"Founding" Another Sect

  • Thread starter Thread starter Gilbert_Keith
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
G

Gilbert_Keith

Guest
The “founding” of a new Christian denomination every time we turn around is not exactly a new phenomenon. This proliferation of sects went on in the early church too, in spite of Christ’s prayer:

“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word, that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou has sent me.” - John 17:20-21

What’s the reason? What drives a man or woman to feel empowered to start a new branch of Christianity? Is it just prideful rebellion against all established Christianity? Or is there some other psychological dynamic at work?
 
I believe there are many causes of the recent trends. Though I believe the two greatest reasons are 1) ignorance of Scripture and Christian history, and 2) postmodern popular pyschology which has greatly devalued law of unity, establishment, and personal virtues of obedience and patience.

We live in a frenzy culture of fast media, magazines, fast food, remote controls, materialism, luxury, etc. A society that says “if you don’t like what you’re seeing, just change the TV channel”. You walk into a shoe store for sneakers, and you have a choice of 500+ shoes. Need cereal? 400 choices (just in case you wanted pink-colored x-shaped cheerios, instead of banana-flavored green cheerios in square shape). You walk into a bookstore… and everyone is piled up at the newspaper and magazines sections that issues new editions every day, why bother to practice focus by reading a book that may take over a month to read when periodicals give you “complete knowledge” from cover to cover in 60 seconds flat? The world has gone mad; a culture of chaos for our souls.

Evangelicals, in particular, American evangelicals, have let this culture of consumerism change or define their spiritual beliefs, rather than let their spiritual beliefs change their culture and world. If two Evangelical pastors have a disagreement over biblical doctrine, guess what? One of them picks up their Bible, walks across the street and starts a new “church”. And you better believe that he/she will do their best to appeal to you with “entertainment-style” worship. It’s astonishing that some streets where I live have five Protestant/evangelical churches on the same street, same block, one after the other. Everyone is a teacher, nobody is the student. The deafening shouts of our society reminding us of our individualist nature, “be your own”, “army of one”, “be a leader, not a follower”, etc etc. all has an impact on our spirits and minds. Man is rebellious, rivalistic, envious, and cunning, so therefore, he will do things that harm not only himself, but his fellow brothers and sisters as well. This is why we believe Jesus Christ was so aware of the necessity to establish one Petrine Office in His Church, knowing the human nature of man.

So fellow Christians take not heed of the dangers of de-communication with other Christians. For them, it’s irrelevant, because they have been nurtured to believe it’s okay by societal and personal factors. For them, the great Kingdom of God on Earth cannot possibly be so united and so visible because all that is around them is so divided and ambiguous in their own sight.
 
Integritus

You’re onto something here. Instant personal gratification and novelty as a way of life. We get more and more churches with fewer and fewer congregants. Would this be the Devil’s strategy?

Divide and Conquer!
 
Sure some look at it as a quick way to be at the top of the pyramid. You get more if you start your own.
I wont mention any names directly, but just turn to TBN to see what I mean…

But there are many who would never think of being Catholic, see problems with the belief systems of what they currently are a part of and want to fix it. Since they never seriously have been presented Catholicism (an probably a whole bunch of lousy Catholics have turned them off) They look into their heart and open a new church.
I know a pastor who did this who is the nicest guy, we used to attend his church in a shopping plaza. Eventually his church got absorbed by Calvary Chapel after his wife made him quit. But he sincerely was trying to bring people to Christ, and just has so much prejudice against the Catholic Church, he never investigates it.

I have never been able to talk to him about it one on one and look forward to it, but I only see him about once a year nowdays, he doesn’t associate with my sister in laws family who attends Calvary Chapel anymore, because of the whole church breakup thing.

In Christ
Scylla
 
I think it is short sighted to assume that the main reason is that people are seeking personal gratification. If someone is moved by the spirit to be a teacher, and their focus in not on themselves, and their teachings are not just “tickling ears”,why assume they are doing it for personal gratification?

I know of many earnest teachers of the Word, who do so at great sacrafice to themselves and their family. They are not driving big cars, smoking cigars and preaching a feel good Gospel. They are working two jobs, plus pastoring, counseling, and spending a lot of time in prayer. They teach fasting, self denial, etc. I don’t think these folk are starting their own little congregation out of some desire to please self.

Evaluate each on their own merits. If someone’s ministry points to themself, teaches something other than Christ, or waters down the Word, then surely, judge it on those issues, but also be honest about the one’s who point only to Christ, and are faithful to his words and teachings.

cheddar
 
cheddarsox

*I know of many earnest teachers of the Word, who do so at great sacrafice to themselves and their family. They are not driving big cars, smoking cigars and preaching a feel good Gospel. They are working two jobs, plus pastoring, counseling, and spending a lot of time in prayer. They teach fasting, self denial, etc. I don’t think these folk are starting their own little congregation out of some desire to please self.
*
It sems curious to me that you, a so-called pantheist, would know these many earnest teachers of the Word, or that you would profess to know what is in their minds and hearts … how many are sincere and how many are ego-tripping, even at great cost to themselves and their families. Sincerity and hard work are, by the way, no assurance of rightness in one’s cause.

The Devil is also sincere and hard working.

We are talking about re-inventors of the Word, people who think God has endowed them with a special mission to divide Christianity once again against itself. If they cared anything about the Word, they would teach it as Jesus meant it to be taught and not join the flock of new denominations forming even as we speak.

“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word, that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou has sent me.” - John 17:20-21

These are the Words of the Lord.

As a pantheist you cannot possibly be interested in them.

Or can you?
 
Folks may truly believe they are sincere. However, in the words of GKChesterton (and possibly others), they don’t want to (seemingly) take into account that they may very well be
SINCERELY wrong.

just mho :hmmm:
 
cheddarsox

I think it is short sighted to assume that the main reason is that people are seeking personal gratification. If someone is moved by the spirit to be a teacher, and their focus in not on themselves, and their teachings are not just “tickling ears”,why assume they are doing it for personal gratification?

I’m not assuming anything. I think some people probably do it for ego-tripping. Others may do it for another reason. That’s what this thread is about … to find out the various reasons why Protestantism is getting to the point of nearly smashing itself to smithereens.
 
Gilbert_Keith said:
cheddarsox

I know of many earnest teachers of the Word, who do so at great sacrafice to themselves and their family. They are not driving big cars, smoking cigars and preaching a feel good Gospel. They are working two jobs, plus pastoring, counseling, and spending a lot of time in prayer. They teach fasting, self denial, etc. I don’t think these folk are starting their own little congregation out of some desire to please self.

It sems curious to me that you, a so-called pantheist, would know these many earnest teachers of the Word, or that you would profess to know what is in their minds and hearts … how many are sincere and how many are ego-tripping, even at great cost to themselves and their families. Sincerity and hard work are, by the way, no assurance of rightness in one’s cause.

The Devil is also sincere and hard working.

We are talking about re-inventors of the Word, people who think God has endowed them with a special mission to divide Christianity once again against itself. If they cared anything about the Word, they would teach it as Jesus meant it to be taught and not join the flock of new denominations forming even as we speak.

“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word, that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou has sent me.” - John 17:20-21

These are the Words of the Lord.

As a pantheist you cannot possibly be interested in them.

Or can you?
Click to expand...
You did post this on the Non Catholic forums, and I offered what I know, but you decide I can’t really know such people because I am a pantheist, nor could I have any interest because I am a pantheist.

Ok, sorry, I thought it was other people’s ideas and experiences you sought. Even pantheists know people, talk to people, work with people, etc.

I am not a “so-called” pantheist, anymore, I suspect, than you are a “so-called” Catholic. I expect that we are both, very deeply, the real thing.

cheddar
 
Gilbert_Keith said:
cheddarsox

We are talking about re-inventors of the Word, people who think God has endowed them with a special mission to divide Christianity once again against itself. If they cared anything about the Word, they would teach it as Jesus meant it to be taught and not join the flock of new denominations forming even as we speak.
Click to expand...
They do not look at it as dividing Christianity, they look at it as rescuing. They are following what they believe to be a higher calling, the Truth, rather than the Apostasy that they believe has taken place around them. They leave behind that which they feel has gone astray, attempting to lead people to the right path.

Some of these leaders believe that others are teaching falsehoods and that immmortal souls are in danger, so they step forward to save whomever can be saved with, what they understand to be the truth.

cheddar
 
It does seem odd that the same criticism is not leveled against the Latin Church of the eleventh century for dividing from the East.
 
Steadfast said:
It does seem odd that the same criticism is not leveled against the Latin Church of the eleventh century for dividing from the East.
Click to expand...
I am curious, Steadfast…

There are so many versions of “history” out there.
Who broke with whom? :confused:
I enjoy accurate history lessons. Could you please elaborate?
Thank you
 
It’s pretty generally accepted that the RCC acted definitively first by excommunicating the Patriarch of Constantinople.

Orthodox understand themselves to have been wronged, and Catholics present it as having been a necessary discipline.

And this is the point.

Per the OP, Protestants are criticised for dividing and all manner of evil intent is attributed to them when in reality, they believe sincerely and earnestly that they do so only to preserve the faith once delivered.

They are, in short, in exactly the same position as the Latin Church in the eleventh century with regard to the Eastern Church.

But no opprobrium or assumption of nefarious intent is applied to them.

Just seems a bit odd.

And yes, by “odd” I mean “hypocritical”.
 
Steadfast

Per the OP, Protestants are criticised for dividing and all manner of evil intent is attributed to them when in reality, they believe sincerely and earnestly that they do so only to preserve the faith once delivered.

So what you are saying is that the following prayer of Jesus is meaningless to Protestants, since their attitude seems to be that DISUNITY is preferable to UNITY?

“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word, that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou has sent me.” - John 17:20-21

Even as we speak, new disunity is being planned by Protestants so as to disunite and dilute further the growth of Christianity. I begin to see more truth than ever in the view of Herman Melville that the final confrontation will be between Atheism and Catholicism.

Guess who is going to win.
 
Steadfast

*Per the OP, Protestants are criticised for dividing and all manner of evil intent is attributed to them when in reality, they believe sincerely and earnestly that they do so only to preserve the faith once delivered.

They are, in short, in exactly the same position as the Latin Church in the eleventh century with regard to the Eastern Church.*

*You are not the least bit “steadfast” in your study of history. To equate the disunity of Orthodoxy with the disunity of modern Protestantism is truly ludicrous.
 
Please try to follow more closely:

When a Catholic says that the excommunication of the patriarch of Constantinople, which for all intents and purposes instantiated the great Schism, was necessary on doctrinal grounds he is saying substantially the same thing Protestants say when they divide over what they believe to be false doctrine.

Obviously the substance and degree of disagreement in each category is vastly different.

My analogy was not to detail but to form, the categorical values are identical.

And as for “unity”, your insistance that it be primarily typified by cultic or hierarchical uniformity is overrated.

Jesus wasn’t talking about that kind of unity. He was talking about the kind of unity all Christians already necessarily have and can never really lose since it is in Him and He cannot be divided.
 
Gilbert_Keith said:
Even as we speak, new disunity is being planned by Protestants so as to disunite and dilute further the growth of Christianity.
Click to expand...
If they are diluting the growth of Christianity, how do you explain a Church growing from two families to 20,000 in 20 years, without a nickel’s worth of seed money, and without ever having taken an offering over that period, with the preacher even having once hoped that the growth would stop at 250?

Why do you suppose it is that the Lord would be leading such a large group of Jews into this Church that they have their own ministry?

Seems to me that dead formalism and apostasy are more responsible for diluting the growth of Christianity.
 
Steadfast said:
Jesus wasn’t talking about that kind of unity. He was talking about the kind of unity all Christians already necessarily have and can never really lose since it is in Him and He cannot be divided.
Click to expand...
Amen Bro. Perhaps we don’t have to look too far to see who is doing the dividing.
 
Steadfast

In any case, it gets you nowhere to try to draw this parallel over the lack of unity between Catholic and Orthodox.

Jesus wasn’t talking about that kind of unity. He was talking about the kind of unity all Christians necessarily have and can never really lose since it is in Him and He cannot be divided.

Whew!

If you think the wild disunity of Protestantism today is fine with Jesus … what can I say? Protestantism has collapsed into a thousand contradictions and the resultant vulnerability of Christianity in general to the mounting attacks of Atheists is evident everywhere.

Haven’t you noticed that Unitarian/Universalists are now mostly agnostics and atheists? Haven’t you noticed that more Protestant denominations are tolerating more and more from their members … including men marrying men in the presence of a minister of the Gospel?

Please try to follow more closely. This is not what Jesus wants … some warm and fuzzy agreement that anything goes. And if you don’t like your church, just start another!
 
John Williams.

*If they are diluting the growth of Christianity, how do you explain a Church growing from two families to 20,000 in 20 years, without a nickel’s worth of seed money, and without ever having taken an offering over that period, with the preacher even having once hoped that the growth would stop at 250? *

People are searching. Among these 20,000, some will not stop searching. Many even now may be on the road to Rome. Other are on the road to starting a new denomination as soon as they fall out with this one.

By the way, what is your affiliation? Are you one of the 20,000?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top