Fr. Abrahamowicz interviewed about the Williamson affair

[Tsuwano]

The deicide comment sent a shiver up my spine. My sins killed Jesus. I am responsible. Not “the Jews.”

The SSPX needs to work on that aspect of the faith. We killed Jesus. We are the one he died for. The Jews didn’t kill him. He died for the forgiveness of our sins.

Thank you for this comment! I have crucified my Lord. No one else is responsible for my sin.

 

[cathguy]

I’m not willing to throw anyone under the bus…Stop trying to put words in my mouth

I will never start a campaign against anyone …The Pope knows what he is doing, and you seem unwilling to let him do things the way God is directing him

:yawn:

 

[oldmass]

Are you not aware that he made a VERY PUBLIC statement yesterday CONDEMNING holocaust denial and anti-semitism… ?

I do not deny the holocaust. I deny that millions of jews were gassed. In fact, I deny that even one jew was gassed. As it was, the pope did not speak to the matter of ‘gas chambers’ at all. The report I read went quote: "The pope recalled his many visits to Auschwitz, calling it ‘one of the concentration camps in which millions of Jews were brutally slaughtered.’ " I doubt that millions (plural) of Jews were slaughtered at Auschwitz. In fact, the plaque erected there in 1990 reads: “For ever let this place be a cry of despair and a warning to humanity, where the Nazis murdered about one and a half million men, women and children, mainly Jews from various countries of Europe. Auschwitz-Birkenau 1940-1945.” That figure was downgraded dramatically from an earlier plaque, erected in 1948, which indicated that 4 million died there, (fully 2.5 million fewer victims of all ethnicities). This earlier plaque was the one which tourists saw for over forty years. Whoops! The “mainly Jews” phrase means that, even by their calculations the number of Jewish deaths could have been well under a million. If we work at this a little longer we’ll get down to manageable Bp. Williamson numbers. By the way, I think that the bishop’s totals are a bit high myself.

Are you willing to throw the Holy Father under the bus now that the excommunications have been lifted, or do you want to back him up as I am?

Oh yes, if he’s wrong, and I think he is, then under the bus he goes. I look to the Holy Father to speak authoritatively to me on matters of faith and morals. I look to qualified revisionist scholars to illuminatge for me holocaust facts and fictions. Thank you.

 

[alih]

in-as-much as this topic can be rife with suppositions and various degrees of certainty, a history teacher in a catholic high school claimed, a claim substantiated by the weizenhall (sp?) institute, there were about 14 million executed during hitlers’s third reich of which 6 million were jew.
while we hear much of the jewish deaths, a question should be asked; “who speaks for the other eight?” have a good year. (alih)

 

[MrDickerson]

Go to the SSPX website and read what they have posted there vis-a-vis the Jews. It is outside Catholic tradition.

I am a Traditional Catholic. That said, with the SSPX, and especially the sedevacantists, anti-semitism runs deep.

We need to refute it.

I don’t know of a single traditionalist Catholic who is “anti-Semitic”; many of us are, however, anti-Judaism, as all true Catholics should be.

 

[JPUSC]

A true Catholic is not anti-Judaism.

From the Catechism:

Jews are not collectively responsible for Jesus’ death

597 The historical complexity of Jesus’ trial is apparent in the Gospel accounts. The personal sin of the participants (Judas, the Sanhedrin, Pilate) is known to God alone. Hence we cannot lay responsibility for the trial on the Jews in Jerusalem as a whole, despite the outcry of a manipulated crowd and the global reproaches contained in the apostles’ calls to conversion after Pentecost. Jesus himself, in forgiving them on the cross, and Peter in following suit, both accept “the ignorance” of the Jews of Jerusalem and even of their leaders. Still less can we extend responsibility to other Jews of different times and places, based merely on the crowd’s cry: “His blood be on us and on our children!”, a formula for ratifying a judicial sentence. As the Church declared at the Second Vatican Council:

. . . [N]either all Jews indiscriminately at that time, nor Jews today, can be charged with the crimes committed during his Passion. . . [T]he Jews should not be spoken of as rejected or accursed as if this followed from holy Scripture.

All sinners were the authors of Christ’s Passion

598 In her Magisterial teaching of the faith and in the witness of her saints, the Church has never forgotten that "sinners were the authors and the ministers of all the sufferings that the divine Redeemer endured."389 Taking into account the fact that our sins affect Christ himself,390 the Church does not hesitate to impute to Christians the gravest responsibility for the torments inflicted upon Jesus, a responsibility with which they have all too often burdened the Jews alone:

We must regard as guilty all those who continue to relapse into their sins. Since our sins made the Lord Christ suffer the torment of the cross, those who plunge themselves into disorders and crimes crucify the Son of God anew in their hearts (for he is in them) and hold him up to contempt. And it can be seen that our crime in this case is greater in us than in the Jews. As for them, according to the witness of the Apostle, “None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.” We, however, profess to know him. And when we deny him by our deeds, we in some way seem to lay violent hands on him.

Nor did demons crucify him; it is you who have crucified him and crucify him still, when you delight in your vices and sins.

839 “Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.” The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, “the first to hear the Word of God.” The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”, “for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”

840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race: All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .

843 "The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as ‘a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.’

 

[Tsuwano]

I don’t know of a single traditionalist Catholic who is “anti-Semitic”; many of us are, however, anti-Judaism, as all true Catholics should be.

 To what extent should all true Catholics be anti - Jewish or against Judaism?  Should we force them to wear yellow stars and boycott their businesses?  Perhaps we should round them up and place them in camps so they don't infect the rest of us.  But then again, such a waste of taxpayer's dollars!  Let's forcibly convert them, and for those who refuse . . . well, we can always say we gave them a chance to know our Lord but they refused.  They are responsible for whatever fate befalls them!   
 Your statement is horrifying and repugnant!  Christians, who should know a thing or two about persecution, shudder at your sentiment!

 

[Middleman]

This is an eye-opening thread. Obviously, anti-Semitism is alive and well in the Catholic Church today.

This a an open forum and is read by many people who don’t post, many of whom are non-Catholics. Many of us have some sorts of ties to Jewish people and know them as decent people who do just as much good in the world as Catholics or any other group of individuals.

By talking openly about this, it fuels these sentiments. The Jews are really totally outnumbered in this world, unlike Catholics or Muslims. Are we going to side with the Muslim world against the Jews? Who is more of a threat to us, do you think? If we feed these prejudices it will lead to them gathering momemtum, just as they have done in years past.

 

[Lujack]

I don’t know of a single traditionalist Catholic who is “anti-Semitic”; many of us are, however, anti-Judaism, as all true Catholics should be.

That’s stunning.

 

[lorathon]

I don’t know of a single traditionalist Catholic who is “anti-Semitic”; many of us are, however, anti-Judaism, as all true Catholics should be.

I have an Uncle that is a member of the SSPX. He is very anti-semitic. He is also a very devoit catholic. I can never figure out he jusitifies the two together.

 

[RyanML]

God bless Pope Benedict for lifting the excommunications.

Are you not aware that he made a VERY PUBLIC statement yesterday CONDEMNING holocaust denial and anti-semitism and saying the SSPX had to accept Vatican II to normalize relations?

Are you willing to throw the Holy Father under the bus now that the excommunications have been lifted, or do you want to back him up as I am?

Just asking.

The SSPX accepts Vatican II as a legitimate Council, they simply disagree with the way it has been interpreted and implemented. Cardinal Hoyos has made it clear that these discussions and reservations about the Council are no impediment to full regularization. And, Bishop Fellay has said that the Jews are our “elder brothers” and that the SSPX will not stand for anti-semitism. www.rorate-caeli.blogspot.com

 

[Melchior]

Fr. Floriano Abrahamowicz, an Italian priest of Jewish descent, gave the following interview, Jan. 29, to Laura Canzian of La Tribuna di Treviso I think it may help put the Williamson interview into some perspective

…

What do you think of [Holocaust] denial?

Denial is a false problem, because it focuses on methods and numbers and doesn’t address the substance of the problem. Those who have studied the technical data, and who have cast certain doubts on the versions that we find in history books, aren’t anti-Semites. It’s enough to recall that the first ones to find this data were also those who saved the Jews, meaning the Allies.

Do you want to offer a message to the Jewish community?

One message: As a Catholic Christian, adding that (a) little Jewish blood that runs in my veins, I express the hope that the Jews will embrace Our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.

Well, I guess having a Jewish last name makes irresponsible remarks okay. He completely ignores that most holocaust deniers are anti-semitic and it is a movement derived from Jew hating cultures. Plus, calling the Jews a people of diecide is ridiculous. The specific Jews involved in the crucifixion were not representatives of all Jews. Jesus and the Apostles and ALL of the very first Christians were Jews. So interviewing someone with a clear bias or at least very ignorant doesn’t make it all okay now -not even if their great grandfather was a Jew. It does not mean he is anymore sympathetic to Jews than the guy who is Scottish and English with a little Irish blood who is embarrassed by it.

 

[Walking_Home]

Well, I guess having a Jewish last name makes irresponsible remarks okay. He completely ignores that most holocaust deniers are anti-semitic and it is a movement derived from Jew hating cultures. Plus, calling the Jews a people of diecide is ridiculous. The specific Jews involved in the crucifixion were not representatives of all Jews. Jesus and the Apostles and ALL of the very first Christians were Jews. So interviewing someone with a clear bias or at least very ignorant doesn’t make it all okay now -not even if their great grandfather was a Jew. It does not mean he is anymore sympathetic to Jews than the guy who is Scottish and English with a little Irish blood who is embarrassed by it.

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What I find it most interesting --is that by todays standards --even our Lord Christ by what He said and did —would fall into someones category of being an anti-semite.

 

[Lujack]

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What I find it most interesting --is that by todays standards --even our Lord Christ by what He said and did —would fall into someones category of being an anti-semite.

Oh really? How?

 

[Walking_Home]

Oh really? How?

---

Well – If He were to return and repeat again to the Jews of our time what he said to the Jews of His time --how do you think they would respond. It ended up with Him being Crucified back then --now I don’t think the same sentence would be imposed --but the label of anti-semitism would serve to give Him some time in “confinement”.

 

[Melchior]

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What I find it most interesting --is that by todays standards --even our Lord Christ by what He said and did —would fall into someones category of being an anti-semite.

You make no sense whatsoever. Jesus said nothing like this guy. Oh yeah! JESUS WAS A JEW.

 

[Walking_Home]

You make no sense whatsoever. Jesus said nothing like this guy. Oh yeah! JESUS WAS A JEW.

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Again yea great defense . Yes our Lord was Jew --who was deemed “unfit” and a “blasphemour” and was Crucified.

 

[Lujack]

---

Well – If He were to return and repeat again to the Jews of our time what he said to the Jews of His time --how do you think they would respond. It ended up with Him being Crucified back then --now I don’t think the same sentence would be imposed --but the label of anti-semitism would serve to give Him some time in “confinement”.

He wouldn’t be called anti-Semitic. Jews who didn’t believe in him would call him a crackpot and a kook, but how would he be considered anti-Semitic?

 

[Walking_Home]

He wouldn’t be called anti-Semitic. Jews who didn’t believe in him would call him a crackpot and a kook, but how would he be considered anti-Semitic?

---

Yea --sure. Make yourself believe that.

 

[ChristIsLord]

i agree with everything the priest said. he clearly holds the bishops same views but so do i. in the end 6 million, 800,000 or more or less doesn’t really matter. the bishop isn’t denying nazi’s were targeting jews, simply the scale and methods used.

however the “6 million” number is essentially a number pulled out of thin air without any proof to back it up. according to census figures the population of worldwide jews increased by over half a million between 1938 and 1948, i don’t see how that’s possible if “6 out of 10 jews were killed in the holocaust”…

saying a number that can’t be corroborated is wrong, bullying people with the “anti-semite” moniker if they find their research simply doesn’t jive with popular belief is wrong. jailing people for denying the scale and methods used in the holocaust is wrong.