Fr. Barron and hell?

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Gorgias said:
You know what’s really hilarious? This whole tempest-in-a-teapot thread, in which Fr Barron is being accused of having espoused universalism… has proceeded from one of his videos in which he’s advocating for the existence of hell and the ability of people to reject God… :hypno:
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It is a witch-hunt to find fault with clergy, twisting their words in order to condemn them. Kinda looks like 8th commandment sin of “rash judgment.” Who has the greater sin?
 
Go to Catholic Culture.org and read The Reality of Hell by James Akin.

He doesn’t believe in the possibility of an empty Hell. He speaks of this thought as not universalism but Neo-universalism.

James Akin is a respected Catholic apologist. My views are like his and are in no way extreme.

The views of Neo-universalists are not in the tradition of the teachings of the Catholic Church over the last 2,.000 years and are quite new.

At the end of the article it says copyright This Rock, Catholic Answers.

So tell me all you neo-universalists out there–how out of line am I for not believing in the possibility of an empty Hell?
 
Jerry-Jet said:
Go to Catholic Culture.org and read The Reality of Hell by James Akin.

He doesn’t believe in the possibility of an empty Hell. He speaks of this thought as not universalism but Neouniversalism.

James Akin is a respected Catholic apologist. My views are like his and are in no way extreme.

The views of Neouniversalists are not in the tradition of the teachings of the Catholic Church over the last 2,.000 years and are quite new.
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What is it that keeps you focusing on things NOBODY has said here???

Can you READ???

Do you get some kind of kick out of twisting people’s words???
 
Private revelation is not part of the Catholic diner, at least not in the sense it is usually used which is doctrine.

I do not think anyone here is saying no one is going to Hell, only that it is technically allowable for a Catholic to believe this. There is no doctrine as to who or how many is going to Hell. If you do not like this absence, well…
 
It is good to see that there are those that hope that God’s Plan, which God has had since before creation, truly is Good News.
 
Shame that jerry-jet got banned. He had intelligent arguments. A priest that puts forth a questionable theological belief ought to be debated intelligently
 
RosslynV said:
Shame that jerry-jet got banned. He had intelligent arguments. A priest that puts forth a questionable theological belief ought to be debated intelligently
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What priest? Father Barron did not put forth his beliefs but only stated what the Church does and does* not* teach. There are many things about Heaven and Hell that the Church does not define. Most of his arguments were strawman arguments. I do not know that one person here has said they do not believe Hell is empty. Perhaps I missed something, but the posts responded to did not make this statement. Father Barron did not say this. 🤷
 
Our Lady has stated in, “To the Priests Our Lady’s Beloved Sons”, elocution to Father Gobbi: “The great blasphemy is that of denying the worship due to God by giving it to creatures and to Satan himself.” #405 page 602. If there is no hell then the Virgin Mary is a liar. I rather believe her than that man who professes to be a priest of the Church. It upsets me that learned men try to sway people away from the truth! What is their purpose? In another part of the book and I can’t remember where, Our Lady states that most people go to hell because of sins of the flesh!" It is better to believe in what the saints have stated and Our Lady than this man called “Father Barron”!
O.A. Manno
 
oamannous said:
Our Lady has stated in, “To the Priests Our Lady’s Beloved Sons”, elocution to Father Gobbi: “The great blasphemy is that of denying the worship due to God by giving it to creatures and to Satan himself.” #405 page 602. If there is no hell then the Virgin Mary is a liar.
I rather believe her than that man who professes to be a priest of the Church. It upsets me that learned men try to sway people away from the truth! What is their purpose? In another part of the book and I can’t remember where, Our Lady states that most people go to hell because of sins of the flesh!" It is better to believe in what the saints have stated and Our Lady than this man called “Father Barron”!
O.A. Manno
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Um, are you looking to find the same fate as Jerry-Jet? You are following in his footsteps.
I rather believe her than that man who professes to be a priest of the Church.
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It is also well-known that Fr. Gobbi is suspended from his faculties! You want us to believe *him? *Instead, you calumniate a priest in good standing who has not stated anything unorthodox whatsoever.

**Why are you clinging to the false idea that Father Barron and/or anyone else in this entire thread has said there is “no hell?” It is simply not true. **
 
The comments on fr. Barron’s YouTube video are 90% critical of his position.
 
Rosslyn,

I see you are still at it. :rolleyes: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11804826&postcount=6
I posted a thread about this same topic a while back. The thread was deleted. Expect this 1 to be gone too – only thing I can figure out is that we aren’t supposed to criticize priests on this forum.

Father Barron has forgotten more theology than I’ll ever know, but his universalism regarding all have a reasonable hope to be saved is not backed by scripture and simply bad theology.
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The comments on Fr. Barron’s YouTube video are 90% critical of his position.
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More slander. The comments on you-tube were positive. One has to wonder why so much controversy over a video that is now over 4 years old. Just plain old persecution, IMO.
 
Maybe people are reacting against what Fr Barron has said, because maybe, what he said was wrong? Or at the very least extremely unorthodox? Priests aren’t given the charism of infallibility.

I know Fr Barron isn’t explicitly stating he believes in universalism, but he’s getting as close as you can without outright saying it. The reality is that the Scripture and the Saints throughout history have stated that many souls go to Hell. Origen was condemned as a heretic for having a belief similar to the one Fr Barron is espousing here. It wasn’t until the 20th century and Hans Urs Von Balthasar that serious Catholic thinkers started taking seriously the pseudo-Universalism discussed here. To believe that the Holy Spirit gave the Church a very wrong attitude and understanding of hell, including both Jesus own statements and many Doctors of the Church, and think that it wasn’t until the 20th century that the Holy Spirit revealed the truth of the matter is mind boggling, IMO.

I understand that people want to sound compassionate and kind, which is the real reason behind this. But it has the opposite effect. 1) it scandalizes devout Protestants, who again see the Catholic Church teaching an unbiblical view and 2) it gives non-Christians as well atheists/agnostics a reason to not convert. Why give up sin, sex, lust, contraception, masturbation, greed, your time on Sundays, etc if you have a “reasonable hope” for salvation anyways?

I understand the heart behind it, but it doesn’t accomplish what it sets out to do. This attitude only pushes both Protestants and non-Christians away.
 
KEP1983 said:
I know Fr Barron isn’t explicitly stating he believes in universalism, but he’s getting as close as you can without outright saying it.
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People keep saying that Fr Barron is advocating for universalism (or, as you put it, KEP, he just isn’t outright saying it), but that’s not the case. To quote Inigo Montoya, “you keep using that word; I do not think it means what you think it means.”

Perhaps we’re simply talking past one another: please define for us what you think ‘universalism’ means; try to keep your definition precise, so that we have a good idea what that charge really implies.

Thank you!
 
KEP1983 said:
Maybe people are reacting against what Fr Barron has said, because maybe, what he said was wrong? Or at the very least extremely unorthodox?.
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Ok, what exactly did he “say?” I don’t think folks are willing to really listen, since their prejudice against him gets in their eyes and ears. I took out my shorthand pad (I can still do it after all these years, LOL) and have the exact sentence he used at 4:00 minutes of the video. I dare anyone else to try and say he is a universalist. Let’s put that accusation to bed, ok?
Hell is the final and definitive “no” to God’s love uttered from the depths of one’s soul. That is hell. Eternal suffering … yeah! … because it is this eternal “no” to the love that God is. …] God doesn’t so much send people there. People send themselves there.
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Where is the empty hell theory?
Where is the universalist theory of all men being saved?
Y’all are sipping or smoking something that blinds your reason!
 
I think what’s happening in this thread is that some folks are having a bit of a difficult time separating “possible” from “plausible.” My understanding of Fr. Barron is that it is theoretically “possible” for Hell to be empty and hoping that it is is a perfectly Christian thing to do. That doesn’t mean anyone is denying the truth that hell is destined to have occupants.

In other words, you can understand the possibility of something, and even wish for it, while still knowing it isn’t plausible.
 
Gorgias said:
People keep saying that Fr Barron is advocating for universalism (or, as you put it, KEP, he just isn’t outright saying it), but that’s not the case. To quote Inigo Montoya, “you keep using that word; I do not think it means what you think it means.”

Perhaps we’re simply talking past one another: please define for us what you think ‘universalism’ means; try to keep your definition precise, so that we have a good idea what that charge really implies.

Thank you!
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I know what Universalism and Origenism are.

There are slightly different flavors that fall under the umbrella of Universalism. Ultimately Universalism is the belief that everyone will go to Heaven. i.e. “Universal” salvation or as Origenism states “universal restoration.” Hence, "Universal"ism. A typical Universalist simply implies that all humans will be saved, while Origenism takes it a step further and states that even Satan and the fallen Angels would eventually be saved or restored. Basically Hell became Purgatory.

Fr Barron simply pulls back a little on the certainty of the statement-- which is officially a heresy-- and instead says there is a reasonable hope that all men might be saved. This gets him out of the outright heresy, since he isn’t stating his belief in Universalism with certainty, and he’s only addressing humans and not the fallen angels.
 
KEP1983 said:
Fr Barron simply pulls back a little on the certainty of the statement-- which is officially a heresy-- and instead says there is a reasonable hope that all men might be saved. This gets him out of the outright heresy, since he isn’t stating his belief in Universalism with certainty, and he’s only addressing humans and not the fallen angels.
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Again, where does he “say” that? Be specific please; use his exact words.
 
Sirach2 said:
I really think some of you are twisting Father Barron’s meaning beyond his intent. I heard the same words from his tape, but I understood it this way: “Yes, there is a hell, and people who are there have chosen with their free will to reject God. The Church does not oblige us to believe John, Dick, or Harry are there. Judgment belongs to God alone.”

Scroll back to 4:00 and you will not find him dismissing the teaching on hell. He upholds it.

Just as many take Pope Francis’s words and run with wild interpretations, some enjoy taking a single statement of a priest and nailing him to the cross with their misinterpretation. Please do me a favor and write to him for clarification if there is any doubt remaining after listening to his comments at 4:00 minutes.
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