Fr. Barron's Catholicism and my parish church -

[QuestingKnight]

http://a.abcnews.com/images/Politics/ap_emil_kapaun_medal_lpl_130411_wg.jpg

intentionally unpretentious. CHECK

little room for mystery. CHECK

no awe inspiring ceilings or stained glass windows. DOUBLE CHECK

the music is unbearably distracting. CHECK (discordant gunfire)

obviously, not a place where you can find the Spirit.

Because Mass can be said on a battlefield, does it follow that your local Church should be as barren, noisy and distracting as a battlefield?

No. But that it what your posting implies. It’s faulty reasoning.

Bishops and priests need to fully grasp that they are principally offering a sacrifice to a god in the hope that he will favour them and their congregation in return. Everything that you will see at a TLM, in an ornate church, follows from this premise: petitioning, thanksgiving, propitiation and adoration.

Now, if the mass is principally a social gathering of the as-good-as-saved, a banquet with friends, then what you see in many churches makes perfect sense: the music, the laity in the holy place, handing out the bread to a queue, the amiability etc. No one is sombre at a feast. You don’t kneel. You don’t need to spend as much money on decor. Your layout will be different. You won’t need so many icons.

I would say the latter view is not explicitly taught. Or at least, it’s not traditional. But it seems very popular.

 

[ringil]

I do kind of wish I wasn’t so fixated on the external appearance of the Church and the quality of the music but, at this point, I am.

I really have to work to feel inspired in a really modern looking church with bad music.

If I have a more mature faith I don’t feel this would be so.

 

[Fairwinds]

I do kind of wish I wasn’t so fixated on the external appearance of the Church and the quality of the music but, at this point, I am. …

why?

 

[ringil]

why?

Because faith doesn’t need these things. I should be able to feel close to God irrespective of architecture and music. For me it is slightly more than preference for more classical architecture. I actually have a harder time getting a lot out of mass.

For me, I feel that is the problem.

 

[Fairwinds]

Because faith doesn’t need these things. I should be able to feel close to God irrespective of architecture and music. For me it is slightly more than preference for more classical architecture. I actually have a harder time getting a lot out of mass.

For me, I feel that is the problem.

maybe your problem is that you’re focusing on classical architecture.

 

[ringil]

maybe your problem is that you’re focusing on classical architecture.

That could be it. I do work at it though, when I feel my mind wandering at mass to “UGH this church is ugly” or “this music is so bad!” I do bring my attention back to what is important but it can be a struggle.

Never had a spiritual director so have no idea. I’ve just always been into the more ornate and classical architecture and shunned the 70’s and 80’s style of Churches and the music.

Maybe some baggage from when I was a kid- hard to say. . .

 

[Fairwinds]

That could be it. I do work at it though, when I feel my mind wandering at mass to “UGY this church is ugly” or “this music is so bad!” I do bring my attention back to what is important but it can be a struggle.

Never had a spiritual director so have no idea. I’ve just always been into the more ornate and classical architecture and shunned the 70’s and 80’s style of Churches and the music.

Maybe some baggage from when I was a kid- hard to say. . .

I hear you. my mind shuts down when I hear Latin.

 

[ringil]

I hear you. my mind shuts down when I hear Latin.

Yes, it’s weird how our preferences can get in the way of meeting God.

 

[Ontheway]

Because faith doesn’t need these things. I should be able to feel close to God irrespective of architecture and music. For me it is slightly more than preference for more classical architecture. I actually have a harder time getting a lot out of mass.

For me, I feel that is the problem.

Your feelings are not unique. It seems that they are shared by many.
A few years back this book was published: Catholic Church Architecture and the Spirit of the Liturgy

by Dr. Denis McNamara
2009 Liturgy Training Publications,

And here is a bit from a review by Fr. Vincenzino from the Institute of Sacred Architecture:

The architectural destruction wrought upon the faithful since Vatican Council II was documented powerfully in Michael Rose’s Ugly as Sin, but Denis McNamara has gone a step farther, establishing a connection between that destruction and a “theology” that has rendered the sacred liturgy and its architectural settings inadequate for expressing the dogmas of proper Catholic worship as confirmed by the writings of Pope Benedict XVI, both as cardinal and pope.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Because faith doesn’t need these things. I should be able to feel close to God irrespective of architecture and music. For me it is slightly more than preference for more classical architecture. I actually have a harder time getting a lot out of mass.

For me, I feel that is the problem.

We humans need these things. We can never escape our constraints.

 

[ringil]

Your feelings are not unique. It seems that they are shared by many.
A few years back this book was published: Catholic Church Architecture and the Spirit of the Liturgy

by Dr. Denis McNamara
2009 Liturgy Training Publications,

And here is a bit from a review by Fr. Vincenzino from the Institute of Sacred Architecture:

The architectural destruction wrought upon the faithful since Vatican Council II was documented powerfully in Michael Rose’s Ugly as Sin, but Denis McNamara has gone a step farther, establishing a connection between that destruction and a “theology” that has rendered the sacred liturgy and its architectural settings inadequate for expressing the dogmas of proper Catholic worship as confirmed by the writings of Pope Benedict XVI, both as cardinal and pope.

I believe this notion may be taking it a bit far.

I do prefer more classical churches and more traditional music. I do attend the EF on accession and like it.

On the whole though, God can and should be found irrespective of personal preference.

I do agree with some issues related to theology and linkages to architecture but these not-so-attractive churches are what we have. We can do what we can to improve them but they have been built.

We have to work with what we have. Plus these new churches do tend to have good lighting- I will give them that- (looking for the positives)

 

[ringil]

We humans need these things. We can never escape our constraints.

I think we “can”. Yes, beautiful worship adds to our spiritual lives, but if the essentials of the Mass are there then everything else “should” be swallowed up in that solemnity.

The fact that I have to hear “On Eagle’s Wings” is a pretty poor excuse to have a distant relationship with God.

In fact I have a hunch that God may be using my problems with 70’s and 80’s style stuff to advance my relationship with him- I need to humble myself.

Like I said, for me it is more than preference- and it is that “more” that, for me- is the problem.

 

[QuestingKnight]

I think we “can”. Yes, beautiful worship adds to our spiritual lives, but if the essentials of the Mass are there then everything else “should” be swallowed up in that solemnity.

The fact that I have to hear “On Eagle’s Wings” is a pretty poor excuse to have a distant relationship with God.

In fact I have a hunch that God may be using my problems with 70’s and 80’s style stuff to advance my relationship with him- I need to humble myself.

Like I said, for me it is more than preference- and it is that “more” that, for me- is the problem.

Don’t fret about it. You are correct in your feelings. It is reasonable to expect beauty and solemnity in a Catholic mass, given its stated purpose; the adoration, petitioning, propitiation and thanksgiving of Almighty God.

It’s only historically recently that we laity have been expected to feel religious awe at a mass which has been deliberately directed toward the congregation and to their level.

It’s comical that people who express doubts about these changes are told that it’s they who are at fault and that they should be able to pray in spite of what’s going on in church rather than being inspired by it!

 

[Fairwinds]

Because Mass can be said on a battlefield, does it follow that your local Church should be as barren, noisy and distracting as a battlefield?

No. But that it what your posting implies. It’s faulty reasoning. …

don’t tell me what I’m saying and don’t set up straw men at my expense.

the OP:

D you think that the old fashioned churches, stained glass, organ music etc. are an important element in your experience of the holy in the church?

(emphasis added)

the answer is in **my **experience, no they’re not.

only by a gross misreading of my comments can anyone infer that I’m suggesting any church should be as loud and noisy as a battlefield.

 

[Fairwinds]

Don’t fret about it. You are correct in your feelings. It is reasonable to expect beauty and solemnity in a Catholic mass, …

except on battlefields.

 

[Francoist]

Just because the King can make His Presence known on the battlefield does not mean that His throne room ought to have the ambiance of a crater, or be a man-glorifying modernist artistic experiment.

Christ is your King. Is He a glorious King? If so then you should spare no expense in building Him a glorious palace.

Does beauty not exist… is it all relative? The Church has never said so. So why have orange carpeting and strange geometric designs? Why have a bare, spartan ‘facility’ more appropriate to the dour Calvinist heretics?

Christ is the King. Glorify Him in everything.

That is how I see it.

 

[QuestingKnight]

My own modern unadorned church has drab brick and mortar walls and seems intentionally unpretentious. There is little room for mystery in it. There are no awe inspiring ceilings or stained glass windows. The music is unbearably distracting and not spiritual in any perceivable way.

http://a.abcnews.com/images/Politics/ap_emil_kapaun_medal_lpl_130411_wg.jpg

intentionally unpretentious. CHECK

little room for mystery. CHECK

no awe inspiring ceilings or stained glass windows. DOUBLE CHECK

the music is unbearably distracting. CHECK (discordant gunfire)

obviously, not a place where you can find the Spirit.

QuestingKnight;:

Don’t fret about it. You are correct in your feelings. It is reasonable to expect beauty and solemnity in a Catholic mass, …

Fairwinds;:

except on battlefields.

We assume that the priest and laity on a battlefield are doing the best they can, in the most extreme circumstances. They are attempting to enact a scared rite in a war zone, with limited supplies. Poor parishes can make beautiful churches with solemn liturgies, given 100 years, in much more comfortable circumstances. They do not have the excuse of working in a war zone.

What can we say about 100+ year-old parishes that set up their church like a meeting hall and take the idea of ‘the People’s Mass’ as meaning the People must be prominent in every part and place in the Mass?

We can say that they are misguided or rebellious if that is not what the Church wants or that they are dilgent and faithful if that is what the Church wants. Because it doesn’t happen by accident. Someone wants it that way.

 

[Fairwinds]

…

What can we say about 100+ year-old parishes that set up their church like a meeting hall and take the idea of ‘the People’s Mass’ as meaning the People must be prominent in every part and place in the Mass?..

given the argumentative nature of your posts, I’ve got to ask for sources, examples, evidence, especially showing the intention of the pastor or bishop to set up a church like a meeting hall. its not that I don’t believe you, of course, but you do like setting up straw men.

if I remember, Father Barron’s series Catholicism also had a look at Blessed Teresa of Calcutta’s convent? parish? there were sisters at Mass. kinda looked like a meeting hall. I may be mistaken, but it seemed materially impoverished. would that pass muster for you? – holy enough? Spirit present?

 

[Ontheway]

We assume that the priest and laity on a battlefield are doing the best they can, in the most extreme circumstances. They are attempting to enact a scared rite in a war zone, with limited supplies. Poor parishes can make beautiful churches with solemn liturgies, given 100 years, in much more comfortable circumstances. They do not have the excuse of working in a war zone.

What can we say about 100+ year-old parishes that set up their church like a meeting hall and take the idea of ‘the People’s Mass’ as meaning the People must be prominent in every part and place in the Mass?

We can say that they are misguided or rebellious if that is not what the Church wants or that they are dilgent and faithful if that is what the Church wants. Because it doesn’t happen by accident. Someone wants it that way.

Very well put. It is about dignity, sanctity and worship. This can be done at the battlefield.
I personally had the experience of participating in the mass on a factory floor in Moscow. It once was a church, but the Soviets converted it to a factory and the faithful were just in the process of recovering their once beautiful church. It was probably one of the very first services they were permitted to hold inside the church - factory.
There were a few rough benches, broken down chairs and a table which served as an altar. The floor was covered in oil and we used newspapers to kneel on.

The faithful did not need adornments to participate in the sacred mystery. They had just won the right to worship in their old church and they were thrilled.
However, I have to assume that by now they would have restored the church to its former glory.

 

[YoungTradCath]

We assume that the priest and laity on a battlefield are doing the best they can, in the most extreme circumstances. They are attempting to enact a scared rite in a war zone, with limited supplies.

But why do we tend to compare apples to oranges and apply the realistic limitations of battlefield Masses to the less rigorous realities of parish life? The two have little to do with each other, practically speaking.