Fr Miscamble defending atomic bomb

[Sarcelle]

After all, it saved American lives which is the important thing according to some posts in this Catholic forum.

Not just American lives.

The lives of civilians all over East Asia who continue to be brutalized and killed by the Japanese.

Why are the innocent victims of Japanese aggression often forgotten in this debate?

The victims of the atom bombs aren’t the only civilian casualties of World War 2.

 

[GKMotley]

You are correct. To quote me,

"To consider the casualty estimates of the invasion, against the casualties from the bombs, gives only a partial and parochial picture. The casualties, outside the Home Islands, for the last year of the war, monthly, throughout the theater, were ranging from 125,000 to 300,000 before the bombs were dropped. Each month the war continued, that continued- Allied, Japanese, Asian native peoples, military, civilian, young, old, POWs, lots of Chinese. The Japanese military were speaking in terms of a sacrifice of as many as 20,000,000 Japanese, in the ketsugo defense of the Home Islands (which was likely a hyperbolic statement, to be sure; the gyokusai, the shattering of the jewels). I recommend Giangreco’s HELL TO PAY (again) and Gruhl’s IMPERIAL JAPAN’S WORLD WAR II:1931-1945, on the subject of the casualties avoided by ending the war as quickly as possible, and the deaths that would continue, as it continued. See also Maddox (ed.) HIROSHIMA IN HISTORY, in general, and chaps 2-5, esp. And Newman’s TRUMAN AND THE HIROSHIMA CULT, passim, chaps 6-8, in particular.

…

Had the war continued, other deaths across the theater would have continued also. In China, in Burma, as the British opened Operation Zipper, early in September, as the Japanese eliminated the 130,000+ POWS, as they were directed to do, upon an invasion, under the “Kill All” directive, as the conventional bombing of the Home Islands continued, with a roughly 60% increase in the total of B-29s available, as the destruction of the transportation systems in the Islands increased the starvation (a death the old and the young fall to especially). And, in the ultimate bloodbath, the invasions of Kyushu and Honshu: Olympic and Coronet. The bombs saved lives throughout the theater. Including many Japanese lives. Good."

This is a consequentalist/proportionalist position. No RC need accept it, as far as it contradicts the RCC teachings.

Be parsimonious, not profligate, with death.

 

[AlNg]

Now if the allied forces would do nothing for fear of killing innocent Japanese children, the Japanese would go on happily killing and torturing innocent children all over East Asia.

It is a lie to say that " the Japanese would go on happily killing and torturing innocent children all over East Asia."
because not all Japanese were happy about that, and secondly reports indicate that Japan was ready to surrender at conditions only slightly weaker than what were eventually signed.
The brutal murder and torture of children by the atom bomb is not a moral way to end a war.

 

[vz71]

It is a lie to say that…

Unless you can prove that the poster referred to every Japanese man, woman and child, it is probably not a good idea to accuse people of lying.

 

[vz71]

reports indicate that Japan was ready to surrender at conditions only slightly weaker than what were eventually signed.

Odd that I never stumbled upon this in the history books.
How about posting a source? Perhaps list the actual conditions.

And maybe explain why the military attempted a coup to prevent the emperor from surrendering if they were so willing earlier.

 

[GKMotley]

I’ll wait here for a while, as that is forth-coming. Meanwhile, everyone go read Bix/HIROHITO AND THE MAKING OF MODERN JAPAN, pp. 492-530. History is complicated.

And I’m still only on p. 103 of GHOST MOUNTAIN BOYS. Things keep getting in the way.

 

[Sarcelle]

I meant the Imperial Japanese army.

Their stories of brutality are well known, especially in Korea, China and Southeast Asia.

If you don’t believe this then there is no point discussing this further.

 

[Canvas]

War is misery. As I have read.

Good point. There was no “happy, fun” theater of war…ever.

 

[AlNg]

Odd that I never stumbled upon this in the history books.

Yes it is very odd. However, considering the censorship which we have seen here and in other places, perhaps it is not unexpected.

The War Was Won Before Hiroshima—And the Generals Who Dropped the Bomb Knew It​

The War Was Won Before Hiroshima—And the Generals Who Dropped the Bomb Knew It

Seventy years after the bombing, will Americans face the brutal truth?

www.thenation.com

Henry H. (“Hap”) Arnold, commanding General of the Army air forces, declared in his 1949 memoirs: “It always appeared to us, atomic bomb or no atomic bomb, the Japanese were already on the verge of collapse.”
In an article that appeared on August 19, 1945, in the Chicago Tribune and the Washington Times-Herald , it was reported that on January 20, 1945, two days prior to his departure for the Yalta meeting with Stalin and Churchill, President Roosevelt received a 40-page memorandum from General Douglas MacArthur outlining surrender terms offered by the Japanese.
This memo showed that the Japanese were offering surrender terms pretty close to the ones ultimately accepted.

 

[Canvas]

The brutal murder and torture of children by the atom bomb is not a moral way to end a war.

Agreed in full. It was evil, we cannot claim anything but.

secondly reports indicate that Japan was ready to surrender at conditions only slightly weaker than what were eventually signed.

highly debatable point. Historians have tangled on this, even with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. I feel it is highly unlikely. Hirohito had to break the cabinet deadlock on August 10, 1945 after 2 atomic bombs had already been dropped, Japan was on the brink of famine and most cities had been heavily bombed, plue most of the troops overseas were trapped and the Soviet Union declared war on Japan and invaded Manchuria on August 8-9!

 

[Canvas]

Here is another left wing writer who takes a different position:

Why Did World War II End?

An interesting new revisionist theory says we didn't need to use atomic weapons on Japan.

www.motherjones.com

 

[AlNg]

highly debatable point.

I don’t think so. how do you explain the article that appeared on August 19, 1945, in the Chicago Tribune and the Washington Times-Herald ?

 

[Canvas]

Their stories of brutality are well known, especially in Korea, China and Southeast Asia.

That is why when a Japanese PM visits the Yasukuni Shrine, other Asian countries often make diplomatic protests.

 

[Canvas]

I don’t think so. how do you explain the article that appeared on August 19, 1945, in the Chicago Tribune and the Washington Times-Herald ?

There were peace factions, but they did not have control. And it was not until August 10, 1945 that Hirohito put his foot down and ended the debate in the government.

And it is very true that Japan was totally defeated militarily before Hiroshima. Everyone except the Japanese militarists could see it. But some Japanese leaders felt that they could kill enough Allied troops to get a peace treaty.

 

[GKMotley]

Mother is correct.

 

[BlueMaxx]

BlueMaxx:

My father landed at Normandy on D-Day…out of his original battalion there were only three survivors…he was 2 or three Purple Hearts and a few stars…I don’t know because he rarely, if ever spoke about it. Nobody from that generation did around here where I grew up. I know they are put away in a drawer, always there…never forgotten.

Were they killed or wounded on D-day itself, or is the number of survivors through the end of the war or even just the Normandy campaign? Some units were virtually destroyed on Omaha Beach, like the troops of A Company 116th Inf. Regt., 29th Division, that landed in the first waves (they landed in the Dog Green sector that is the setting in Saving Private Ryan). Some troops, like those in the 4th Division that landed on Utah Beach did not face heavy resistance on the beach itself, but were undoubtedly ground down in the heavy fighting in the Normandy countryside in the weeks after they landed.

Post war numbers…from the initial landing to the ending…I could not tell you how many died where…as I said, this was never discussed. What I wrote is just a few pieces of information I remember over hearing as a child.
My mom, now almost 92 was talking with me and my son about it not too long ago.
She said Bud never told her anything…that he never opened up about it. His brother Merle said Buddy came home a hard and different man…it scarred him.

Mom said he kept in touch with them for awhile after the war…but time marches on…

His best friend from childhood became my Godfather (married mom’s sister) and Howard was part of Pattons Ghost Platoon…another very interesting aside to the war.

Dad did tell me once that they saw Patton…and he gave them a talk…what dad remembers most was his pearl handled pistols…they all loved Patton and would have done anything he asked.

 

[GKMotley]

It’s behind a pay wall. But I know what it is. It’s about Walter Trohan. And it’s unmitigated bushwa.

Amateurs turn it up every now and then, and you are welcome to it. The only advocates of it are one or two raving loonies from the revisionist fringes, and it’s popular at the Institute for Historical Review. You may be familiar with the IHR.

Try finding any mention of it in any mainstream, orthodox or even respectable revisionist writings, memoirs of the supposed principals, or anything similar.

For this I’m not reading GHOST MOUNTAIN BOYS? Nerts.

 

[BlueMaxx]

Nihilo:

the bombs were the best option, and they did work.

Yes. The atomic bombs killed a lot of innocent children and other civilians. I suppose you could always end a war quickly by murdering as many innocent children as needed.

Ask some Chinese from Nanking about the Japanese take on this…

Or better yet, educate yourself and read the Rape of Nanking.

The Japanese just didn’t up and decide to bomb Pearl Harbor one day…they were on a rampage long before that.

 

[GKMotley]

Yep. Reading history helps. Maybe, for light reading, A PLAGUE UPON HUMANITY/Barenblatt.

 

[BlueMaxx]

Reading does help…also speaking with the folks who were actually there can really bring to life the reality…