Fr. Barron and hell?

[Convert2013]

I’m not saying he’s dismissing the teaching on Hell per se, but what I’ve highlighted, TO ME, appears to be a contradiction. I do not consider that a “wild” interpretation. I didn’t say it, I didn’t think it. He said it and I’ve highlighted what the Church teaches. What’s interpreted about that? It is what it is. I’m not twisting anything. Thanks!

 

[Sirach2]

I’m not saying he’s dismissing the teaching on Hell per se, but what I’ve highlighted, TO ME, appears to be a contradiction. I do not consider that a “wild” interpretation. I didn’t say it, I didn’t think it. He said it and I’ve highlighted what the Church teaches. What’s interpreted about that? It is what it is. I’m not twisting anything. Thanks!

You bolded this sentence:

We shouldn’t talk about God capriciously sending people to hell. We should think of Hell this way…If anyone’s in it, and by the way, the Church isn’t obliging that anyone to believe that any human being is in Hell". @ 6:38 of the video in the link.

Father explained that GOD doesn’t “capriciously” SEND people to hell, as an arbitrary off-the-cuff decision. No, Father explained his meaning clearly when he said the person who refuses God’s love sends himself to hell. You are nitpicking his words and applying a meaning that clearly he did not intend, if you listen to the entire message. Ah, but there will always be naysayers who find fault with clergy, and the Pope himself. They have nothing better to do than to parse a single sentence out of context and make the individual publicly appear as heretical.

 

[Dorothy]

I really think some of you are twisting Father Barron’s meaning beyond his intent. I heard the same words from his tape, but I understood it this way: “Yes, there is a hell, and people who are there have chosen with their free will to reject God. The Church does not oblige us to believe John, Dick, or Harry are there. Judgment belongs to God alone.”

Scroll back to 4:00 and you will not find him dismissing the teaching on hell. He upholds it.

Just as many take Pope Francis’s words and run with wild interpretations, some enjoy taking a single statement of a priest and nailing him to the cross with their misinterpretation. Please do me a favor and write to him for clarification if there is any doubt remaining after listening to his comments at 4:00 minutes.

I agree! It is hurtful to Father Barron and his excellent gift of teaching to have so many disrespect what he is trying to put forth.

 

[JimmyBru]

You know, I think one of the main questions we have to ask ourselves in this discussion is - Do we really hope (maybe use wish?) for all to be saved? Are we really concerned about and yearn for the salvation of souls?

Fr. Barron is a good priest, theologian and philosopher. He brings out thought-provoking insight and urges us to ponder more deeply into the Gospel and it’s meaning in our lives. This treatise on hell doesn’t go beyond the scope of what the church is teaching, but rather, magnifies the idea of ‘hope’ that should be evident in all Christian lives.

It is that HOPE that many can be saved that gives us joy in our meager existence. Whether we struggle, fail or just plain give up, we do have that Word of God to lift us back higher and better than we were - IF we let Him.

In light of that, we can be HOPEFUL that no matter what we do, He is merciful and will extend those nail-scarred hands in an embrace of forgiveness and love. It will be up to us to run to that embrace, or walk away and reject that love.

My mind’s eye can imagine that scene of one who walks away. If it would be a part of the Written Word, I think it would tie for the shortest verse in the Gospel, " Again, Jesus wept."

May God give us wisdom and open our eyes to His love.

 

[dailey]

I haven’t listened to the tape so I can’t comment on what father Barron said but in this day in age the LAST thing we need is for anyone to imply that hell could be empty. Why? Because too many people jump on the bandwagon that “everyone goes to heaven.” The last time I remember hearing about hell is when I was kid and the nuns taught us kids about it. They didn’t sugar-coat like they do now. Let’s not forget Jesus’s own words, “many knock, few will enter.”

 

[Convert2013]

You bolded this sentence:

Father explained that GOD doesn’t “capriciously” SEND people to hell, as an arbitrary off-the-cuff decision. No, Father explained his meaning clearly when he said the person who refuses God’s love sends himself to hell. You are nitpicking his words and applying a meaning that clearly he did not intend, if you listen to the entire message. Ah, but there will always be naysayers who find fault with clergy, and the Pope himself. They have nothing better to do than to parse a single sentence out of context and make the individual publicly appear as heretical.

1. I did listen to the entire message (thanks for the insinuation that I didn’t) 2. I’m not a naysayer! 3. I’m not trying to find fault with “clergy” or the Pope. I’ve apparently offended you as you are a Fr. Barron fan. Guess what!? So am I! I have learned a great deal from him AND enjoy listening to his talks and homilies.

What I did was point out a statement HE made and also (which you keep leaving out) what the Church teaches, which to me SEEMS contradictory to ME. So you’ve done the same thing you are accusing me of doing.

If you think that this is the first time anyone has had concerns with his views on Hell, you are misguided. I know personally of clergy (priests and deacons) who also have concerns with it. I suppose they must be naysayers who find fault with clergy!?

 

[Deep_Roots]

It’s interesting to see some Catholics making definitive statements regarding the salvation of certain men (hitler, Stalin, judas, ect). I wonder, did the Father reveal this to them? Or did the Father give license to judge them on His behalf? The Church teaches it is actually sinful to judge that someone is in hell, no matter who it is. Even Judas, whom Christ spoke poorly of, is immune to our judgement. Jesus forbade us from this kind of judgement and speculation.

Rather, we are literally obliged, by the command of the Church, to pray and hope for the salvation of each and every soul.

This isn’t denying that there is a hell, or that it is likely there are souls there, but rather obeying Christ and remembering that we are dust, and that judgement belongs to God alone.

AMEN

 

[Gorgias]

Father Barron has forgotten more theology than I’ll ever know, but his universalism regarding all have a reasonable hope to be saved is not backed by scripture and simply bad theology.

CAUTION: Highly technical, nit-picky theological point ahead. Wear suitable eye and head protection. You must be this tall to ride this ride. Not recommended for pregnant women and people with neck or back problems.

‘Universalism’ and ‘hoping that there are no human souls in hell’ are not identical propositions. The former is antithetical to Catholic theology, while the latter is well within the bounds of what the Church teaches.

There are two flavors of universalism – ‘necessary’ and ‘contingent’ universalism. Necessary universalism claims that it is a metaphysical impossibility that anyone could end up in hell. (This claim is usually justified by virtue of a discussion of the perceived injustice of eternal punishment or by an argument from God’s mercy.) Contingent universalism, on the other hand, offers that while it is technically possible that human(s) could end up in hell, it is the case that they will not. (Again, from similar arguments.)

However, holding on to the hope that all might be saved is not necessarily universalism. Salvation is an individual proposition: we are not saved – or condemned – as a whole or even as a sub-group of humanity. Rather, each of us is judged individually by God. Therefore, it is a theological impossibility to posit that we are all judged in one fell swoop. On the other hand, knowing that God wishes all to be saved, we hold on to the hope that God’s mercy might extend to each and every person who has lived or ever will live. We hope that all might turn to God and receive the reward of salvation that faith offers. This, however, is not universalism (even in its ‘contingent’ flavor).

So, if Fr Barron suggests that we might hope that no humans are (or will be) in hell, he is not endorsing universalism.

Just thought I’d clear that up for ya’ll…

 

[Sirach2]

What I did was point out a statement HE made and also (which you keep leaving out) what the Church teaches, which to me SEEMS contradictory to ME. So you’ve done the same thing you are accusing me of doing.

Well, if you watched the whole video, you would have heard his words that reflect the very CCC paragraph you quoted:

From CCC on Hell
1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: “He who does not love remains in death.”

Father clearly pointed out that we have free will, and may freely to choose to LOVE God or REJECT him. I can only conclude that you are being arbitrarily contentious and picking at Father’s words to make him look [heretical, foolish, uniformed about our faith, other labels?]

Not going to argue any further. Think what you will, since your will is ALSO free.

 

[Nelka]

Hell exists even Jesus says so many times.

Matthew 23:33 'You serpents, brood of vipers, how can you escape being condemned to hell?

Don’t believe anyone who tells you Hell doesn’t exist.

 

[Deep_Roots]

I am definitely in the category of people who believe in a Hell, believe that it’s very very possible that people will end up there, but also believe/hope that Hell will ultimately be emptied of all that it contains.

The fire of the Love of God will cause the dross of impurity to rise to the top, be discarded, and result in pure gold in all beings.

I look to St. Gregory of Nyssa a lot on this issue – my patron saint.

Additionally, I love the attitude of St. Isaac the Syrian on these matters. He prayed even for the demons and Satan.

These are my hopes. God’s fire is the fire of God’s love. That fire cannot be escaped. Some experience that fire as torture (for a period of time) while others exult in that love. Either way, it is my hope that eventually that fire will be experienced BY ALL BEINGS as love, and thus as heaven.

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

Hell exists even Jesus says so many times.

Matthew 23:33 'You serpents, brood of vipers, how can you escape being condemned to hell?

Don’t believe anyone who tells you Hell doesn’t exist.

Who here has argued that Hell doesn’t exist? Certainly not Fr. Barron nor any other poster that I can recall.

 

[Memaw]

I agree! It is hurtful to Father Barron and his excellent gift of teaching to have so many disrespect what he is trying to put forth.

Especially Catholics that should know better and could know better if they would just study their faith properly. God Bless, Memaw.

 

[Catolico65]

“man himself freely chooses it by rejecting God’s love.”

What is also certain is that men will also choose God but it will be too late and they will be condemned to hell against their will:

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you.* Depart from me, you evildoers.*

Also, since I am a sinner I sometimes wonder if I am in aforementioned category as well. This is good because it causes me to fear God in the Catholic sense and causes me to strive to resist sin, love others with compassion and excel in the areas that God has blessed me with

 

[mlz]

Oh my, never would it be my intention to show disrespect to Fr. Barren but rather some clarification as it was confusing. Coming as a convert from a very liberal Protestant background I am concerned about the liberal view of " God is love and doesn’t want us to live holy lives as we all will be saved… I’ve seen this seen so prevalent and fellow " Christians" not living well on their faith which led me to look for a faith that was True and solid- God led me to the Catholic faith and I am sensitive to seeing our Lord respected and lives lived in holiness as is for me to strive for first . No I’ll will in this question- just wanting clarification .

My greatest question is why our dear saints ( Ex. Sister Faustina) spoke very clearly about seeing souls in hell and having a strong desire to pray for souls and their salvation as well as Fatima as well…I have a call to pray for lost souls and don’t want people to feel there is no need to pray for souls- this seems to be the work of the evil one to not see a need???
My love in Christ,
mlz

 

[Sirach2]

MLZ, it seems you are unduly alarmed as if this alleged faux-paux of Fr. Barron’s is the teaching of the universal Church, and of scripture. Surely, you know better than to think this, I hope. Whether Father meant it as some have interpreted, or whether he was speaking off the cuff and his words were misunderstood, it should have no bearing on your faith whatsoever. Continue to pray for the lost, as this is very pleasing to God. I do so regularly, since most of my family are not practicing their faith in any way.

Meanwhile, if it alarms you or your husband that Father’s words seemed unorthodox, I can only ask that you write to him and ask him to explain, or else give him the benefit of the doubt, particularly, since he clarified his teaching on the reality of hell, stating clearly that those who reject God’s love will place themselves there.

As for St. Faustina and other saints who had visions of hell, God was preparing them for an exalted ministry that the memory of this vision would enable them to suffer willingly for the purpose of saving many souls. Keep in mind the Good Shepherd who leaves the 99 in the fold and goes out for the one that is lost. God does not desire that any soul would perish. A good read for lent would be St. Faustina’s Diary and reflections of God’s infinite mercy, His greatest attribute! Here’s a good reflection from her Diary:

1698 I often attend upon the dying and through entreaties obtain for them trust in God’s mercy, and I implore God for an abundance of divine grace, which is always victorious. God’s mercy sometimes touches the sinner at the last moment in a wondrous and mysterious way. Outwardly, it seems as if everything were lost, but it is not so. The soul, illumined by a ray of God’s powerful final grace, turns to God in the last moment with such a power of love that, in an instant, it receives from God forgiveness of sin and punishment, while outwardly it shows no sign either of repentance or of contrition, because souls [at that stage] no longer react to external things.

Oh, how beyond comprehension is God’s mercy! But – horror! – there are also souls who voluntarily and consciously reject and scorn this grace! Although a person is at the point of death, the merciful God gives the soul that interior vivid moment, so that if the soul is willing, it has the possibility of returning to God. But sometimes, the obduracy in souls is so great that consciously they choose hell; they [thus] make useless all the prayers that other souls offer to God for them and even the efforts of God Himself……

 

[Catolico65]

Oh my, never would it be my intention to show disrespect to Fr. Barren but rather some clarification as it was confusing. Coming as a convert from a very liberal Protestant background I am concerned about the liberal view of " God is love and doesn’t want us to live holy lives as we all will be saved… I’ve seen this seen so prevalent and fellow " Christians" not living well on their faith which led me to look for a faith that was True and solid- God led me to the Catholic faith and I am sensitive to seeing our Lord respected and lives lived in holiness as is for me to strive for first . No I’ll will in this question- just wanting clarification .

My greatest question is why our dear saints ( Ex. Sister Faustina) spoke very clearly about seeing souls in hell and having a strong desire to pray for souls and their salvation as well as Fatima as well…I have a call to pray for lost souls and don’t want people to feel there is no need to pray for souls- this seems to be the work of the evil one to not see a need???
My love in Christ,
mlz

Regarding the comment that Catholics aren’t obligated to believe people are in hell I would like to see more opinion from the Church because I find this to be a conflict with what I have learned and read. The opinion that people have 100% control of whether they go to heaven or hell seems to be at odds with the fact that some people will indeed desire to go to heaven at the end of their life but will be sent to hell nonetheless according to Jesus Himself.

Nonetheless, I understand the concept because I used to believe it as well. I attribute this in my case to a real fear of damnation and immature understanding of God’s plan for a period after my “conversion”.

I am also concerned with taking this concept to it’s logical conclusion and the negative consequences.

 

[Back2Church]

Yep, okay, I don’t have to believe that Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin are in hell, and in fact according to Fr Baron there is a “reasonable hope” that they are not in hell, by virtue of the fact that the church doesn’t say whether anyone is in hell.

He’s normally a solid guy to listen to, but this is pretty silly.

What’s your concept of justice? Before you answer, think on this:

Which is greater justice: Adolph Hitler burning in hell, still believing he is right in all he believed, or Adolph Hitler coming to repentance, fully understanding, horrified by, shameful of, and truly sorrowful for all the horrors he committed?

Which is a more righteous form of justice: Richard Dawkins burning in hell as a self-appointed enemy of faith and religion, or Richard Dawkins acknowledging the truth and turning to God in humble repentance?

Come up with your own example. How is justice better served: by punishing those who remain in error, or by rehabilitating them when they realize their error? What should we, as Christians, hope for?

I know it’s difficult for us to ever think about someone like Hitler ever being forgiven by God, much less by us. But that should tell us something. We are more inclined to wish for punishment dealt to evil than to see evil transformed. But try to imagine it from God’s point of view. Imagine your own child growing up to be a murderer or something horrible. What do you think you would wish for? That your child would be punished to the maximum possible? Or do you think you would more likely wish for your child to be completely changed, fully understand the wrongs he committed, and display sorrow and compassion to his victims and everyone else he hurt? Now what do you imagine God thinks about someone like Hitler? Does God hope he burns in hell, or does God hope that, even if it’s at the last minute of his life, Hitler becomes truly repentant?

So where does true justice lie? In the punishment of the offender, or in the offender’s sorrow?

No, I don’t think Fr. Barron’s comments are silly by any means. The hope that hell is empty is rooted in love and forgiveness. That doesn’t mean he expects it to be empty or that he actually thinks it will remain so. It’s simply a hope and a statement of love.

 

[Catolico65]

We are more inclined to wish for punishment dealt to evil than to see evil transformed.

No wonder people are so confused.

Nonetheless, the Truth has little to do with our understanding of the latter. According to the Bible people will go to hell against their will.

Regarding Hitler, while I would like to think everyone could go to heaven the issue that he very probably killed himself isn’t helping his case. Nonetheless, who knows how many good Catholics have said prayers of intercession for him?

 

[Sirach2]

Catolico65:

The opinion that people have 100% control of whether they go to heaven or hell seems to be at odds with the fact that some people will indeed desire to go to heaven at the end of their life but will be sent to hell nonetheless according to Jesus Himself.

According to the Bible people will go to hell against their will.

What a broad brush you paint this scripture with. How awry is your interpretation of Jesus’ words! There is no way to understand our Lord’s meaning that certain persons will be surprised at the moment of judgment and be sent to hell, after a person has truly lived a holy life following God’s will. What is worse, is that you want others to believe your POV, and have posted this three times now.

Please read the correct interpretation from the Bishops’ website:

• 7:15–20] Christian disciples who claimed to speak in the name of God are called prophets (Mt 7:15) in Mt 10:41; Mt 23:34. They were presumably an important group within the church of Matthew. As in the case of the Old Testament prophets, there were both true and false ones, and for Matthew the difference could be recognized by the quality of their deeds, the fruits (Mt 7:16). The mention of fruits leads to the comparison with trees, some producing good fruit, others bad.
• 7:21–23] The attack on the false prophets is continued, but is broadened to include those disciples who perform works of healing and exorcism in the name of Jesus (Lord) but live evil lives. Entrance into the kingdom is only for those who do the will of the Father. On the day of judgment (on that day) the morally corrupt prophets and miracle workers will be rejected by Jesus.