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planter654
Guest
I meant sipping not spitting sorry.
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stmaria
Guest
All of you want to attack Father Gruner because he is an easy target. I do not follow Father Gruner, I follow the facts.My side hurts!
So you would follow a priest that outright disobedient to his bishop and Rome. See that just is wrong.
In 1942 Pius XII also Consecrated** the world to Our Lady and it was invalid **because he did not do so in union with all of the Bishops on one special nor did he mention specifically “ Russia”
In 1952 Pius XII consecrated the **Russian people **to Our Lady and again it was invalid.
*Apostolic Letter Carissimis Russiae Populis *(1952)
On the Immaculate Heart and the People of Russia
Pius XII
ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/consecra.htm#Pius%20XII,%201952
“In order that Our and your prayers be more readily answered, and to give you an especial attestation of Our particular affection, therefore, just as not many years ago We consecrated the entire world to the Immaculate Heart of the Virgin Mother of God, in a most special way, so now We dedicate and consecrate all the peoples of Russia to that same Immaculate Heart”
In 1946, Professor Thomas Walsh catholicauthors.com/walsh.html
Wrote a book about Fatima and said this:
"Our Lady **did not ask for the consecration of the world **to Her Immaculate Heart. What She demanded specifically was the Consecration of Russia…What Our Lady wants is that the Pope and all the bishops in the world shall consecrate Russia to Her Immaculate Heart on one special day. If this is done She will convert Russia and there will be peace Professor William Thomas Walsh’s *Our Lady of Fatima *on page 226.
How can anyone believe that Pope John Paul’s consecration was valid when he failed to do the same thing that Pope Pius XII failed to do?
You are relying statements of Sister Lucia that the consecration was made. There are also just as valid statements from Lucia that the consecration was not made.
The proof is in the facts. Russia has not converted to the One True Faith. There hasn’t even been a “moral” conversion.
There has not been peace in the world since 1984. What more proof do you need?
You don’t have any therefore you attack the messenger, Father Gruner.
Then there is the Third Secret. Is the following a lie? According to the article Pope John Paul’s words were tape recorded.
Ewtn-
ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/ENDNEAR.TXT
It is known that John Paul II has read and meditated on the text,
and has shown the letter to Ratzinger. But neither man has ever
spoken publicly about the contents -except once.
According to a report from more than 15 years ago, John Paul spoke
about the "Third Secret" to a group in Fulda, Germany, on a visit
there on November 17,1980.** His words were tape-recorded**.
What emerges is a picture rather more disturbing than the one
painted by Ratzinger last month.
In that private gathering, the Pope spoke of a “troubling”
message, of predictions of “oceans flooding entire continents,
people annihilated suddenly, by the millions, from one instant to
the next.”
“We must be well prepared,” the Pope said, “for great trials in
the near future, which can even require the sacrifice of our
lives.” And he explained why he had not made the message public:
"If a message announces that millions of people are going to die,
one doesn’t really wish to have it made public. Many want to know
it only out of curiosity, but they forget that knowledge brings
responsibility."
The full Third Secret is being held back because “knowledge brings responsibility.” We are in fact being " lied to"
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bear06
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Again, did anyone notice the title of the thread? How about you take the “Fatima not consecrated” line to a new thread?
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Brennan_Doherty
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Whether or not Russia has been consecrated or the full Third Secret has been revealed is not a matter of Faith and Morals and hence they don’t rise to the status of a dogma that must be believed.
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jrabs
Guest
See, I am not attacking Father Gruner. I am wondering why, oh why he is just not obedient. And that does not bother you? He is suspended - read post #60. That is not an attack that anyone here made…that appears to be from Rome.
You do not follow Fr. Gruner, but you listen to what he says. I guess you can argue the technicality there. You are not following the man, just his beliefs and his word in print.
As bear stated, the thread is not about Fatima - but Fr. Gruner’s standing in the church. The church has spoken firmly on that.
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stmaria
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iamrefreshed
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What you don’t follow is the church, the pope and the bishops.
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marymonde
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deleted
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
True, but I wasn’t the one who brought up the issue that the the Holy Father and Sr Lucia are mistaken in their belief that both have been done.
I brought up the fact that it doesn’t matter if either have been done as they are private revelation.
But then as has been pointed out, these do not matter one bit in answering the original question. That answer is that Fr Gruner is suspended for disobedience.
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Brennan_Doherty
Guest
Pope John Paul II has never said the consecration was done. Sr. Lucia’s typewritten letters are disputed for good reason.
Do you think the Blessed Virgin’s request to consecrate Russia was genuine? If you do, do you actually believe it really doesn’t matter whether or not it is done?
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snowfly
Guest
Yes, otherwise her heart wouldn’t triumph as she promised, and Our Lady isn’t prone to lies.
JPJ2 was asked about the Consecration of Russia at a gathering , his reply "how many times do you want me to do it " ?
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FATIMAisUrgent
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Ok one more post perhaps. I admit I never addressed this issue of obedience sufficiently. People keep making a comparison with St. Padre Pio, a situation that was hardly similar to Fr. Gruner’s. I’ll post an article by Fr. Kramer, which I think covers this issue sufficiently. I will say one thing though. The bishop of Avellino is no longer Fr. Gruner’s bishop. Fr. Gruner was told to find another bishop so he did, he found three. They were all pressured to not incardinate him, but one of them, the bishop of Hyderabad did incardinate him in 1995. Here’s the article, and please, if you’re going to refute it, at least read it and refute its points.
fatimapriest.com/contro08.html
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snowfly
Guest
Typical, he had to find three, not one, like was requested, is that disobedience ?
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FATIMAisUrgent
Guest
I might add that accusations of “gnosticism” are so ignorant and ridiculous that I shouldn’t even have to reply. All I and others are doing is using our God-given REASON by looking at facts, comparing contradictory claims in light of these facts, and coming to a reasonable conclusion. Gnosticism? Nonsense.
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FATIMAisUrgent
Guest
Excuse me, but what “teaching authority of the Church” have I or any one else here contradicted or risen above?
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bear06
Guest
Sigh! Has anyone seen either of these two necessary documents. Please note that it’s not only necessary for one bishop to say “I incardinate you”. It’s also necessary for his previous one to say “I excardinate you”.
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Brennan_Doherty
Guest
Where and when? Do you have a source?
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stmaria
Guest
I do follow them in matters of dogma. The consecration of Russia in their PERSONAL opinion. Personal opinion is not dogma. It can be accepted or rejected.What you don’t follow is the church, the pope and the bishops.
Pope Pius X forbade women in the choir and the piano in Church. Why aren’t you obeying him? Could it be that it was his personal opinion and therfore not binding?
It is not wrong to disagree with the Church as to whether or not the Consecration was made or that the full Third Secret has been revealed.
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Anonymous2
Guest
There are several serious mistakes being bandied about as being relevant to this question when, in truth, they are not:
- Private revelation and Church teaching authority; in no way does the Vatican’s attempted June 2000 interpretation of Fatima represent an “authoritative teaching pronouncement” of the Church. Indeed, Cardinal Ratzinger seemed to indicate that the events of Fatima and the partially released Third Secret “belong to the past.” Given Russia’s non-conversion and their current status (look into a 1994 event involving a Norwegian missile going into Russian territory and the Russians reverting to Cold War times nuclear preparedness to hit the U.S.) they will almost certainly play decisive role in the FUTURE of geo-political happenings.
- I am not a “Grunerite.” I have no affiliation with Fr. Nicholas Gruner, do not receive mailings from him, have never spoken, contacted, or otherwise communicated with him in any way, and am mostly ignorant of the canonical details surrounding his situation. Hence, the attempt to link genuine interest and concern for the events of Fatima with “supporting a disobedient priest” is in vain.
- The charge is made that questioning Vatican presentation of the facts somehow is to make Pope John Paul, Cardinal Ratzinger, Sister Lucia, or others to be “liars.” The response, quite simply, is No, it does not. Consider 2 episodes:
a. Cardinal Bertone has a foreword to his book, in which he severely attacks Catholic journalist Antonio Socci. The foreword is written by Pope Benedict and praises the cardinal’s efforts at speaking of the “authentic words” of the Third Secret of Fatima. As I saw somehow put it when examining this phrase, Cardinal Ratzinger picks his words very carefully. It is clear that some or many in the Vatican believe that the words “In Portugal the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved…” are words from Sr. Lucia herself and not from the Blessed Virgin. You will note that the “official” version of June 26, 2000 has NOT ONE word from the Blessed Virgin AT ALL. Others have let this slip with similar admissions; one official, I recall, said “It is difficult to know when it is Sr. Lucia speaking and when the Blessed Virgin is speaking.” Pope Benedict’s use of the word “authentic” suggests that he does not think “In Portugal…” is an “authentic” part of the Third Secret.
b. There was also a press conference in which Cardinal Bertone admitted that he thought “In Portugal” belonged to the Second, not the Third, Secret. Hopefully someone can find it, but I distinctly remember reading this. This of course, allows them to say, quite truthfully, that “the Third Secret has been completely revealed.”
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