to me) that if Paul wrote that, there wasn’t really a canon in place for either the OT or NT (so I’ve heard)…
anyways, Paul makes few references to what Jesus taught…

True, there was no NT canon at the time the NT was being written.
I don’t think there was an OT canon, either… certainly some books were regarded as authoratative by some groups…
That didn’t come till much later.
However, examining the NT books written in Greek with the OT Septuigint also written in Greek and known as (LXX), we see how many times the LXX is referenced in the NT.
some books are, yes… also some greek poets…
The Septuagint had the same number of books in it from ~180 a.d.
hmmm… well after 1 Tim, probably…
Since both testaments were written in Greek,
well, the OT originally written in Hebrew, I think… did you mean the LXX and NT are both in greek?
here are the OT references in the NT cin.org/users/james/files/deutero3.htm
yes, quite a few… not sure what you’re getting at, here…
Re: Paul not referencing what Jesus taught, here’s something to consider. The purpose of Jesus sending the HS to inspire the apostles, was to cause them to remember all that Jesus taught.
Jn 14:
25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
Jn 16:
12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
Therefore: Since Paul is writing under the inspiration of the HS, Paul taught what Jesus taught or wanted Paul to teach.
Paul writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, well, that would be a statement of faith… imo… also, then, the Holy Spirit wanted Paul to write ‘those who were reputed to be important (what they once were makes no difference to me…’ and also that ‘And the rest of the Jews* [also] acted hypocritically along with him (Peter)’… we can trust that this is what the Holy Spirit wanted him to write and teach, and that he remembered it right… I’m not sure I agree with that, myself…
Quote:
Originally Posted by D
well, I think that’s where the circularity sneaked in on ya, there… which Scriptures (that is, which writings are Scripture), and are they reliable… if one appeals to the Scriptures to show that the Scriptures are reliable, that becomes circular, imo…
I never said they authenticate themselves.
well, I believe that you implied that… I think you appealed to a Scripture to show that the Scriptures are reliable… actually, I think you’ve done that several times…

if they don’t authenticate themselves, what authenticates them?.. here’s what I’m hearing you saying… that the Church authenticates the Scriptures, and that the Scriptures authenticate the Church…
Quote:
Originally Posted by D
if the matter is the reliability of the Scriptures, or the authority of the Church that chose those Scriptures, then yes, I think it is circular…
scripture can’t identify itself, that’s true. It’s not true that the the Church who wrote the scriptures can’t identify her own writings as scripture.
yes, of course She can call certain writings Scripture… what gives authority to the Church, then?.. those Scriptures? perhaps it comes directly from God… that would make sense, and not be circular… how would we know it, tho? if we say we can read about it in the Scriptures, then we’re back to where we were earlier…
Peter, Paul, James, John, Matthew, Mark, Luke, Jude, are all in the Church they write to and for…true?
well, I’m curious to see if Paul not acknowledging Peter as the leader would disqualify him from being in the church…
The Church they are in will make the decision on which works are scripture.
did Paul think he was in a church with a single top leader? I’m rememgbering when Paul thought he had insulted the high priest… he apologized immediately, because he hadn’t realized that that man was the high priest… if Paul had realized that Peter was the single high leader of the Church, would he have spoken to him that way? or about him? (the story’s from Acts, I think… so myself, I’m not sure it actually happened…)
 
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