Fr. McBrien ??

  • Thread starter Thread starter infoguy
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
40.png
otm:
You are making an assumption that Catholic authorities are giving him this pulpit. Actually, it is not Catholic authorities, it is the editors of the papers who are giving him that platform…
Click to expand...
According to:
the-tidings.com/about/index.htm
“The Tidings is the weekly newspaper of the Los Angeles Archdiocese. The Los Angeles Archdiocese covers Los Angeles, Ventura and Santa Barbara Counties in the state of California. A total of four million Catholics reside in the area, making the Los Angeles Archdiocese the largest archdiocese in the United States. Begun in 1895, The Tidings is the only weekly Catholic newspaper in Southern California, and is the oldest continuously published Catholic newspaper on the West Coast of America.”
Is it somewhat curious that the only weekly Catholic newspaper in Southern California, which is the weekly newspaper of the Los Angeles Catholic Archdiocese, would carry a weekly syndicated column for almost forty years?, from someone who is “not even a part of the Church”, who is excommunicated (by himself), who “does not accept, nor teach Catholic theology”, who is a “a theological fraud”, and who is “lacking any Catholic theological credentials”.
 
40.png
Ghosty:
. So what if he’s published in some “Catholic” periodicals?
Click to expand...
I noticed that you put “Catholic” in quotation marks, when referring to periodicals that carry Father McBrien: Do you say that the Tidings is not what they advertise it to be?

the-tidings.com/about/index.htm

“The Tidings is the weekly newspaper of the Los Angeles Archdiocese. The Los Angeles Archdiocese covers Los Angeles, Ventura and Santa Barbara Counties in the state of California. A total of four million Catholics reside in the area, making the Los Angeles Archdiocese the largest archdiocese in the United States. Begun in 1895, The Tidings is the only weekly Catholic newspaper in Southern California, and is the oldest continuously published Catholic newspaper on the West Coast of America.”

Is it somewhat curious that the only weekly Catholic newspaper in Southern California, which is the weekly newspaper of the Los Angeles Catholic Archdiocese, would carry a weekly syndicated column for almost forty years?, from someone who is “not even a part of the Church”, who is excommunicated (by himself), who “does not accept, nor teach Catholic theology”, who is a “a theological fraud”, and who is “lacking any Catholic theological credentials”.

But is the Tidings a Catholic newspaper or a “Catholic” newspaper?
 
Is it somewhat curious that the only weekly Catholic newspaper in Southern California, which is the weekly newspaper of the Los Angeles Catholic Archdiocese, would carry a weekly syndicated column for almost forty years?, from someone who is “not even a part of the Church”, who is excommunicated (by himself), who “does not accept, nor teach Catholic theology”, who is a “a theological fraud”, and who is “lacking any Catholic theological credentials”.
Click to expand...
What is so suprising that a self-proclaimed Catholic newspaper would print articles by a heretic? That is nothing new at all. I put Catholic in quotation marks because for something to be truly Catholic, it must proclaim the truth of the Magisterium, not simply be called Catholic.

I’m sure you’ve heard the expression CINO; it applies to publications as well as people. That being said, I know nothing about this particular newspaper other than what you’ve said here. I personally wouldn’t read a newspaper that endorsed any heretical views of McBrien’s, but I don’t know if he prints his heresies in those articles given to that newspaper.
 
40.png
stanley123:
Why is he the winner of the John Courtney Murray Award for outstanding and distinguished achievement in theology?
Click to expand...
…Because the John Courtney Murray Award is frequently given to near-heretics. Furthermore, he ran the organization that hands out the prize just two years before winning it himself. How convenient!

Take a look at the list of past winners of the JCM award:
jcu.edu/ctsa/RECIPIENTS_OF_JCM_AWARD.pdf
It reads like the roll call lists at America Magazine’s and National Catholic Reporter editorial staff meetings!

(Google the names of some of the winners…I am not joking. Many of them write for America.)

I do not want to have the sort of credentials that he has, but thanks anyway…
 
40.png
stanley123:
Is it somewhat curious that the only weekly Catholic newspaper in Southern California, which is the weekly newspaper of the Los Angeles Catholic Archdiocese, would carry a weekly syndicated column for almost forty years?, from someone who is “not even a part of the Church”, who is excommunicated (by himself), who “does not accept, nor teach Catholic theology”, who is a “a theological fraud”, and who is “lacking any Catholic theological credentials”.
Click to expand...
Actually what is curious is that you presume that over its 40 year span the paper had McBrien running his column in it.

As I recollect his column began appearing there sometime in the 90’s as part of the “we have to offer some progressive controversy” for high readership themes.
 
I accidently picked up his book, Catholism at the library without knowing who he was. I was appalled as I was browsing through the book and thought to myself that this person was a very disgruntled catholic. I immediately put it back. I believe the Holy Spirit was moving me away from that stuff. Thank you, Jesus and the Holy Spirt.
 
40.png
HagiaSophia:
As I recollect his column began appearing there sometime in the 90’s as part of the “we have to offer some progressive controversy” for high readership themes.
Click to expand...
Thank you very kindly for this correction. I put a question mark after the forty years, because I didn’t know how long the syndicated column actually ran in the LA Tidings. However, if you would kindly go to:
nd.edu/~theo/faculty/mcbrien.html
you would see that “He has written a syndicated weekly theology column for the Catholic press since 1966…”, which would then be 40 years in 2006 (but as you have pointed out, it does not say the Tidings).
 
If you click on the link, you’ll notice that McBrien only wears his clerics when he’s in front of the camera questioning official Church teachings. At any other point, it’s really not that important to him.
 
40.png
stanley123:
If Father McBrien is a heretic, why has he been writing a syndicated weekly theology column for the Catholic press since 1966. Why is he the winner of the John Courtney Murray Award for outstanding and distinguished achievement in theology? Every week, his column apperas in certain Catholic newspapers, including the LA Archdiocese Catholic newspaper The Tidings. If he is a heretic as you say he is, why do the Catholic authorities promote him and provide him with a pulpit from the newspaper each and every week of the year, for almost 40 years?
Click to expand...
Stanley123,
The fact that he appears in the LA Archdiocese newspaper, “The Tidings” says it all. Progressive (Liberal) Catholics tend to find shelter together.
 
40.png
stanley123:
Thank you very kindly for this correction. I put a question mark after the forty years, because I didn’t know how long the syndicated column actually ran in the LA Tidings. However, if you would kindly go to:
nd.edu/~theo/faculty/mcbrien.html
you would see that “He has written a syndicated weekly theology column for the Catholic press since 1966…”, which would then be 40 years in 2006 (but as you have pointed out, it does not say the Tidings).
Click to expand...
Stanley,
Magazines and newspapers, even Catholic ones, even diocesan ones (I know this from personal experience), come in all ranges of pilosophical outlook.
Instead of focusing on the FACT that McBrien has been published in magazines and newspapers, why don’t you read the CONTENT of what he has written?
His book Catholocism has been disapporoved for use in teaching by the Vatifcan.
Newspaper and magazine editorial boards are not determiners of agreement with Magesterial teaching of the writers they accept. Some of them would rather the writers provide anti-Magesterial material for publication.
It seems the consensus of posters to this thread that you are either defending McBrien simply because he’s written lots of stuff, or that you are of a mind with him and this is your best argument.
You have been provided with links to heretical statements he has written. Have you read them?
I’m just trying to understand your intransigence, here. I don’t believe I’m alone in wondering why you keep defending the man with the same arguments when he’s so obviously wrong. :cool:
 
40.png
stanley123:
According to:
the-tidings.com/about/index.htm
“The Tidings is the weekly newspaper of the Los Angeles Archdiocese. The Los Angeles Archdiocese covers Los Angeles, Ventura and Santa Barbara Counties in the state of California. A total of four million Catholics reside in the area, making the Los Angeles Archdiocese the largest archdiocese in the United States. Begun in 1895, The Tidings is the only weekly Catholic newspaper in Southern California, and is the oldest continuously published Catholic newspaper on the West Coast of America.”
Is it somewhat curious that the only weekly Catholic newspaper in Southern California, which is the weekly newspaper of the Los Angeles Catholic Archdiocese, would carry a weekly syndicated column for almost forty years?, from someone who is “not even a part of the Church”, who is excommunicated (by himself), who “does not accept, nor teach Catholic theology”, who is a “a theological fraud”, and who is “lacking any Catholic theological credentials”.
Click to expand...
If you are truly curious, then I would suggest that you may be a bit naieve. Within the Catholic Church we have people who feel and state that Vatican 2 was heretical, to people on the other end of the spectrum who openly reject doctrinal issues. The Church doesn’t go around excommunicating everyone who disagrees with the Church, even on major Church teachings. In fact, the Church doesn’t excommunicate hardly anyone (exception being taken for those parts of the code, eg dealing with abortion, in shich excommunication is automatic).

However, I don’t think you are naieve. Therefore, I assume you are arguing that because various papers carry McBrien as a cloumnist, that proves that McBrien is orthodox.

If that is your argument, then truthfully, it is not worth responding to.

It would seem that there is some issue afloat with you, but what it is I cannot work out. You talk about McBrien’s qualifications as if that made a great deal of difference to you in evaluating his positions; and at the same time you talk about, in another thread, a woman who takes on the annulment process, and her only qualification seems to be that she is married about 40 years. Somehow I feel that qualifications is not the substance of the issue.

If McBrien is writing as a sociologist for the news columns, then he should be judged as a socialogist, not as a theologian; they are two entirely different disciplines. Since his column doesn’t show in our Archdiocesan newspaper, I can’t judge. If he is writing as a theologian, he has celarly indicated that he does not feel bound by the Magisterium.

So, if a Catholic newspaper carries his column as a sociological commentary, they are perfectly free to do so, as that has no particular doctrinal issues. And that would say nothing in particular about the paper itself; it would not indicate that the paper was liberal, or conservative, or moderate in terms of Church theology.

If they carried it as and for theological commentary, then it would seem that the paper considered itself avant garde; and that some newspapers hold themselves out as Catholic and avant garde should be a surprise to no one.
 
40.png
Strider:
I’m just trying to understand your intransigence, here. I don’t believe I’m alone in wondering why you keep defending the man with the same arguments when he’s so obviously wrong. :cool:
Click to expand...
Actually, I am not defending anyone. I am just relating the fact that the opposition of the official Church to Father McBrien, does not seem to be that serious. The opposition from the committee of the NCCB, that he is receiving is quite light. For example, a poster on this board has described Father McBrien as being someone who is “not even a part of the Church”, who is excommunicated (by himself), who “does not accept, nor teach Catholic theology”, who is a “a theological fraud”, and who is “lacking any Catholic theological credentials”. Whereas I don’t see that type of language being used officially. For example, the same poster referred to an article at:
catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=5286
Review of Father McBrien’s Catholicism book by a committee of the NCCB. The words “shortcomings”, “difficulties,” are used in the article to apply to the book. Also, according to the article:
“The central problem is the fact that the intended audience of the book is those who are just beginning to study theology. The book requires the reader to find his or her own way through what is sometimes a bewildering number and variety of positions. There is a difference between respecting the intelligence of the reader and making unrealistic demands upon one’s intended audience.”
In other words,according to the NCCB committee, the central problem is that the intended audience is for beginners. The central problem is not heresy, the central problem is not that Father McBrien is a theological fraud, the central problem is not that Father McBrien has excommunicated himself, the central problem is not that Father McBrien is lacking theological credentials, but the central problem is that of the intended audience. So I don;t see where this committee of the NCCB has come down all that hard on Father McBrien’s book. And if Father McBrien is teaching Catholic theology at a Catholic college, what is this supposed to mean about the following:
  1. The state of Catholic theology at the present time.
  2. The state of the Catholic college of Notre Dame.
  3. What are students being taught at Catholic colleges by the Catholic theology department?
  4. What is a non-Catholic, who might be thinking of converting to RC, supposed to think when he sees Father McBrien with all these credentials and with 40 years of writing for Catholic periodicals, and then he is proclaimed to be someone who is “not even a part of the Church”, who is excommunicated (by himself), who “does not accept, nor teach Catholic theology”, who is a “a theological fraud”, and who is “lacking any Catholic theological credentials”.
 
to Stanley123:
I’m not sure if you know this or not, but there is a large movement of dissenters within our Church, among them, Fr. McBrien. He gets quoted by the media alot because he says what they want him to say. They almost never quote true Catholics because it does not suit their agenda. Now it is no excuse for us to have this priest running around wrecklessly endangering souls, and he is by no means the only one, but your attitude sucks. How often do you pray for a solution to these problems? Do you do anything but complain and incite anger on these forums? Try to do something positive before wasting as much time spewing hate through your posts as you do. People do not change by being talked about cattily behind their backs or to their faces, they change with love and prayer. Please consider channeling your frustrations into more positive outlets.
 
*"Remind them to be under the control of the magistrate and authorities… After a first and second warning, break off contact with a heretic” *(Titus 3:1,10)

*“… a religious submission of the intellect and will must be given to a doctrine which the Supreme Pontiff or the college of bishops declares **concerning faith or morals when they exercise the authentic magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim it by definitive act; therefore, **the ****Christian faithful are to take care to avoid those things which do not agree with it. *(Canon 752, Code of Canon Law)

I believe we are obliged by Catholic Canon Law to avoid the clownish ravings of Fr. McBrien.

Furthermore, the following article by Fr. Richard P. McBrien is just one example of why *America *magazine is, in my view, counter-magisterial…

**Why America magazine is counter-magisterial - **View
 
40.png
stanley123:
Do you have the credentials to excommunicate Father Richard McBrien or to declare that he has been excommunicated? If he is a theological fraud, as you say, then why has he been writing a syndicated weekly theology column for the Catholic press since 1966. Why is he the winner of the John Courtney Murray Award for outstanding and distinguished achievement in theology? Every week, his column apperas in certain Catholic newspapers, including the LA Archdiocese Catholic newspaper The Tidings. If he is a theological fraud as you say he is, why do the Catholic authorities promote him and provide him with a pulpit from the newspaper each and every week of the year, for almost 40 years?
By the way, do you have a syndicated weekly column that appears each and every weeek in Catholic newspapers, such as the LA Tidings? If so, for how long have you had this column?
Click to expand...
Sorry, this as a supportive argument isn’t as well founded as you assert. I am not an attorney, I have no degree in Criminal Justice. But, I recognize a murder even when commited by an attorney or the Cheif of Police.
 
Fr. McBrien may have those degrees and credentials, but he is NOT in line with Church teaching. He is a dissenter of the very worst sort. He is the one that CNN trots out to comment on anything Catholic. This alone should tell you something.

His books have been lambasted by those who are in line with Church teaching.

If you are looking for a source of authentic Church teaching, McBrien is NOT it.

Mike Maturen, MDiv
40.png
stanley123:
I don’t see how anyone could say that Father McBrien is "lacking any Catholic theological credentials ".
Hasn’t Father McBrien written several books, including

Do We Need the Church? (1969), Church: the Continuing Quest (1970), The Remaking of the Church (1973); Caesar’s Coin: Religion and Politics in America (1987); Catholicism (1980; rev. ed., 1994), Lives of the Popes (1997), and Lives of the Saints (2001), and was he not the general editor of The HarperCollins Encyclopedia of Catholicism (1995). Also, was he not the president of the Catholic Theological Society of America (1973-74) and winner of its John Courtney Murray Award “for outstanding and distinguished achievement in Theology” (1976). And has he not written a syndicated weekly theology column for the Catholic press since 1966.

Also, did he not receive the S.T.D., Pontifical Gregorian University, Rome, 1967? And is he not at present the Crowley-O’Brien Professor of Theology at the University of Notre Dame.
I doubt that people who say Father McBrien is lacking Catholic credentials, have anything remotely near the credentials that Father McBrien has.
Click to expand...
 
It’s simple, really. If what a man teaches (no matter WHAT the alphaet soup after his name) is in direct contradiction to authentic Catholic theology, as found in the Catechism and the encyclicals, etc, then he is NOT a sound Catholic theologian.

Authentic Catholic teaching is easy to find. mit is in the OFFICIAL documents of the Church. Anyone with a computer or a nearby Catholic bookstore can find these things.

The problem comes when lazy Catholics who haven;t bothered to learn their faith take everything that a Priest says as Gospel truth.

McBrien has proven himself to be unreliable when it comes to Catholic theology.

Mike Maturen, MDiv

QUOTE=EA_Man]So if the the authorized credentials of Catholic Theologians are no guarantee of doctrinal stability, we are left to personally judge for ourselves what is and is not “safe” doctrine. How does this system recommend itself over what Protestants have?

Peace
 
40.png
RyanL:
The difference is that if things get “too bad”, we have one man who can infallibly say what the true course is. The captain of the Bark of Peter can quell any mutiny; he has but to speak. Additionally, we can ask the captain in any storm by which point we should sail, and the answer is guaranteed by God Himself to be true. The Scriptures are the compass, and tradition is the chart. Without the captain, the compass, and the chart, who knows if you’ll ever get home? You need all three for a safe voyage, as any sailor will tell you.

Isn’t that a smart set-up? Praise be to God!

Abandoning ship simply because a deck-hand questions the course and a handful of sailors believe him is a poor idea. McBrien is a heretic, as our Lieutenants have plainly said. So to answer your question, it’s completely different than the armada of Protestant theology. One captain, one ship, one course. One God, undivided.

God Bless,
RyanL
Click to expand...
In theory this all “sounds great” - however what advantage did this provide at the time of the Reformation?

There was a mutiny, and the “captain” could not quell the mutiny.
So the presumed advantage of the Magesterium when actually prevailed upon, failed. But, that was nothing new - similar events took place at the Great Schism, the Council of Constance, the use of the False Decretals, etc, etc, etc…

Can someone be Catholic AND a heretic? Has McBrien been defrocked? All this does is illustrate that the Catholic church is not unified at least to the extent that the designation of heretic has no practical effect within the ranks. Clearly McBrien’s superiors either from within the context of a “Catholic” university or within his Order do not consider him a heretic - else one would expect his removal.

The NCCB “ordered” McBrien to “correct deficiencies” in his work, McBrien refused - ho hum - not very inspiring.

Peace
 
40.png
EA_Man:
In theory this all “sounds great” - however what advantage did this provide at the time of the Reformation?

There was a mutiny, and the “captain” could not quell the mutiny.
So the presumed advantage of the Magesterium when actually prevailed upon, failed.
Click to expand...
The Magisterium has not failed. The Church is alive and well, and with over 1.2 billion people subscribing to this faith, you will have your average nutcase. However, the reformation is for another thread, let’s keep this discussion to “Fr.” McBrien.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top