Fr. Groeschel compared illegal immigrants to slaves

[Amolibri]

If I understand correctly, the right to break the law only comes into moral play if one’s life is in serious jeopardy, like starvation or in need of shelter. If that is the case, where is the evidence that the majority of illegal immigrants are doing so for this reason?

Perhaps they can get a better life/job here. That’s why we have historically welcomed immigrants via a legal process.

Those who in this thread and elsewhere who are quite eager to visualize illegal immigrants as just trying to avoid life threatening poverty are welcome to produce evidence for such a belief. Perhaps evidence that their peers who did not migrate illegally are dying.

May I recommend that you (re) read Fitswimmer’s post???
In case you don’t know what I’m referring to:
**

You want to end illegal immigration? Make it harder for companies that employ them-fine them enough that it’s a clear financial disadvantage to employ illegals and enforce those fines.

**
Why do you ignore the “demand” side of this equation??

 

[Jennifer123]

Have you SEEN any public hospitals or public schools lately? I don’t think anyone who uses them is getting true value for money.

The point still stands that you will get more, or can potentially get more, out of it than they do if you both pay the same. You have access to services that they don’t. If they pay the same as you in taxes as you they should have the same access to services that you do, it’s as simple as that. Including things like free legal representation if they get arrested (their taxes pay for those public defenders just like yours, after all).

But how does encouraging illegal immigration act to stop this injustice? Their only recourse is to become legal citizens, which they are currently not encouraged to do. We are encouraged by our same church to respect the laws of our government as to encourage responsible civic life.

 

[puzzleannie]

i
i don’t get the concern about the enforcement of the law breaking up families. the families are broken because the illegals are entering illegally, right?
.

yeah and if there was not an American employer standing by to hire them–breaking about a dozen laws in the process–they would not be here either. You want enforcement? yeah so do I lets enforce the law on those making the big bucks, not the guy making less than minimum wage. Until I see that, my lack of respect for immigration law in general will remain.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

But how is encouraging illegal immigration act to stop this injustice? Their only recourse is to become legal citizens, which they are currently not encouraged to do. We are encouraged by our same church to respect the laws of our government as to encourage responsible civic life.

Actually, they’re not even permitted to become legal resident at this point. In fact, a person who is deported is barred from attempting to apply for no less than 10 years. Any attempt to do allow people to normalize their status is misrepresented as “amnesty,” even though there are usually hefty fines and such involved.

 

[Jennifer123]

Actually, they’re not even permitted to become legal resident at this point. In fact, a person who is deported is barred from attempting to apply for no less than 10 years. Any attempt to do allow people to normalize their status is misrepresented as “amnesty,” even though there are usually hefty fines and such involved.

My point is that there needs to be immigration reform, no doubt about that, but to ignore illegality is not compassionate IMHO. There are so many bad effects of the illegal act of becoming an illegal citizen, both to Mexican and US nationals. Render unto Cesar - we are encouraged to be responsible citizens, not only of the US, but of the world. Many other citizens of the world are accepted into the US, legally, Mexican citizens are not the only minority who wish to live and work in the US.

Maybe it is time to enact some form of visa program for agribusiness and the like, much like we have for other professions here in the US that import foreign workers.

 

[MarcoPolo]

May I recommend that you (re) read Fitswimmer’s post???
In case you don’t know what I’m referring to:

---

Why do you ignore the “demand” side of this equation??

I have not ignored the demand side of the equation. I agree with Fitswimmer and almost posted his identical sentiment regarding our colluding political parties.

 

[chicago]

What you say is true, but my problem is that they are treated this way because they are illegal and hence have very little legal recourse. They need to be encouraged to learn english so they will become literate members of US society. IMHO they are treated like a lower caste by the those who want cheap childcare and housekeeping. Keeping them illegal and illiterate is not helping anyone.

So what about the Irish immigrants I have encountered who speak and read fluent English, but are treated the same way?

There are entire villages void of men and fathers. Many men take up second families here in the US even as they are still legally married in Mexico.

That is not compassionate. The children of Mexico deserve their fathers.

Agreed. We need to help them better develop their own economies so that they will not have to leave their families behind for the American dollar.

 

[savedsinner]

My wife works with our parishes migrant ministry, where they go out to the migrant camps here in western Oregon during the summer.

I have gone out a few times, and I will never forget the conditions that these people are subjected to.

Several years ago, we would work at a camp called ‘camp azul’.
The buildings were made of plywood, about 10’ x 10’, no windows, no air conditioning or any ventelation except for the windows, and had bunks for about 8 to 10 men. The central restroom for the camp which was coed, and contained the showers with no curtains, had no sewage, it all just poured out of the ground. They were charged a rent which was most of their pay to live in this, how do I say it politely, dump.
I just finished reading “roots” by Alex Haley, and the conditions he describes in the slave quarters really reminded me of what I saw at camp azul.

When people equate illegals to the crime problem, that is quite unfair. There is gang membership in every group in todays society, there are black gangs, hispanic gangs, asian gangs, white gangs.
There are many people from Latin America who though here illegally, have strong family values, and hate the gang violence just as most of our society do. Most of these people seem to have more of a strong family value than most of the white Anglo’s who are here legally.

I also have recently re-read the grapes of wrath, and the way today’s society views illegal immigrants really reminds me of how the people during the depression were viewing and treating the ‘okies’ who and lost their farms and how do do migrant work back then. I guess history repeats itself.

Maybe people should maybe read some books like the ones I mentioned or maybe read and live the gospel and love instead of hate.
I don’t remember where Jesus told to us to hate our neighbor.

 

[Dee_Dee_King]

he’s absolutely correct. the idea that we should allow people to work here and deny them their due benefits such as minimum wage and social security (guest worker program) is like slave labor, a sin that cries to heaven.

if our government implicitly accepts their work, they deserve all benefits due to them. also, we should not break up families. the disparity in wealth between us and them is such that that families are being broken up between the two countries.

ideally, we would work to fix problems in central/south america so they would stay there and not create a market in the u.s. for cheap labor.

 

[chicago]

Maybe it is time to enact some form of visa program for agribusiness and the like, much like we have for other professions here in the US that import foreign workers.

The U.S. government actually refused to extend and renew provisions for temporary migrant workers who return to their country of origin in the off season. The matter is embroiled in political and ideological infighting while both the workers and their employers suffer.

 

[rlg94086]

ideally, we would work to fix problems in central/south america so they would stay there and not create a market in the u.s. for cheap labor.

Agreed. However, there is a lot that is out of our control. We could invest and help our neighbors to the South with their infrastructure, but they need to clean up the corruption in their governments and free their people to succeed.

 

[Jennifer123]

The U.S. government actually refused to extend and renew provisions for temporary migrant workers who return to their country of origin in the off season. The matter is embroiled in political and ideological infighting while both the workers and their employers suffer.

This may be true but I still don’t know how condoning the breaking of civil laws and the host of problems it creates solves anything.

I live in a rural area and there are citizens here who need work and they would do agricultural work if it paid what US laws dictate legal workers should be paid. It is hard to compete with the underground economy.

These people are terribly abused by the economy created to smuggle them into this country. They are taken advantage of here in the US due to their illegal status. Their children suffer from lack of family unity at home.

It just isn’t worth it, spiritually and physically, for them to migrate north and stay illegal and IMHO the Church should be telling them that instead of offering sanctuary and condoning their illegal behavior.

To ignore that is probably doing more harm to the reform movement than helping it IMHO.

 

[juliamajor]

My wife works with our parishes migrant ministry, where they go out to the migrant camps here in western Oregon during the summer.

I have gone out a few times, and I will never forget the conditions that these people are subjected to.

Several years ago, we would work at a camp called ‘camp azul’.
The buildings were made of plywood, about 10’ x 10’, no windows, no air conditioning or any ventelation except for the windows, and had bunks for about 8 to 10 men. The central restroom for the camp which was coed, and contained the showers with no curtains, had no sewage, it all just poured out of the ground. They were charged a rent which was most of their pay to live in this, how do I say it politely, dump.
I just finished reading “roots” by Alex Haley, and the conditions he describes in the slave quarters really reminded me of what I saw at camp azul.

When people equate illegals to the crime problem, that is quite unfair. There is gang membership in every group in todays society, there are black gangs, hispanic gangs, asian gangs, white gangs.
There are many people from Latin America who though here illegally, have strong family values, and hate the gang violence just as most of our society do. Most of these people seem to have more of a strong family value than most of the white Anglo’s who are here legally.

I also have recently re-read the grapes of wrath, and the way today’s society views illegal immigrants really reminds me of how the people during the depression were viewing and treating the ‘okies’ who and lost their farms and how do do migrant work back then. I guess history repeats itself.

Maybe people should maybe read some books like the ones I mentioned or maybe read and live the gospel and love instead of hate.
I don’t remember where Jesus told to us to hate our neighbor.

Thank your wife for her ministry and you for your witness- God Bless you-continue the work of the Gospel

 

[marymol]

My wife works with our parishes migrant ministry, where they go out to the migrant camps here in western Oregon during the summer.

I have gone out a few times, and I will never forget the conditions that these people are subjected to.

Several years ago, we would work at a camp called ‘camp azul’.
The buildings were made of plywood, about 10’ x 10’, no windows, no air conditioning or any ventelation except for the windows, and had bunks for about 8 to 10 men. The central restroom for the camp which was coed, and contained the showers with no curtains, had no sewage, it all just poured out of the ground. They were charged a rent which was most of their pay to live in this, how do I say it politely, dump.
I just finished reading “roots” by Alex Haley, and the conditions he describes in the slave quarters really reminded me of what I saw at camp azul.

When people equate illegals to the crime problem, that is quite unfair. There is gang membership in every group in todays society, there are black gangs, hispanic gangs, asian gangs, white gangs.
There are many people from Latin America who though here illegally, have strong family values, and hate the gang violence just as most of our society do. Most of these people seem to have more of a strong family value than most of the white Anglo’s who are here legally.

I also have recently re-read the grapes of wrath, and the way today’s society views illegal immigrants really reminds me of how the people during the depression were viewing and treating the ‘okies’ who and lost their farms and how do do migrant work back then. I guess history repeats itself.

Maybe people should maybe read some books like the ones I mentioned or maybe read and live the gospel and love instead of hate.
I don’t remember where Jesus told to us to hate our neighbor.

And it is a shame that the ACLU
doesn’t go after worthy causes such as these !

As many Ecoli scares and recallls and all the related waste and expenses and lives in danger - we get a mini glimpse of the wrath we are reaping too , for such unjust treatment of these hard working migrants !

But then again we have been told - the world is in the grip of the …

Good to read of the occasional glimmers of light and compasssion !

 

[chicago]

These people are terribly abused by the economy created to smuggle them into this country. They are taken advantage of here in the US due to their illegal status. Their children suffer from lack of family unity at home.

Given.

It just isn’t worth it, spiritually and physically, for them to migrate north and stay illegal and IMHO the Church should be telling them that instead of offering sanctuary and condoning their illegal behavior.

So what should the Church’s approach be? Turn them away saying, “Go home and starve!” instead of offering practical assistance and ministry in the real circumstances?

To ignore that is probably doing more harm to the reform movement than helping it IMHO.

Perhaps, in the larger scheme of things. But that doesn’t mean that in the here and now it is not, simply, what it is and in need of immediate attention, also.

 

[puzzleannie]

if you enjoy the benefits of what America has now, the least expensive, best quality, most varied food available in the world, you had better pray on your hands and knees that nobody passes immigration reform, or enforces the laws already on the books. Price of poultry, any meat processed in a packing house (95% of what is consumed), produce fresh, frozen and canned will skyrocket if “they” are not allowed to work these jobs for substandard pay in appalling working conditions.

 

[Amolibri]

if you enjoy the benefits of what America has now, the least expensive, best quality, most varied food available in the world, you had better pray on your hands and knees that nobody passes immigration reform, or enforces the laws already on the books. Price of poultry, any meat processed in a packing house (95% of what is consumed), produce fresh, frozen and canned will skyrocket if “they” are not allowed to work these jobs for substandard pay in appalling working conditions.

Excellent points…good thread.
How some people can keep pointing at the illegality of the workers and ignore the illegal acts of the employers is beyond me. IF there were no jobs, do you seriously think that we’d have the problems we’ve got???
(we’d have OTHER problems, as annie so points out so well)

 

[chicago]

But what would you tell that equally needy individual at the rear of the line who followed the rules, waited patiently, and came within seconds of getting his “whatever,” but was shut out because the line was closed down just as his turn had finally arrived. What about his needs and those of his family? How would you explain your “good deed” to him? What Christian principle covers the injustice of his not receiving that which he had a right to receive, and would have received, had you not permitted another person to take what should have been his?

One might share with the man left out half (or dare I suggest all) of your own bread.

 

[RachelsAlumni]

Fr. Groeschel is speaking the Truth!

Undocumented farmworkers are treated like slaves.

As recently as about 6 weeks ago, on May 16th 2008 a young woman, Maria Isabel Vasquez Jimenez, died from heatstroke working in a California vineyard in a 95+ degree heatwave. The nearest drinking water was a 10 minute hike and the foreman would not allow the workers time to get to the water and back for breaks. The employer also did not provide shade for them to cool off.

“The life of a farmworker isn’t important to people,” says Arturo Rodriguez, the president of the United Farm Workers union

… “People just don’t care. … The reality is that the machinery of growers is taken better care of than the lives of farmworkers. You wouldn’t take a machine out into the field without putting oil in it. How can you take the life of a person and not even give them the basics?”

On May 14, the official temperature was 95 degrees; it was even hotter inside the wine grape vineyard owned by West Coast Grape Farming, east of Stockton, where Maria and her fiancé, Florentino Bautista, worked. Maria had been working for nine hours.

At 3:40 p.m. Maria became dizzy. She didn’t know where she was and didn’t recognize Florentino. Maria passed out. Florentino helplessly held her in his arms.

There was no water for the workers from 6 a.m. to 10:30 a.m. When water arrived, it was a 10-minute walk from where Maria was working, too far to access. There was no shade or training for foremen and workers about what to do if someone became ill from the heat—as required by law.

The foreman came over and stood four or five feet away, staring at the couple for about five minutes. He said, “Oh, that’s what happens to people, but don’t worry. If you apply some rubbing alcohol to her, it will go away.” It didn’t.

After a number of delays Maria was taken to a clinic… the foreman called on the driver’s cell phone and spoke to Florentino. “If you take her to a clinic,” the foreman said, “don’t say she was working [for the contractor]. Say she became sick because she was jogging to get exercise. Since she’s underage, it will create big problems for us.”

They arrived at the clinic at 5:15 p.m., more than an hour and a half after Maria was stricken. She was so sick an ambulance took her to the hospital. Doctors said her temperature upon arrival was 108.4 degrees, far beyond what the human body can take.

Maria’s heart stopped six times in the next two days before she passed away on Friday.

Doctors said if emergency medical help had been summoned or she had been taken to the hospital sooner, she might have survived.

The authorities are considering whether to pursue criminal charges against Vasquez Jimenez’s employer, who were issued three citations in 2006 for exposing workers to heat stroke, failing to train workers on heat stress prevention and not installing toilets at the work site.

 

[Jennifer123]

if you enjoy the benefits of what America has now, the least expensive, best quality, most varied food available in the world, you had better pray on your hands and knees that nobody passes immigration reform, or enforces the laws already on the books. Price of poultry, any meat processed in a packing house (95% of what is consumed), produce fresh, frozen and canned will skyrocket if “they” are not allowed to work these jobs for substandard pay in appalling working conditions.

I don’t believe this to be true. The market would regulate and we would be back to the time before we relied on slave labor for goods and services. There obviously would be benefits as well for the illegals and US society which would balance out this short-term doomsday scenario.

Don’t make the mistake of ignoring, again, the severe drawbacks illegal immigration has on our society and economy. The effect on our middle class is great,and IMHO, not just.

Is your cheap item worth the slave labor it took to produce it? Are you comfortable with condoning this exploitation? Because I think that is what we are doing when we pretend to take the high road by excusing illegal activity at the cost of everything else.

Of course the Church,and us Christians, should be helping those who need it regardless of status. But we must insist on fair and just solutions, illegal immigration puts so many innocent people at risk.