Fourth Commandment Issue

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Hi All;

In regards to the fourth commandment- Honour of Mother and Father, I have a problem.

I have a tense family situation due to parents decision to divorce. I am shocked and ashamed at the situation they have brought upon themselves and each of them is acting in a deeply selfish way. I’ll not go into the underlying issues affecting our relationship.

I am married and we live a few hours away from them. There is no easy way to see them often, but the events which have been happening have meant I have chosen to keep some distance as I was being dragged into sides by each party. I haven’t seen my dad in nearly a year now.

I understand breaking the commandments is a mortal sin. In this case, the relationship has deteriorated. I still speak to them, and things are amicable in that we still talk. I try to keep out of sides, but I am deciding not to go and visit until things settle. They don’t ask when I am going and seem wrapped up in their own world, and not concerned about it.
I have had a lot on my plate recently and haven’t been able to look to them for any support, given they’re completely set on themselves and happy to dismantle their marriage.

Their actions and attitudes have really annoyed me and in private I talk about them and say bad things- condemning their actions, rather than saying anything out of turn. But they have deeply affected me by their actions over the years and I feel messed up in many ways.
Positives: I pray for them, and still love them both. I do call, as I mentioned, and have been as supportive as I can.
I’m troubled by my ‘talking about them’ but I don’t know if I am being scrupulous.

I know of the 3 requirements for mortal sin.
But how do you know if you are ‘gradually breaking a commandment’?

I hope this makes sense? Breaking a commandment is serious (well, mortal) but I don’t think I have broken it in one-go, as it were.
 
Taking the accounts at face value, you are : 1) not responsible for the circumstances with which you are being presented and 2) are responsible for your response. So I would focus on clearly distinguishing between the two.

Your involvement, hearing of and acting out on, may be causing an occasion for sin which is the first thing I would be looking out for. Manifesting malignant thoughts and murmuring about them consume time and focus that can lead us into spiritual decay. I think most of us have encountered those situations from time to time. My wife and I have had to enforce a “keep your drama to yourself” policy a few times, not only to prevent these types of acrimonious behaviors from damaging our relationships and to block an avenue for the behavior to increase. Ask yourself, “by being a supportive listener, is there any hope of a resolution or am I just another person hearing this story for someone looking to build a support staff for themselves?”

Too often, especially in distance, we are only hearing each person’s perspective in turn, and not a comprehensive summary of the dispute, and the person is often not looking for support to resolve as much as reinforcement of their own “rightness”, so by its nature, it is divisive talk and forces you to take sides against the other. If you find yourself struggling with “lead me not into temptation” (to murmur, rumor-monger, etc.), then put an abrupt stop to the situation. And pray in the words Our Savior gave us throughout the day. Hope you find at least one sentence useful. God Bless you.
 
Thank you, I really appreciate that. Especially the notion of a near occasion of sin- which I hadn’t noticed!
 
You can discuss sinful actions being wrong without breaking the commandment. Please remember that we are only given so much time on earth with our parents and it would be a mistake to waste time not seeing them because you are angry at one aspect of their lives.
 
Well first, stop judging your parents. That is a sin itself. How do you know they are happy to “dismantle” their marriage? You may not know all there is to know about their relationship. It is up to the Church to eventually decide if their marriage was valid in the first place, not you.

You don’t have to stop seeing them unless you are prone to taking sides. If they are going to try and put you in the middle then shame on them. Simply explain that you are not going to get in the middle and when they can keep the divorce out of their discussions with you, visiting will continue. Otherwise, don’t visit either one until things settle.

In the meantime, pray for them, don’t discuss their business with others, and take care of the things that are “on your plate” that need your attention. I certainly can imagine that parents breaking up is hard on everyone, but there is no one that needs to pass judgement on the situation.

I doubt they are that happy about breaking up.
 
Cricket2 said:
Well first, stop judging your parents. That is a sin itself. How do you know they are happy to “dismantle” their marriage? You may not know all there is to know about their relationship. It is up to the Church to eventually decide if their marriage was valid in the first place, not you.

You don’t have to stop seeing them unless you are prone to taking sides. If they are going to try and put you in the middle then shame on them. Simply explain that you are not going to get in the middle and when they can keep the divorce out of their discussions with you, visiting will continue. Otherwise, don’t visit either one until things settle.

In the meantime, pray for them, don’t discuss their business with others, and take care of the things that are “on your plate” that need your attention. I certainly can imagine that parents breaking up is hard on everyone, but there is no one that needs to pass judgement on the situation.

I doubt they are that happy about breaking up.
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They are both simply tired of each other and both is seeking divorce for their own ends. I think that’s a pretty lousy view on marriage, especially when their opinions manifest themselves as subtle insinuations that my marriage is somehow similar. I don’t believe this form of judgement is any more wrong than taking a moral stand in another situation. I dont mention annulment,
I agree with the visiting point of view, thanks.
On your closing point…they do seem happy about it and seem to think I should be happy too. This is what is so frustrating. I thought parents were supposed to be good role models…or try to be. They haven’t done anything to even try.
 
Hi all,

Just to clarify a little. Is it possible to fall gradually into mortal sin, in respect of the fourth commandment? Or would it need to be a one time sin, satisfying the requirements of mitral sin?

More broadly, are the Ten Commandments cut and dry, as it were?

For example, I heard that breaking then Ten Commandments and stealing a loaf of bread to feed ones starving family is not mortal (jimmy akin said this, I think ).

Not the sand thing, of course, but it highlights a degree of breaking a commandment which doesn’t bring a fall from grace.

I don’t know if I’m suffering from scruples maybe.
 
rcuk said:
Hi all,

Just to clarify a little. Is it possible to fall gradually into mortal sin, in respect of the fourth commandment? Or would it need to be a one time sin, satisfying the requirements of mitral sin?

More broadly, are the Ten Commandments cut and dry, as it were?

For example, I heard that breaking then Ten Commandments and stealing a loaf of bread to feed ones starving family is not mortal (jimmy akin said this, I think ).

Not the sand thing, of course, but it highlights a degree of breaking a commandment which doesn’t bring a fall from grace.

I don’t know if I’m suffering from scruples maybe.
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I think this is one of the best questions ever asked on these forums - gradual sin or at least gradual acts that may constitute sin. While I’m not sure “gradual sin” is the best term, it’s useful enough for now. By the way, this is not strictly a Fourth Commandment issue as the gradual sin concept can appear in any number of contexts, perhaps all of them.

I think the quick response to your question is that there is no such thing as gradual sin. Each moral act must be considered separately. That individual act is either a sin or not and stands on its own facts, not others (though other acts may increase or diminish subjective guilt).

However, it is very, very hard to judge our own conscience at times, even when trying to be as objective as possible. Some people can suggest certain bright lines, but these are never perfect.

For that reason, your question is a great one since recognizing a concept of gradual sin can help properly convict our conscience when we might be able to rationalize away certain problematic behaviors. If a criminal is on trial for 100 acts that are borderline criminal, he is more likely to be adjudged guilty (correctly) than if only on trial for a solitary act.

I’ve experienced, and I don’t think I’m alone on this, a guilty conscience over a series of acts where I can’t firmly say any single one is properly a mortal sin. Therefore this concept of which you speak - gradual sin - helps me affirm that my conscience is in need of repair, and makes me more likely to want to go to confession, makes me much more hesitant to present myself for Holy Communion. I may be entirely innocent of mortal and even venial sin, but I personally feel the balance of the weight of the evidence favors not risking further sin. I’m not sure this last statement is consistent with Catholic faith, perhaps I should be bolder if I’m not absolutely conscious of guilt. I’m just not sure. The propensity of the self to misjudge our conscience frankly scares me.

Perhaps this should be given a separate, clean thread. I keenly anticipate the thoughts of others.
 
Well, that’s true of all commandments, not just the fourth in particular; this concept is all throughout scripture. A couple of examples are:

Joshua warned the Israelites to finish removing the nations from the land that God had given them, being careful that they don’t fall into aligning themselves with the pagan nations, intermarrying, or false worship; this would lead to their destruction.

Samson continued to flirt with disaster in the form of Delilah until he finally gave in and confessed to her the secret of strength, leading to his demise.

Wise King Solomon also was eventually persuaded by his many pagan wives until he finally turned his heart from the Lord, ending his life as a tyrant.

The NT continuously warns that we cannot worship God and mammon, and Paul draws on the words of Greek writer Menander “bad company corrupts good morals” in his warnings to the Corinthians.

So yes, we can be picked away at little by little until we finally fall. I say this to answer the slippery slope question, not because I would advocate any rash responses of familial severance. That said, I see nothing wrong with establishing ground rules, both for your benefit and theirs. God Bless.
 
As they grow up, children should continue to respect their parents. They should anticipate their wishes, willingly seek their advice, and accept their just admonitions. Obedience toward parents ceases with the emancipation of the children; not so respect, which is always owed to them. This respect has its roots in the fear of God, one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
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2218 The fourth commandment reminds grown children of their responsibilities toward their parents. As much as they can, they must give them material and moral support in old age and in times of illness, loneliness, or distress. Jesus recalls this duty of gratitude.23
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For the Lord honored the father above the children, and he confirmed the right of the mother over her sons. Whoever honors his father atones for sins, and whoever glorifies his mother is like one who lays up treasure. Whoever honors his father will be gladdened by his own children, and when he prays he will be heard. Whoever glorifies his father will have long life, and whoever obeys the Lord will refresh his mother.24
O son, help your father in his old age, and do not grieve him as long as he lives; even if he is lacking in understanding, show forbearance; in all your strength do not despise him. . . . Whoever forsakes his father is like a blasphemer, and whoever angers his mother is cursed by the Lord.25
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Respect … Both should be respected.
Distress … If Divorce is not distress, IDK what is.
 
I don’t think you’re suffering scruples so much as trying to figure out how to play a difficult hand of cards.

Divorce is not just upsetting and confusing for young children. It is upsetting and confusing for the couple’s children no matter what their age. In my experience, the only exception is when the strife or bad behavior is bad enough that the children find separation and divorce to be a deliverance from a steady diet of upsetting and confusing, or worse.

It is probably a good thing to talk about the feelings you are going through, because I don’t know how else you’re going to figure out how to cope with this new situation that you have not chosen but in some way or another are forced to accept. I’d not be surprised if you go through all the same stages as someone grieving a death. In this case, your parents’ marriage is what you are mourning.

If you can talk to your spouse and some trusted friends, or some siblings–this is probably more than you ought to lay on one set of ears, that is asking a lot–then you may be able to work through how you’re going to show your parents respect for their place in your life as your mother or father in light of what they’ve done with their marriage and their relationship with you. If your close circle is not able to help you, either because they don’t have the energy, aren’t listeners on that plane of listening, do listen but don’t help you much, or it becomes otherwise apparent that you and they are in beyond your depth, then you might find a family counsellor. You may have to look awhile, but that is par. It is a tricky business, and no one has the tools for every job. In that setting you can get more experienced feedback from someone who doesn’t have a friendship with you to ruin and you will have the professional seal to protect you when you really say what you think. Choosing these discrete ways of figuring out your thoughts shows that you have no desire to ruin your parents’ reputations or display any lack of respect to them.
 
Once during confession I told my priest that I have a bad habit I struggle with. I have a difficult relationship with my mother, and often call my sister to “rehash” situation which veers closely to gossip and possibly not honoring my mother. We discussed how to keep it more suitable, and he ended with, we do have to love our parents…but we don’t always have to like them! I’ve kept this in my mind a lot recently. My mother and I have so many clashes and frustrations- and I love her, try to honor her, respect her, but sometimes I just can’t find it in me to like her. Maybe that’s where you are, and according to my priest, that’s ok.
 
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