Fourth Commandment Reality Check

[gardenswithkids]

Hi all. Over on the moral theology board there’s a discussion going about if it’s a mortal sin to disobey one’s parents–specifically rules about snack.

I admit, I’m a bit of a kitchen-nazi. I like to see the kitchen stay tidy for a little while after I clean it. To achieve this goal, I have set snack times. I read of this idea in a Catholic parenting book (Mother’s Rule of Life) and suddenly found great freedom that I no longer had to run 24 hour a day restaurant! Somedays I can go a full two or three hours without seeing dirty dishes and crumbs in the kitchen.

My teenagers didn’t always have those rules, and they don’t like them. They sometimes eat at the unappointed snack times, sneaking food against the house rules. Because they need to “sneak” it, they leave the kitchen tidy–which was the primary reason I implemented this rule in the first place. (Also I was concerned about overeating and general good nutrition, but honestly my biggest motivator was wanting something to stay clean for longer that five minutes.)

I like having an appointed snack time. My younger children know snack is coming regularly. They await it with joy each day, and don’t constantly pester me to get them food whenever they are hungry. Bigger kids stopped leaving dishes in the sink. People generally eat what I serve because they know they can’t just get a snack anytime. Yet, some don’t follow these rules all the time. When anyone’s caught breaking rules, I let them off with a warning. If violating parental snack rules might really be mortal sins, I would need to change these rules or get tougher with violators.

Now, back to my question–similar to the question posed over on Moral Theology. Does violation of my snack rules equate with “dishonoring” parents and might this be grave matter enough for mortal sin??? I don’t think so. I wanted to check my opinion with some of you over here in family life.

 

[Jennifer_J]

I doubt it would be mortally sinful for them to sneak food, but it might depend on why they are sneaking the food. If they are really and honestly hungary, they should be allowed to eat, even if you don’t think it’s time. Children and teens are growing at rapid rates and often need extra HEALTHY calories. When I’m breastfeeding or pregnant, I often NEED to eat during “non snack or non meal times”, so you know what? I eat something. Now if the children are sneaking food just to be “sneaky” or to get back at mom, THAT would be sinful.

 

[xformer7]

Depending on the age, there may be some sin involved. I have difficulty imagining a child could commit a **mortal **sin in this regard.

*CCC 2217: As long as a child lives at home with his parents, the child should obey his parents in all that they ask of him when it is for his good or that of the family. "Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord."22 Children should also obey the reasonable directions of their teachers and all to whom their parents have entrusted them. But if a child is convinced in conscience that it would be morally wrong to obey a particular order, he must not do so.

As they grow up, children should continue to respect their parents. They should anticipate their wishes, willingly seek their advice, and accept their just admonitions. Obedience toward parents ceases with the emancipation of the children; not so respect, which is always owed to them. This respect has its roots in the fear of God, one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. *

 

[purplesunshine]

My dad had a sign

“If you use a dish, put it in the dishwasher
If the dishwasher is full of dirty dishes, wash them
if the dishwasher is full of clean dishes, empty it
if you do not adhere to these rules you will be awakened at a time you are not accustomed to.”

I’d say set the big kids down and give them rules. During their teenage years my brothers could down a “dagwood” sandwich and still have room for seconds and dessert an hour later.

Just let them know what is off limits. We quickly learned that “shelf a” was against the rules as well as anything on the bottom shelf of the fridge. And honestly, we didn’t dare touch it.

My mom also did snack requests. We would get a snack for the week…we shared, but when it was out it was out. That got moderation down really well.

 

[Cat]

I doubt it would be mortally sinful for them to sneak food, but it might depend on why they are sneaking the food. If they are really and honestly hungary, they should be allowed to eat, even if you don’t think it’s time. Children and teens are growing at rapid rates and often need extra HEALTHY calories. When I’m breastfeeding or pregnant, I often NEED to eat during “non snack or non meal times”, so you know what? I eat something. Now if the children are sneaking food just to be “sneaky” or to get back at mom, THAT would be sinful.

I agree with this. When I was a teenager, I had to eat two lunches at school or I would lose so much weight in a week that my jeans would fall down. I was always hungry.

Oh, man, I miss those days! Now I’m a hundred pounds overweight!

It’s healthy to graze (eat constantly, if the foods are healthy). That’s the diet style currently recommended for weight loss because it helps keep the metabolism high which allows for more burning of calories.

And gardenswithjoy, don’t you see that the fact that your kids are awaiting snacktime “with joy” means that they are perhaps associating snacktime with an emotional high? This is the kind of thing that led to my gaining so much weight as an adult–I see eating times as pleasant, lovely, and desirable, and so I seek them more than I should because I find comfort and security in eating.

Eating should certainly be enjoyable, but the main reason people should eat is to nourish their body and keep themselves healthy. When people attach “joy” to the act of eating, it’s possible that this could develop into an attachment to
food that is not healthy. I certainly wish I could disassociate eating from “joy.”

I hope I am expressing myself adequately here. Perhaps others with food fixations and emotional attachments to food would speak up, too.

I think that it’s a great idea to make a rule about cleaning up after yourself and keeping the kitchen tidy. But limiting the snacks–I would re-think that.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Depending on the age, there may be some sin involved. I have difficulty imagining a child could commit a **mortal **sin in this regard.

CCC 2217: As long as a child lives at home with his parents, the child should obey his parents in all that they ask of him when it is for his good or that of the family. "Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord."22 Children should also obey the reasonable directions of their teachers and all to whom their parents have entrusted them. But if a child is convinced in conscience that it would be morally wrong to obey a particular order, he must not do so.

*As they grow up, children should continue to respect their parents. They should anticipate their wishes, willingly seek their advice, and accept their just admonitions. Obedience toward parents ceases with the emancipation of the children; not so respect, which is always owed to them. This respect has its roots in the fear of God, one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. *

Thanks for the catechism quote. Yes, I believe breaking parent’s reasonable rules would qualify as sin, but I highly questioned that it reached the level of mortal sin for something like snack.

 

[gardenswithkids]

I doubt it would be mortally sinful for them to sneak food, but it might depend on why they are sneaking the food. If they are really and honestly hungary, they should be allowed to eat, even if you don’t think it’s time. Children and teens are growing at rapid rates and often need extra HEALTHY calories. When I’m breastfeeding or pregnant, I often NEED to eat during “non snack or non meal times”, so you know what? I eat something. Now if the children are sneaking food just to be “sneaky” or to get back at mom, THAT would be sinful.

Our snacktimes are regular enough that if they are really and honestly hungry it means that either snack or meal time is very near or it means the child refused to eat what we served at meals.

 

[Em_in_FL]

If they’re old enough to sneak and clean up sufficiently (which meets your original goal), why not just have them ask permission?
If they’re legitimately hungry at different times day to day, why not consider a little time flexibility?
I understand avoiding overeating, but offering healthy foods for growing kids who can clean up after themselves wouldn’t be so difficult. Sometimes arbitrary rules aren’t worth putting them into a situation where they feel like they have to sneak around. Open communication and a little flexibility may help!

 

[purplesunshine]

Not to be mean, but you’re not your kids. Teens eat alot, and they may not be a bit hungry at 4:30 but then at 5 they may be starving.

Eating a small meal which causes one to eat less supper is actually much better for the metabolism than feeling hungry and then over eating.

Sitting down with your teens may be good. Ask them their (name removed by moderator)ut. Being too restrictive can make it hard when they move out to college, or on their own. In my college years I had friends who didn’t know how to order their own food at a restraunt becuase their parents always did it for them. They didn’t know when to eat beucase their mom made food, and thus, made terrible food decisions. I worked in the cafeteria and knew a kid who got scurvy simply becuase he was accoustomed to mom preparing and cooking and telling him what to eat. And what is “healthy” for you (low-fat, low-salt, low carb) can be very damaging to the body of a teenage athlete.

Smaller kids shouldn’t get freedom. A 6 year old will eat what tastes good with no regards for a balanced diet. A 16 year old should be able to have alot of choice…in another year or two they will be fully able to choose almost everything for themselves.

 

[gardenswithkids]

…It’s healthy to graze (eat constantly, if the foods are healthy). That’s the diet style currently recommended for weight loss because it helps keep the metabolism high which allows for more burning of calories.

And gardenswithjoy, don’t you see that the fact that your kids are awaiting snacktime “with joy” means that they are perhaps associating snacktime with an emotional high? This is the kind of thing that led to my gaining so much weight as an adult–I see eating times as pleasant, lovely, and desirable, and so I seek them more than I should because I find comfort and security in eating.

Eating should certainly be enjoyable, but the main reason people should eat is to nourish their body and keep themselves healthy. When people attach “joy” to the act of eating, it’s possible that this could develop into an attachment to
food that is not healthy. I certainly wish I could disassociate eating from “joy.”

I hope I am expressing myself adequately here. Perhaps others with food fixations and emotional attachments to food would speak up, too.

I think that it’s a great idea to make a rule about cleaning up after yourself and keeping the kitchen tidy. But limiting the snacks–I would re-think that.

I think I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t completely agreed. First of all, my family’s snacks/meal are more like “grazing” 3 meals and 2 snacks plus dessert dinner. These are family times–and I think they should be enjoyable. I suspect people are more likely to overeat when they eat alone (looking for comfort and company from food) rather than when the eat in community and share the food with other people.

 

[gardenswithkids]

If they’re old enough to sneak and clean up sufficiently (which meets your original goal), why not just have them ask permission?
If they’re legitimately hungry at different times day to day, why not consider a little time flexibility?
I understand avoiding overeating, but offering healthy foods for growing kids who can clean up after themselves wouldn’t be so difficult. Sometimes arbitrary rules aren’t worth putting them into a situation where they feel like they have to sneak around. Open communication and a little flexibility may help!

I am re-thinking it, which is one of the reasons I started this thread. I do allow snacks after sports practice, even if it’s close to meals and not the regular snack time, so I’m not completely unflexible on my rules. But it gets difficult having to explain it to the younger and middle chidren when they see the older children eating at the non-appointed times. Asking permission makes good sense , but then I may also be in the position of saying yes to one and no to another. Also in my experience, my oldest child happens to be on of my messiest children; what he thinks passes for clean . And… if I say yes to everyone, then it’s back to the 24 hour restaurant and constantly dirty kitchen–not all my children are old enough to clean up after themselves.

 

[Em_in_FL]

Asking permission makes good sense , but then I may also be in the position of saying yes to one and no to another. Also in my experience, my oldest child happens to be on of my messiest children; what he thinks passes for clean . And… if I say yes to everyone, then it’s back to the 24 hour restaurant and constantly dirty kitchen–not all my children are old enough to clean up after themselves.

Things needs to be age appropriate… so it may come down to saying yes to one child and no to another.
I completely agree that a younger child can spoil their dinner with a big snack, but a pre-teen can (and should) be able to eat to meet their needs (within healthy limits, of course). And cleaning should be done appropriately - or consequences should be enforced (no dessert, for example).
I think the everything-stays-equal-for-all idea may need to go out the window, though. Tough to implement, but probably the best decision. Good luck!

 

[Convert_in_99]

No, this is not at all grave matter. Period.

It could be a venial sin if they did it deliberately to disobey you (just for the sake of fighting with authority.)

If they are hungry, even semi-hungry, then they are there is absolutely no sin there.

If they are older children and teens, as long as they aren’t growing overweight, clean up after themselves, and still eat at the family dinner table, I don’t think they should have to follow the manditory snacking rules. Just my opinion though.

 

[Cat]

Is there any possibility of having a healthy snack around all the time that requires no preparation and that anyone is free to help themselves to whenever they desire?

For example–apples. Big bags of apples. When I was growing up, my brother and I went through a bag a day, and he still eats apples like candy (he’s 50). No mess–just throw the core outside (do you have a mulch heap or compost heap?) for the birds.

Another possibility is raisins. These are high in iron which most kids need. Unfortunately they’re also loaded with sugar, but I’ve found they are a great way to satisfy sweet tooths.

Grapes–a little more messy, but not really. Just grab a bunch and throw the stems in the wastebasket (or compost heap).

Carrots, either sticks or those baby carrots. Eat them by the handful–they’re good for you.

Any raw vege, but this will involve some advance preparation. But once the chopping is done, they’re so good for you and the kids.

NUTS–these are so good for kids! I realize that if you buy the peanuts in the shell, they’ll be messy, so maybe buying them shelled would be a better idea, even though it’s more expensive.

These are just some ideas. None of these require any advance prep (except for the veges), they’re good for kids, and they’re fairly cheap.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Is there any possibility of having a healthy snack around all the time that requires no preparation and that anyone is free to help themselves to whenever they desire?..

Those are good ideas.

Unfortunately, my children who break snack rules the most generally choose unhealthier snacks, (like the chips we keep around for bag lunches.) I’ll have to give your suggestion more thought, but suspect I’d still have the problem of children sneaking the junk. When fruits&veggies are ready for harvest, I don’t mind at all if my children snack from the garden any time they like.

 

[gardenswithkids]

No, this is not at all grave matter. Period.

It could be a venial sin if they did it deliberately to disobey you (just for the sake of fighting with authority.)

If they are hungry, even semi-hungry, then they are there is absolutely no sin there.

If they are older children and teens, as long as they aren’t growing overweight, clean up after themselves, and still eat at the family dinner table, I don’t think they should have to follow the manditory snacking rules. Just my opinion though.

Thank you for your reply to my original question. I started this thread because some people over in the moral theology forum argued that breaking parents’ snacking rules was potentially a mortal sin. I wanted to check out what people who hang out here in family life thought of the idea of snacks as mortal sins. (If my children had cleaned up after themselves in the kitchen and ate healthy snacks, I probably wouldn’t have ever implemented this rule in the first place.) I didn’t really start this thread to see if people here liked or agreed with my snack policy–I know my policy is unusual and tough.

I want to add, (for any of you who don’t know), I have seven children, and we homeschool them through 8th grade. Most “regular” schools (and daycares) don’t allow children to eat anytime they want either. While I understand the idea of regular snack and meal times may not be very common in most family homes, most families do not homeschool nor have large families.

 

[Cat]

I don’t know much about mortal sin, since I am a fairly new Catholic (5 years). I certainly don’t know anything about mortal sin and children. I must trust my priests to determine whether my sins are mortal. Perhaps it would be worth talking to a priest. I personally would not want to advise anyone about this issue.

I do know that the Bible says, “Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.”

I think that’s why I and several others have made comments upon the snack rule. It seems it might be something that could possible provoke children to resentment and anger and this could lead to mortal sin.

Many years ago, Jay Kessler, the long-time leader of Youth For Christ, made the statement that parents need to choose their battles carefully. Snacking and food is not something that I would do battle over. JMO, and I realize that everyone’s situation is different.

OTOH, it is a fine thing to teach discipline and moderation and more parents should do so. IMO, this is probably what is lacking for many obese Americans, including me. We simply do not know how to say “no” to our cravings for food and our desire to be indolent rather than active. There are all kinds of psychological and emotional reasons why people eat unhealthily and take little exercise. But when all is said and done, we have to overcome our personal preferences and make a decision to do what is necessary to be healthy.

It sounds like you have a fun household! Enjoy!

 

[dakotagirl]

It’s a venial sin, but your snack rules need to be changed if they feel the need to sneak food to keep from being hungry.

 

[Convert_in_99]

Thank you for your reply to my original question. I started this thread because some people over in the moral theology forum argued that breaking parents’ snacking rules was potentially a mortal sin. I wanted to check out what people who hang out here in family life thought of the idea of snacks as mortal sins. (If my children had cleaned up after themselves in the kitchen and ate healthy snacks, I probably wouldn’t have ever implemented this rule in the first place.) I didn’t really start this thread to see if people here liked or agreed with my snack policy–I know my policy is unusual and tough.

I want to add, (for any of you who don’t know), I have seven children, and we homeschool them through 8th grade. Most “regular” schools (and daycares) don’t allow children to eat anytime they want either. While I understand the idea of regular snack and meal times may not be very common in most family homes, most families do not homeschool nor have large families.

Your policy isn’t tough, especially during school. You should try to run homeschool time seriously (best you can with a bustling household ) and a sense of structure and rules should apply as would any school. I would only suggest and I say just suggest (because obviously you know your children best) that after school time is over that those rules be lifted, again, especially for the older children. When children get home from school or day care they have those rules lifted. It doesn’t mean you should let them go nuts, but within reason have some ‘after school snacking privileges.’ Kind of separate ‘being at school’ from ‘being at home.’ Ya know? I too was homeschooled. I know it’s hard work for the moms. I think you are doing great to have a large, beautiful family and homeschool them all. God bless your efforts.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Your policy isn’t tough, especially during school. …I too was homeschooled. I know it’s hard work for the moms. I think you are doing great to have a large, beautiful family and homeschool them all. God bless your efforts.

Thanks. I’m feeling really discouraged right now, wondering if I can manage to run my home with looser rules. I don’t want to frustrate my children or lead them into sin by being too strict. Yet I get frustrated when as soon as I clean the kitchen another dirty plate appears, or when I prepare a healthy meal only to have a child push the food around on his plate then head to the cupboards half-hour after dinner, or when I find a collection of potato chip bags and soda cans in my teenagers’ room.