Fr. Nicholas Gruner

[LilyM]

I provided the link to his official response - the official letter that was hand delivered to the Pope. If he spent his time responding to every lie posted on the internet, he would not have time to perform his priestly work, including running an orphanage.

Would that we had more Priests like the saintly Fr. Gruner.

Anyone can run an orphanage, Mother Teresa ran many, and his priestly status has no relevance to that work. If that’s the only sort of thing he wants to do, fine.

But if he is going to insist on performing PRIESTLY work, as you say, saying Mass and administering the sacraments, then he’d better darn well cough up the proof that he has the relevant faculties to do it. And his documentation doesn’t cut it.

If it was hand-delivered to the Pope, you can be sure that he and/or those in the Vatican with relevant authority to decide the matter looked at it. Guess what - they (the Apostolic Signatura) found against him anyway. It would seem, absent proof of corruption, that there was legitimate evidence against as well as for him and the evidence against was stronger.

That he singularly fails to demonstrate that he currently has priestly faculties - as opposed to that he HAD them 12 years ago - indicates a lack of respect both for the Church authority outside of which his priestly faculties are largely inoperative, and for the sacraments which he administers, since he may well be doing so invalidly and sacreligiously.

 

[stmaria]

Your defense of Father Gruner has been very well presented.

I am one that believes the Consecration of Russia by the Holy Father in union with the all the bishops of the world, in a full public act by all, has not been fulfilled. We see everyday Russia is pushing the envelope, signs if you will, that there is no period of peace and that the country has not converted to the Holy Catholic Church. Just today Russia is on the front page of the AP :

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071217/ap_on_re_mi_ea/russia_iran

This is Israel’s response:

israelnationalnews.com/Ne…sh.aspx/138196

The problems with Russia are increasing by the day, no, by the hour, and no one is praying for Our Lady’s request to be answered because they believe a line or two from Bertone’s office that all is well. I pray everyday for Father Gruner’s intentions, whether he is in good standing with Rome or not. I believe he has weighed the evidence, observed the fruits since the apparition, and came to a conclusion that doesn’t seem so out of sorts. He desperately wants peace and conversion, not for himself, but for the greater glory of Almighty God.

Of course, when Russia proves to be the scourge of the world, as Our Lady predicted, THAT may well prove to be the sign all need to see to believe. It will be far too late for most.

FINALLY!!! I have been reading all of the responses waiting for someone to get the the heart of the matter. If the Consecration took place WHY HASN"T RUSSIA CONVERTED TO THE CATHOLIC FAITH as Our Lady promised.
Why hasn’t there been A PERIOD OF PEACE as Our Lady promised and as marymonde has posted the proof. And while I am here, what about this regarding the Third Secret. If it has been fully revealed as the Vatican claims why did Pope John Paul say this.
Ewtn-
ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/ENDNEAR.TXT

"It is known that John Paul II has read and meditated on the text,
and has shown the letter to Ratzinger. But neither man has ever
spoken publicly about the contents -except once.

According to a report from more than 15 years ago, John Paul spoke
about the “Third Secret” to a group in Fulda, Germany, on a visit
there on November 17,1980.** His words were tape-recorded**.

What emerges is a picture rather more disturbing than the one
painted by Ratzinger last month.

In that private gathering, the Pope spoke of a “troubling”
message, of predictions of "oceans flooding entire continents,
people annihilated suddenly, by the millions, from one instant to
the next."
“We must be well prepared,” the Pope said, “for great trials in
the near future, which can even require the sacrifice of our
lives.” And he explained why he had not made the message public: "If a message announces that millions of people are going to die,
one doesn’t really wish to have it made public. Many want to know
it only out of curiosity, but they forget that knowledge brings
responsibility."

This is a contradiciton of the Third Secret that has been revealed. And his quote of “knowledge brings responsibility” shows why it is being withheld.

 

[LilyM]

FINALLY!!! I have been reading all of the responses waiting for someone to get the the heart of the matter. If the Consecration took place WHY HASN"T RUSSIA CONVERTED TO THE CATHOLIC FAITH as Our Lady promised.
Why hasn’t there been A PERIOD OF PEACE as Our Lady promised and as marymonde has posted the proof. And while I am here, what about this regarding the Third Secret. If it has been fully revealed as the Vatican claims why did Pope John Paul say this.
Ewtn-
ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/ENDNEAR.TXT

"It is known that John Paul II has read and meditated on the text,
and has shown the letter to Ratzinger. But neither man has ever
spoken publicly about the contents -except once.

According to a report from more than 15 years ago, John Paul spoke
about the “Third Secret” to a group in Fulda, Germany, on a visit
there on November 17,1980.** His words were tape-recorded**.

What emerges is a picture rather more disturbing than the one
painted by Ratzinger last month.

In that private gathering, the Pope spoke of a “troubling”
message, of predictions of "**oceans flooding entire continents, **
**people annihilated suddenly, by the millions, from one instant to **
the next."
“We must be well prepared,” the Pope said, “for great trials in
the near future, which can even require the sacrifice of our
lives.” **And he explained why he had not made the message public: "If a message announces that millions of people are going to die,
one doesn’t really wish to have it made public. Many want to know
it only out of curiosity, but they forget that knowledge brings **
responsibility."

This is a contradiciton of the Third Secret that has been revealed. And his quote of “knowledge brings responsibility” shows why it is being withheld.

Why hasn’t Russia converted? How negligent of Our Lady to fail to convert it when she so clearly promised that it would happen within 25 years or less of the Consecration … Would you kindly quote me the passage where she said so?

Gimme a break - how many thousands of years did God wait after Adam to make His covenant with Abraham? How many more thousands of years did Israel wait after Abraham for the Messiah (Jesus)? Haven’t we waited 2,000 years for Him to come again as He promised He would?

God does such things in His own good (and often long) time.

As for the comment of John Paul’s - if it was made in 1980 then was even before the assassination attempt which the Third Secret foretold, no?

You think JP2 and B16 just mighta kinda sorta changed their minds about it after that event? Hence later saying that the prediction of the assassination attempt WAS the crux of the Third Secret?

 

[Jaypeeto4]

Although I accept Father Gruner’s suspension as
being canonically binding and official,
I have to say that the REASONS given in answer #15
(post #15 in this long thread) is the most correct answer.

It is simple fact that in 1984 itself, Sister Lucy told people that this consecration (March 1984) of the world to Mary’s immaculate heart was not the Consecration of Russia that heaven was awaiting. Then several years LATER, according to certain sources, Sister Lucy starts saying that the 1984 consecration WAS valid.

I don’t wish to get into a debate about whether the 1984 consecration was accepted by Heaven or not. That is for Heaven to decide. But Father Gruner IS being unjustly persecuted.
What would it HURT if Pope Benedict were to make a consecration of Russia, by name, to Mary’s immaculate heart?
It would HURT nothing spiritually, so why not?

Still, Father Gruner saying that his suspension is not legal
is really a stretch. Unjust? I agree. But legal? Unfortunately,
yes it is legally binding.

Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

 

[Sure]

You obviously did not read the link. Before you publicly calumniate a Priest, don’t you think it would be wise to read the other side of the story? The link I provided was not some rumer from a website (which is what you are used to reading). It wa an official communication between Fr. Gruner and the Pope himself. It tells the entire story.

You and the others who have seen fit to calumniate a Priest of God need to read that link while there is still time to confession and absolution.

Once again, here is the link. I am reading it myself right now:

fatimacrusader.com/cr65/cr65pg53.asp

Yes, it is a very nice letter. However, until Fr. Gruner receives a response lifting his suspension, he should act as a suspended priest and refrain from offering Mass. He doesn’t which says an awful lot about his character.

And maybe I’m just naive but I bet he’d get a much better response if his letter included, “Although it is clear that my suspension is not warranted, I will refrain from celebrating the sacraments out of obedience to the laws of the church until such time as I am vindicated.”…Could be a very powerful PR move.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

As for the comment of John Paul’s - if it was made in 1980 then was even before the assassination attempt which the Third Secret foretold, no?

You think JP2 and B16 just mighta kinda sorta changed their minds about it after that event? Hence later saying that the prediction of the assassination attempt WAS the crux of the Third Secret?

This is what Cardinal Ratzinger said AFTER the event. The following is what he said during an interview in 1984…

Question: “Cardinal Ratzinger, have you read what is called the Third Secret of Fatima: i.e., the one that Sister Lucia had sent to Pope John XXIII and which the latter did not wish to make known and consigned to the Vatican archives?”

Reply: “Yes, I have read it,”

Question: “Why has it not been revealed?”

Reply: “Because, according to the judgement of the Popes, it adds nothing to what a Christian must know concerning what derives from Revelation: i.e., a radical call for conversion; the absolute importance of history; the dangers threatening the faith and the life of the Christian, and therefore of the world. And then the importance of the ‘novissimi’ (the last events at the end of time). If it is not made public - at least for the time being - it is in order to prevent religious prophecy from being mistaken for a quest for the sensational. But the things contained in this ‘Third Secret’ correspond to what has been announced in Scripture and has been said again and again in many other Marian apparitions, first of all that of Fatima in what is already known of what its message contains. Conversion and penitence are the essential conditions for ‘salvation’.” END

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Yes, it is a very nice letter. However, until Fr. Gruner receives a response lifting his suspension, he should act as a suspended priest and refrain from offering Mass. He doesn’t which says an awful lot about his character.

And maybe I’m just naive but I bet he’d get a much better response if his letter included, “Although it is clear that my suspension is not warranted, I will refrain from celebrating the sacraments out of obedience to the laws of the church until such time as I am vindicated.”…Could be a very powerful PR move.

It should be clear by now that Fr. Gruner is not interested in public relations. He goes about his business quietly, while he is calumniate and persecuted by those who want the message of Fatima to go away, as well as a lot of usefull idiots with websites.

 

[Sure]

It should be clear by now that Fr. Gruner is not interested in public relations. He goes about his business quietly, while he is calumniate and persecuted by those who want the message of Fatima to go away, as well as a lot of usefull idiots with websites.

It’s unfortunate that he is not equally concerned with being united with the Catholic Church and being subordinate to the Supreme Pontiff. Fr. Gruner is not Fatima. The message of Fatima does not exist because of Fr. Gruner’s disobedience and scandal, it exists in spite of it. And you should stop throwing around the word “calumny”. There is nothing calumnious about stating the objective fact that he is: 1.Suspended and 2. Continues to celebrate the sacraments despite his suspension.

As for your last comment, I sincerely hope that you are not referring to anyone here as an “idiot.” Oh and I’m really curious who wants Fatima to go away? I have never met anyone or heard of anyone who desires such a thing.

 

[MrS]

And the fact that Sr Lucia said the consecration was accepted by heaven means what then?

I ?

Why would she say otherwise. Of course the consecration was accepted in heaven. And if Benedict consecrated the world today, that consecration would be accepted in heaven… but it is NOT the consecration specifically asked for my Mary.

As for me…I beleive JPII. He never said he performed the consecration as the Blessed Mother directed.

.

 

[LilyM]

This is what Cardinal Ratzinger said AFTER the event. The following is what he said during an interview in 1984…

Question: “Cardinal Ratzinger, have you read what is called the Third Secret of Fatima: i.e., the one that Sister Lucia had sent to Pope John XXIII and which the latter did not wish to make known and consigned to the Vatican archives?”

Reply: “Yes, I have read it,”

Question: “Why has it not been revealed?”

Reply: “Because, according to the judgement of the Popes, it adds nothing to what a Christian must know concerning what derives from Revelation: i.e., a radical call for conversion; the absolute importance of history; the dangers threatening the faith and the life of the Christian, and therefore of the world. And then the importance of the ‘novissimi’ (the last events at the end of time). If it is not made public - at least for the time being - it is in order to prevent religious prophecy from being mistaken for a quest for the sensational. But the things contained in this ‘Third Secret’ correspond to what has been announced in Scripture and has been said again and again in many other Marian apparitions, first of all that of Fatima in what is already known of what its message contains. Conversion and penitence are the essential conditions for ‘salvation’.” END

And?? Given all the speculation that has continued even AFTER revelation of the Third Secret I don’t blame the Popes for being reluctant. I don’t think anything that could possibly be revealed would be enough to satisfy some, who seem to want nothing less than a date for the end of the world, for crying out loud.

It doesn’t mean that it hasn’t been revealed in its entirety though.

 

[Sure]

And?? Given all the speculation that has continued even AFTER revelation of the Third Secret I don’t blame the Popes for being reluctant. I don’t think anything that could possibly be revealed would be enough to satisfy some, who seem to want nothing less than a date for the end of the world, for crying out loud.

It doesn’t mean that it hasn’t been revealed in its entirety though.

People love a conspiracy!

I mean, either we can believe that the statements by Pope John Paul II, Cardinal Ratzinger and Cardinal Bertone are true and accurate…or…we can believe that there is a secret conspiracy and multiple copies of letters and secret messages and. Come on, which one is more fun!

I hear that Disney has already signed for…

“National Treasure 3: The Third Secret.”
Nicholas Cage battles evil secret mason cardinal’s who are plotting to stymie the consecration of Russia, but with the help of a rogue band of internet junkies and a dissident priest, they discover the truth and force the Pope to consecrate Russia at gunpoint after an adrenaline infused car chase through the streets of Rome!!!

 

[stmaria]

Why hasn’t Russia converted? How negligent of Our Lady to fail to convert it when she so clearly promised that it would happen within 25 years or less of the Consecration … Would you kindly quote me the passage where she said so?

Gimme a break - how many thousands of years did God wait after Adam to make His covenant with Abraham? How many more thousands of years did Israel wait after Abraham for the Messiah (Jesus)? Haven’t we waited 2,000 years for Him to come again as He promised He would?

 

[LilyM]

I am glad that you agree that Russia hasn’t converted to the Catholic faith and I am sure that you will agree that there hasn’t been peace since 1984. Her prediction of World War II didn’t take a thousand years. Why would the conversion take a thousand years?

Assassination ATTEMPT? The Third secret said that the Pope would be killed.

 

[FATIMAisUrgent]

Why do you think that is? Because it has no merit perhaps?

I believe in the Magesterium of the ONE HOLYCATHOLIC APOSTALIC CHURCH. The one that Jesus promised to be with till the end of time and keep the gates of Hell from prevailing against her. For this reason I don’t have to examine every piece of evidence thrown out there, reinvent the wheel, so to speak, as the Protestants, and apparently you and your faction do.

You are putting Father Gruner above the Pope and Church Authority. You are in schism with Rome.

You may not realize this, but your statement is filled with implicit heresy. You seem to be attributing the dogma of papal infalliability (defined at Vatican I council) to the dealings and statements of Cardinals working in the Vatican. Do you truly believe that a cardinal in the Vatican or even a pope could never do wrong or make a mistake??? You are assuming Fr. Gruner is guilty without even looking at the whole story.

 

[bluerose]

I hear that Disney has already signed for…

“National Treasure 3: The Third Secret.”
Nicholas Cage battles evil secret mason cardinal’s who are plotting to stymie the consecration of Russia, but with the help of a rogue band of internet junkies and a dissident priest, they discover the truth and force the Pope to consecrate Russia at gunpoint after an adrenaline infused car chase through the streets of Rome!!!

Bud MacFarlane beat you to it. Read “Pierced by a Sword”.

It saddens me to think how happy Satan must be to have Fatima dividing the Church.

As for me, “where Peter is, there is the Church”, so I submit to the authority of Rome.

 

[FATIMAisUrgent]

How is he able to write about an unreleased document?

He wrote about all the EYEWITNESS TESTIMONY of those who did read it!!! Most of his work was based on that of Fr. Alonso who was the official Fatima archivist for years. Why don’t you just go to the link and read about it yourself? It’s a long book, and you could just get the abridged version from Fr. Gruner’s website but since many on this thread have expressed there disdain and mistrust of Fr. Gruner, I was providing a more direct source.

 

[FATIMAisUrgent]

Yes, it is a very nice letter. However, until Fr. Gruner receives a response lifting his suspension, he should act as a suspended priest and refrain from offering Mass. He doesn’t which says an awful lot about his character.

And maybe I’m just naive but I bet he’d get a much better response if his letter included, “Although it is clear that my suspension is not warranted, I will refrain from celebrating the sacraments out of obedience to the laws of the church until such time as I am vindicated.”…Could be a very powerful PR move.

What nonsense!!! A priest should not have to submit to a “suspention” if there is no offense that he has commited. No one can be penalized by Canon Law if one has not commited any offense. So are you telling me that if your priest or the bishop of your diocese accused you of cooperating with an abortion and forbid you to recieve communion until you repented of your sin, you would say, “oh well, I have to be obedient to my superiors, since I didn’t commit this sin, I can’t lie and make a false confession, but on the other hand, I can’t challenge their authority by going on with my life and recieving Holy Communion, so I will just have to go without Holy Communion until my authorities lift my charge.” ABSOLUTE NONSENSE!!! Obedience has limits people. Granted that was an extreme example but that seems to be where this “obedience” line of thinking takes us, no?

 

[stmaria]

People love a conspiracy!

I
I hear that Disney has already signed for…

“National Treasure 3: The Third Secret.”
Nicholas Cage battles** evil secret mason **cardinal’s who are plotting to stymie the consecration of Russia, but with the help of a rogue band of internet junkies and a dissident priest, they discover the truth and force the Pope to consecrate Russia at gunpoint after an adrenaline infused car chase through the streets of Rome!!!

You’ re right. That crazy conspiracy nut Pope Leo XIII had quite an imagination.

*HUMANUM GENUS *papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13human.htm

ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII ON FREEMASONRY APRIL 20, 1884
2…. At this period, however, the partisans of evil seems to be combining together, and to be struggling with united vehemence, led on or assisted by** that strongly organized and widespread association called the Freemasons**. No longer making any secret of their purposes, they are now boldly rising up against God Himself. **They are planning the destruction of holy Church publicly and openly, and this with the set purpose of utterly despoiling the nations of Christendom **
6. For as soon as the constitution and the spirit of the masonic sect were clearly discovered by manifest signs of its actions, by the investigation of its causes, by publication of its laws, and of its rites and commentaries, with the addition often of the personal testimony of those who were in the secret, this apostolic see denounced the sect of the Freemasons, and publicly declared its constitution, as contrary to law and right.

And Cardinal Ratzinger is a conspiracy nut too!

Cardinal Ratzinger “Masonic sect” is no longer explicitly named is irrelevant; **the Church’s negative judgment on Masonry remains unchanged, **because the Masonic principles are irreconcilable with the Church’s teaching (“earum principia semper iconciliabilia habita sunt cum Ecclesiae doctrina”); **Catholics who join the Masons are in the state of grave sin **and may not receive Holy Communion and (4) no local ecclesiastical authority has competence to derogate from these judgments of the Sacred Congregation.
catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?recnum=2652

1983 Canon 1374:
A person who joins an association which plots against the Church is to be punished with a just penalty; one who promotes or takes office in such an association is to be punished with an interdict.

1917 Canon 2335
Persons joining associations of the Masonic sect or any others of the same kind **which plot against the Church **and legitimate civil authorities contract ipso facto excommunication simply reserved to the Apostolic See.

Plots against the Church? Conspiracy nuts!

 

[Shoshana]

obedience is key Fatima…the key that would confirm hsi great holiness…no different than Padre Pio when told by the Vatican to sequester himself in his cell…no different than the Archbishop (who later was accused of covering priest molesting little children) accused Padre Pio of everything in the book…

He obeyed and I too would no matter the condition of my superior. Unless it was to sin…then I do not have to obey…otherwise I do have to.

 

[ac_claire]

I am tragically sorry that I will not place credence in anything from that website until the Vatican tells me I can.
I believe it is spiritually harmful as well as sinful to do otherwise.

I agree with my whole heart about the “spiritually harmful” part.
I’ve been following this thread with interest, and I really don’t want to de-rail the thread. But some of what I’m reading is truly frightening me and I feel compelled to put another perspective out there.

None of this, none of this, is doctrine…We have debate and conjecture stacked on top of more conjecture and conflicting information/opinions…And all of this is teetering on top of a private revelation. Not exactly a rock solid foundation. Yes, it’s Fatima. I know it’s approved and I honestly have great respect for the devotion to Our Lady of Fatima…

But it’s still a private revelation. I try to judge everything else in light of that fact. Lets use the reason that God gave us. We have a responsibility to do so. Someone wise once told me to never be afraid of looking for truth, because it will always lead to God. Is the God we do know likely to have orchestrated a situation where the fate of the world hinges on the precise wording of a [vague, general] consecration, ordered by an apparition, whose message is interpreted and relayed by one fallible human person [Sister Lucia]?

Does this really sound like the God we know? Everything else that Heaven has ever revealed to us re: salvation is centered around the strength and perseverence of our faith and charity, all through Christ and his Church.

Fatima may very well be a valid apparition. If it ever was, I truly believe that somewhere along the way the message has been corrupted and warped beyond recognition. I can’t see the Blessed Mother in any of this mess, and I don’t see Christ at all…

There’s a good reason why acceptance of ANY private revelation is not required for salvation. Given that, why take the risk?

I think we’re doing just fine when we place our trust in the things we know the evil one can’t corrupt and distort: the Church, the pope, the Eucharist, sacred scripture…

– a.c.