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sicutincensum
Guest
Thank you very much! If you wish, we can keep in contact.
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sicutincensum
Guest
Sure. It was a gradual process. First I became inlove with the TLM (which I still am and will always be, God willingly). I approached some diocesan priests who liked or even celebrated the TLM. Back then, this was January-June 2009, it was expected that the SSPX would be reintegrated at any minute, and there was great tolerance towards them after the lifting of the excommunications. Thus, I accepted to go to the Holy Week services in a SSPX chapel, which were in that year celebrated by a diocesan priest. Eventually I started reading many of their material, and, together with a close friend, we beggan, albeit very relutanctly, one or two SSPX masses, and, step by step, we became extremely involved. My friend still is. It was a slippery slope.
If you want, we can discuss the details by PM, e-mail or IM. However, very briefly, it was the SSPX’s judgement of the Novus Ordo Mass that made me question them, and eventually abandon them. The SSPX believes the Novus Ordo Mass is bad in itself (because it lacks some good it should possess), and even considers active participation on the NOM a sin. Of course, many SSPX attendents don’t believe this. But I’ve always been a very logical person, and I noticed that if the SSPX were wrong (and they are) in this subject, then their position falls.
Archbishop Lefebvre said in the Écône ordinations: “As you well know, there cannot be priests without bishops (…) and who are the bishops that have kept the faith and the sacraments as the church as taught them for twenty centuries? Those are Bishop de Castro Mayer and myself, I cannot change that” (I quote by heart). Well, if the NOM is legitimate and compatible with the Catholic faith, then there was no state of necessity.
However, if the NOM is bad in itself, then the Church would have to correct this one day, and admit She was mistaken for 50 years, imposing a rite that does not sanctify de per se. There is no middle road here (which is not the case with the interpretation of CVII). Here it’s white or black. If the NOM is white, then the SSPX is not justified in its actions. If the NOM is black, then the gates of hell have prevailed against the Church.
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1AugustSon7
Guest
I often feel the same way simply being a Roman Catholic. My family is entirely secularist thanks, in large part, to the fact that many of our patriarchs were Masons, and you can imagine the feeling that spirit engenders toward Roman Catholicism. There is exactly zero religion in my family, which makes eating together awkward for me but especially celebrating the holidays. Add into that mix some “mixed-marriages”, divorces, et cetera, and keeping it all together has taught me to be quite the diplomatic statesman.
I find prayer, especially traditional prayers, to be the greatest relief. I don’t think it accidental that most of the Psalms deal with isolation and seperation from community to the point of even being persecuted by your community. When you’re feeling down, pray the Psalms and pray traditional prayers. The grace of God will come to you.
As always, keep the Faith, and offer up all your hardships. Beg for increases in virtue, both human and divine. Ask especially for wisdom (and whenever I ask for wisdom I always ask for chastity and discipline to accompany it also, given King Solomon’s example.)
I find prayer, especially traditional prayers, to be the greatest relief. I don’t think it accidental that most of the Psalms deal with isolation and seperation from community to the point of even being persecuted by your community. When you’re feeling down, pray the Psalms and pray traditional prayers. The grace of God will come to you.
As always, keep the Faith, and offer up all your hardships. Beg for increases in virtue, both human and divine. Ask especially for wisdom (and whenever I ask for wisdom I always ask for chastity and discipline to accompany it also, given King Solomon’s example.)
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Agape11
Guest
I’m not certain where all of you single male Traditionalist live but I’m a single 31 y/o female who is seeking a Traditional minded male 
I know this isn’t a dating site but… just thought I’d throw that out there.
I choose to imitate the Virgin Mary in her humility, submissiveness, and obedience to Christ and when I get married, my husband. The Bible and the Catechism outline my role as a wife, and I fully intend to live according to the church’s teaching on this matter.
I know this isn’t a dating site but… just thought I’d throw that out there.I choose to imitate the Virgin Mary in her humility, submissiveness, and obedience to Christ and when I get married, my husband. The Bible and the Catechism outline my role as a wife, and I fully intend to live according to the church’s teaching on this matter.
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maurin
Guest
I don’t agree with your concluding statement at all, sicutincensum.
As Aristotle taught, there is always a mean between two extremes. You are citing two extremes. The way several Society priests have explained when I’ve asked is that the evil which is inherent in the NO Mass is not necessarily that which is included, but in that which was excluded, most notably in the Canon, and the de emphasis on Sacrifice and the emphasis on communal meal; one example among a few.
So no, I do not believe that many of us in the pews of the Chapels of the Society are fed a diet of such polemics. If the Society ever took the position that the gates of hell have prevailed, the Society wouild have ceased being the Society. It never took that position, as is clearly implied in your conclusion. The only criticism of the NO Mass I have ever heard relates directly to the watering down of doctrine, and the unsacredness of the atmosphere in the average Mass, which are cocnlusions I had already drawn before even finding the Society.
When I first joined this forum, back in 06 was it?, I didn’t know the Society existed. It was here that I learned of them, and realized slowly I was in almost complete agreement with their positions, as I understand them.
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Sirach2
Guest
Maurin,
You are white-washing the explicit teaching of the SSPX on their own website, but perhaps the chapel you attend is a bit more lenient in explaining this to their people. You are misinformed, and therefore are mininforming others. This is the statement that others may be referring to:
“However, regardless of the gravity of the sacrilege, the New Mass still remains a sacrilege, and it is still in itself sinful. Furthermore, it is never permitted to knowingly and willingly participate in an evil or sinful thing, even if it is only venially sinful. For the end does not justify the means. Consequently, although it is a good thing to want to assist at Mass and satisfy one’s Sunday obligation, it is never permitted to use a sinful means to do this.
To assist at the New Mass, for a person who is aware of the objective sacrilege involved, is consequently at least a venial sin. It is opportunism. Consequently, it is not permissible for a traditional Catholic, who understands that the New Mass is insulting to Our Divine Savior, to assist at the New Mass, and this even if there is no danger of scandal to others or of the perversion of one’s own Faith (as in an older person, for example), and even if it is the only Mass available. [Answered by Fr. Peter R. Scott]”
sspx.org/Catholic_FAQs/catholic_faqs__traditional.htm#conditionalconfirmation
You are white-washing the explicit teaching of the SSPX on their own website, but perhaps the chapel you attend is a bit more lenient in explaining this to their people. You are misinformed, and therefore are mininforming others. This is the statement that others may be referring to:
“However, regardless of the gravity of the sacrilege, the New Mass still remains a sacrilege, and it is still in itself sinful. Furthermore, it is never permitted to knowingly and willingly participate in an evil or sinful thing, even if it is only venially sinful. For the end does not justify the means. Consequently, although it is a good thing to want to assist at Mass and satisfy one’s Sunday obligation, it is never permitted to use a sinful means to do this.
To assist at the New Mass, for a person who is aware of the objective sacrilege involved, is consequently at least a venial sin. It is opportunism. Consequently, it is not permissible for a traditional Catholic, who understands that the New Mass is insulting to Our Divine Savior, to assist at the New Mass, and this even if there is no danger of scandal to others or of the perversion of one’s own Faith (as in an older person, for example), and even if it is the only Mass available. [Answered by Fr. Peter R. Scott]”
sspx.org/Catholic_FAQs/catholic_faqs__traditional.htm#conditionalconfirmation
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Old_Salt
Guest
Dear sir,
You write that you left the SSPX.
Were you a priest or brother, in the Society, bcause only clerics can be members of the SSPX as laymen are just Catholics who assist at SSPX Masses.
There is no sin or penalty with fulfilling your holyday obligation at an SSPX Mass if done out of devotion to the Usus Antiquor, and not to conciously seperate yourself from the Holy Father.
My spiritual advisor [an FSSP priest] says I can go to SSPX Mass’s.
You write that you left the SSPX.
Were you a priest or brother, in the Society, bcause only clerics can be members of the SSPX as laymen are just Catholics who assist at SSPX Masses.
There is no sin or penalty with fulfilling your holyday obligation at an SSPX Mass if done out of devotion to the Usus Antiquor, and not to conciously seperate yourself from the Holy Father.
My spiritual advisor [an FSSP priest] says I can go to SSPX Mass’s.
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Boulder257
Guest
This seems somewhat odd to me in that you can’t ignore certain facts to only focus on the facts you want. This logic doesn’t hold up when committing sins, so why does it hold up here? The SSPX does not have faculties to celebrate the sacraments and therefore, it does not fulfill the Sunday obligation. Furthermore, participating in these masses is supporting an organization that is not in Communion with Rome
Please see the following answer from an apologetic posted within the past week… forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=646107
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maurin
Guest
Your personal accusations aside, what you have quoted applies to someone like me, who agrees whole heartedly with the assessment. That is why I have not gone to a NO Mass in 4 1/2 years, save for family weddings and funerals.
For those who are in the NO, what you have cited does not apply to them. No Society Priest that I know would tell you you are sinning for attending the NO Mass, sirach.
I pleasantly ask you to ask me questions first for clarification before accusing me of whitewashing something or being misinformed. Thank you in advance.
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Sirach2
Guest
Maurin,
Why do you accuse me of making “personal accusations?” You are over-reacting. Read again, where I stated clearly, “but perhaps the chapel you attend is a bit more lenient in explaining this to their people.” And I stand by that, since the SSPX website’s FAQ’s clearly describe the NO as sacrilegious and state that it is at least a venial sin to attend the mass.
If the SSPX have relaxed their former teaching, they have not updated their website stating so. Can you claim with absolute certainty that ALL chapels no longer teach this? Perhaps, as I said, your chapel is different, but is it representative of the majority of chapels all over the world? I do believe that statements from SSPX laity generally whitewash their teachings to make the SSPX appear more “user-friendly” to outsiders. This is not at all unusual.
Why do you accuse me of making “personal accusations?” You are over-reacting. Read again, where I stated clearly, “but perhaps the chapel you attend is a bit more lenient in explaining this to their people.” And I stand by that, since the SSPX website’s FAQ’s clearly describe the NO as sacrilegious and state that it is at least a venial sin to attend the mass.
If the SSPX have relaxed their former teaching, they have not updated their website stating so. Can you claim with absolute certainty that ALL chapels no longer teach this? Perhaps, as I said, your chapel is different, but is it representative of the majority of chapels all over the world? I do believe that statements from SSPX laity generally whitewash their teachings to make the SSPX appear more “user-friendly” to outsiders. This is not at all unusual.
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maurin
Guest
rhetoric aside, sirach, you did not seek clarification, you said I was misinformed. But let’s skip that.
As I have already written, it would be a sin for me, someone who agrees with the Society, to attend the NO Mass. Not for you. And by way of analogy, it is a venial sin for a cleric to neglect his daily office. It is not a venial, sin for a lay person to never recite the daily office. And the Society has not changed or relaxed their assessment of the NO Mass. That is what that is.
It really is that simple.
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Old_Salt
Guest
You are dead wrong sir,
The Code of Canon Law for the Latin Church says:
can. 1248 1. The precept of participating in the Mass is satisfied by assistance at a Mass which is celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the holy day or on the evening of the preceding day."
This means that if you go to a chapel of the SSPX on the day of precept or the evening before and attend Holy Mass, you fulfill your obligation. The SSPX celebrate in a Catholic Rite.
I also have a letter in my possesion from the Pontifical Commision Ecclesia Dei where Monsignor Perl, the then Secretary, states that I may fulfill the Sunday and Holy Day obligation at an SSPX Mass.
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TheRealJuliane
Guest
If you happen to meet someone in Krav Maga, she might just kick the snot out of you!
I wouldn’t count on meeting someone through an Israeli Army defense class, but you never know. Good for you for joining something!
I wouldn’t count on meeting someone through an Israeli Army defense class, but you never know. Good for you for joining something!
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adoglover1956
Guest
No…Boulder257 is correct. There are many Churches not in full communion with the CC but use and old rite. They do not have to faculties to offer the sacraments. It’s that plain and simple. You can believe what you want.
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adoglover1956
Guest
From CAF apologists
Questions asked:
I would like to attend Mass and receive Communion at the local SSPX chapel on most Wednesdays because this is the day of the “children’s Mass” in my regular parish. Is this okay?
Question answered:
No. The SSPX still does not have faculties to be celebrating the sacraments, and Catholics should not be supporting the SSPX in their continued and persistent refusal to regularize their status within the Church. If you do not like the “children’s Mass” on Wednesdays at your local parish, then go on that day to another parish recognized by your local diocese to be a Catholic parish.
Questions asked:
I would like to attend Mass and receive Communion at the local SSPX chapel on most Wednesdays because this is the day of the “children’s Mass” in my regular parish. Is this okay?
Question answered:
No. The SSPX still does not have faculties to be celebrating the sacraments, and Catholics should not be supporting the SSPX in their continued and persistent refusal to regularize their status within the Church. If you do not like the “children’s Mass” on Wednesdays at your local parish, then go on that day to another parish recognized by your local diocese to be a Catholic parish.
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sicutincensum
Guest
AhahIf you happen to meet someone in Krav Maga, she might just kick the snot out of you!
I wouldn’t count on meeting someone through an Israeli Army defense class, but you never know. Good for you for joining something!
I don’t plan in meeting any girl in Krav Maga, but it’s certainly a plus when meeting a girl to tell her “yes, I go to mass, I work hard, I do a masters and I do Krav Maga for fun.”
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Old_Salt
Guest
This statement completely ignores what my response was.
I was responding to the individual who said the Mass’s of the SSPX do not fulfill the obligation.
I have shown by the Catholic Church’s own words that they do fulfill the obligation.
Weather or not it is right or wrong is another matter altogether.
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Old_Salt
Guest
Again, Canon 1248 [from the current Code] says:
“can. 1248 1. The precept of participating in the Mass is satisfied by assistance at a Mass which is celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the holy day or on the evening of the preceding day.”
“can. 1248 1. The precept of participating in the Mass is satisfied by assistance at a Mass which is celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the holy day or on the evening of the preceding day.”
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adoglover1956
Guest
If don’t have the faculties to offer the sacraments then the sacraments are illicit. That cannot fulfill the obligation.
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maurin
Guest
Msgr Perle disagreed with the CAF Apologists, as has been cited several times in this sub forum on various threads about the Society. He said by way of letter that one does fulfill one’s obligaTions at a Society Mass, with the warning not to imbibe a mentality which would cause one to seprate onesself from the Holy Father.
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