Fr. Pavone on the use of graphic images of abortion

[KarenNC]

And you cannot work in the affective realm with cognitive or psychomotor strategies.

And how does this explain “We aren’t trying to “convey a message” – that’s a cognitive stragegy” exactly?

Several posters have already given that evidence.

Well, let’s see. Example of the type of evidence given so far:

I was offered the statistic of 160,000 abortions a day. When I asked for the source and context of that number, I got “As a national prolife leader I won’t dare post something that can’t be backed up statistically. 160,000 a day is from abortion supporters statistics!” I am still waiting on any sort of meaningful source and context from the OP, so I went looking for verification.

The CDC abortion surveillance report for 2003 ( the most recent one available, put out in late 2006) showed “A total of 848,163 legal induced abortions were reported to CDC for 2003 from 49 reporting areas, representing a 0.7% decline from the 854,122 legal induced abortions reported by 49 reporting areas for 2002.”

cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5511a1.htm

Now when I divide 848,163 by 365 days in a year to get the number of abortions per day in the US per this report, I come up with 2324 abortions per day. This is not a desirable number, certainly, but quite a far cry from 160,000, even if the numbers are underreported. If I multiply 160,000 by 365, then that would mean there are 58,400,000 abortions a year.

The US Census Bureau reports that there were 61,588,000 women between the ages of 15 and 44 in the US for the year 2004 and that 3,746,000 of them gave birth. census.gov/prod/2005pubs/p20-555.pdf (haven’t found that data for 2003). Since we know that the population has grown each year, if we take the number of abortions reported in 2003 and divide them by the number of women in the 15-44 age range in 2004, we should get a reasonable estimate, even if a bit low as it will be based on a somewhat larger than actual base population, of the percentage of women who would have had to have abortions to get the 160,000 a year.

Using that data, I find it a bit difficult to believe that even the most ardent supporter of abortion stated that over 90% of all women between the ages of 15 and 44 were even pregnant, much less had an abortion, in any given year.

I have also been offered anecdotal evidence.
cuyamaca.edu/bruce.thompson/Fallacies/anecdotal.asp (my emphases added)
" There is, of course, nothing wrong with presenting representative cases to illustrate an inductive conclusion properly drawn from a fair sample. The representative case serves to put a human face on what would otherwise be just a mass of cold statistics. **However, it is the inductive argument as a whole (i.e. all those cold statistics) that justifies the conclusion. **The anecdote merely illustrates and humanizes the properly drawn conclusion.
The fallacy of Anecdotal Evidence mimics this legitimate use of illustrative story-telling. It presents us with a case that puts a human face upon a conclusion. The fallacy of Anecdotal Evidence errs, however, in using the single case in place of the properly conducted study. The fallacy implies that the anecdote is illustrating a properly drawn conclusion, when in fact it is attempting to replace the proper inductive argument altogether.

In some ways this fallacy is similar to Uncharacteristic Sample and also to Hasty Generalization. Like Uncharacteristic Sample, the sample is not adequately diverse, and so is unrepresentative of the class it is chosen to represent. Like Hasty Generalization, the sample is (usually) too small to support a general conclusion. However, I treat this as a separate fallacy in the Circularity category. The implication of an anecdote is that it is just one representative instance, and that many other instances could be cited as well. If this presumption is true (and often it isn’t), then the reasoning is neither hasty nor uncharacteristic. However, it is still circular, since the anecdote is offered as a “sample” only because it supports the desired conclusion."

If you believe that I have misrepresented the type of evidence given in this thread, please feel free to cite specific posts and I will look at it again.

 

[KarenNC]

Ok, but I would need to hear their side of the story, which doesn’t seem possible.

Why not? It’s Operation Rescue/Operation Save America, Flip Benham’s group. Their websites pretty much speak for themselves, in my opinion. “Truth Trucks” parked in residential neighborhoods and apartment complexes, in front of churches on Sunday morning, across from grocery stores and restuarants, etc.

Here’s their brochure explaining their reasoning on carrying the graphic photos
operationsaveamerica.org/cms/assets/brochures/GraphicPics.pdf

 

[vern_humphrey]

And how does this explain “We aren’t trying to “convey a message” – that’s a cognitive stragegy” exactly?

A cognitive strategy is one designed to work in the cognitive realm – such as “conveying a message.”

Since we are working in the affective realm, we must use an affective strategy. As I said, you can’t teach a psychomotor task by “sending a message.” And you can’t operate in the affective realm by “sending a message.”

 

[bmmckinney]

160,000 abortions across the world each day, about 4000 or more in the US.

Again if you or anyone else can prove in anyway except your so called “personal” experiences of children who have been traumatized for life or damaged in any way permanently from these photos please bring it now, stop with the rhetoric and provide us some tangible evidence. But you see there isn’t any, which means you are trying very hard to avoid the fact that so many babies haven’t been butchered because of these photos.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I suppose we should also criticize Mary for showing the Children at Fatima a vision of Hell.

 

[KarenNC]

A cognitive strategy is one designed to work in the cognitive realm – such as “conveying a message.”

Since we are working in the affective realm, we must use an affective strategy. As I said, you can’t teach a psychomotor task by “sending a message.” And you can’t operate in the affective realm by “sending a message.”

You are still conveying a message—communicating something to the other person–otherwise what would the point be? I am using the word “convey” as defined by Merriam Webster:
“to impart or communicate by statement, suggestion, gesture, or appearance .”

Why is it not possible to use an affective strategy that does not knowingly include young children in the audience?

 

[vern_humphrey]

You are still conveying a message—communicating something to the other person–otherwise what would the point be? I am using the word “convey” as defined by Merriam Webster:
“to impart or communicate by statement, suggestion, gesture, or appearance .”

You are simply wrong. You keep confounding the affective and the cognitive.

Why is it not possible to use an affective strategy that does not knowingly include young children in the audience?

Ah, so it’s okay to use an affective strategy – but not an effective one?

 

[KarenNC]

160,000 abortions across the world each day, about 4000 or more in the US.

Okay, we are getting a little closer to actual information. So we have some context. What is the source for 4000+ in the US or the 160,000 a day worldwide? It is about double what I can find based on CDC statistics for the US (to repeat):

"The CDC abortion surveillance report for 2003 ( the most recent one available, put out in late 2006) showed “A total of 848,163 legal induced abortions were reported to CDC for 2003 from 49 reporting areas, representing a 0.7% decline from the 854,122 legal induced abortions reported by 49 reporting areas for 2002.”

cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5511a1.htm

Now when I divide 848,163 by 365 days in a year to get the number of abortions per day in the US per this report, I come up with 2324 abortions per day. This is not a desirable number, certainly, but quite a far cry from 160,000, even if the numbers are underreported."

This also doesn’t square with guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/25s3099.html
Which gives, at the highest estimated level of 26 million and lowest of 20 million per year in 1999, 54,795 to 71,233 per day worldwide. Again, not desirable, but less than half the claimed numbers.

"This article presents current estimates of the level of induced abortion, based on a recent effort to assemble all available official statistics from countries that collect such data, as well as existing estimates of the level of induced abortion for countries that have no official statistics. We incorporate worldwide and regional estimates from the World Health Organization (WHO) of the number of unsafe abortions, which the organization defines as abortions that do not meet the legal requirements in countries where abortion is generally permitted as well as abortions in restrictive countries. (Thus, WHO’s estimates of “unsafe” procedures can be considered estimates of illegal abortions.) We combine these estimates with all available data on legal abortions to arrive at estimates of the overall number and level of induced abortion, whether safe or unsafe, legal or illegal. "

So if you could reference the source for your numbers, I would be very interested in looking at them and seeing where the difference originates.

Again if you or anyone else can prove in anyway except your so called “personal” experiences of children who have been traumatized for life or damaged in any way permanently from these photos please bring it now, stop with the rhetoric and provide us some tangible evidence.

Personal experiences are not sufficient evidence for you? Anecdotes aren’t sufficient proof for you? I am curious as to why you are asking those who disagree with you to be held to a standard higher than that to which you seem willing to hold yourself?

Sorry, bmmckinley, you are the one who is choosing to engage in activities which are diametrically opposite the societal norms of the appropriate treatment of young children in regards to exposure to graphic violence without the approval of their parents as well as the teachings of the Church (of course, I still cannot assume that you are Catholic or Christian, so that may not hold much force for you). Further you are justifying those actions by claiming that you cannot engage in any possible strategy that is even marginally effective (ie can prevent even one abortion, as I recall) if you cannot knowingly include without previous warning young children as the audience for tractor-trailer sized graphic color photographs of mutiltated and dismembered bloody corpses of babies driving around cities and roads. I think the burden of proof lies on your shoulders.

 

[KarenNC]

Ah, so it’s okay to use an affective strategy – but not an effective one?

Still waiting on something other than anecdotal evidence to show that a) it is effective at all for the target audience (however you are defining that), and more importantly to my point, b) that changing tactics enough not to knowingly include preschoolers is significantly less effective in reaching that same audience. In 35 years no-one has bothered to do any sort of actual study looking at the relative effectiveness of various methods of communication in relation to this message (either affective or cognitive )? It’s been a matter of just throwing your resources at whatever sounds good this week? Seems wasteful, counterproductive and inefficient to me, honestly.

This has never been about not using the images in any way, shape or form. I have repeatedly said that I can certainly see a use for them with the appropriate target audience and in the appropriate setting. It has been about not using them in such a way as to knowingly expose large numbers of young children to them.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Still waiting on something other than anecdotal evidence to show that a) it is effective at all for the target audience (however you are defining that), and more importantly to my point, b) that changing tactics enough not to knowingly include preschoolers is significantly less effective in reaching that same audience. In 35 years no-one has bothered to do any sort of actual study looking at the relative effectiveness of various methods of communication in relation to this message (either affective or cognitive )? It’s been a matter of just throwing your resources at whatever sounds good this week? Seems wasteful, counterproductive and inefficient to me, honestly.

How it seems to you is not the point. The people who use it say it works.

This has never been about not using the images in any way, shape or form. I have repeatedly said that I can certainly see a use for them with the appropriate target audience and in the appropriate setting. It has been about not using them in such a way as to knowingly expose large numbers of young children to them.

Do you have a track record here? Can you give us concrete examples of a different way and give us some hands-on experience to show your way works better?

 

[bmmckinney]

The following is a sample of the varied email responses which the Reproductive “Choice” Campaign receives.

“I was thinking of (having an) abortion because may children are gonna be less than 2 years apart but after reading everything and looking at the pictures i can’t do it.”

God bless and strengthen you in your efforts to make the practice of abortion (child killing) a reality in the minds of our citizenry. This barbaric and murderous activity is a blight upon our nation and is in large part responsible for the growing “death culture” we are experiencing in America…Shocking as these pictures may appear on the sides of trucks, how much more savage and ruthless is the actual abortion, the killing and dismemberment, of the defenseless child. We commend your work and support it, trusting you will not flag in the face of resistance from those who would kill for convenience."

“Your photos changed me from pro-choice to pro-life. More has got to be done to educate the public on the true horrors of abortion. Please continue to spread your word any way you can. this is truly a cause that cannot be ignored. I think it should be mandotory for every woman who is to under go this surgery to see photos like these so they to would understand exactly what is taking place.”

“I first found out about your trucks in the OC Register and I was so proud of you!!!..I just finished reading the letters people have sent you and wow! you are pushing some buttons,GOOD!! All those people that feel offended and call you names and insults will get my prayers ! May God Bless You and Please, please, please DO NOT STOP EVER!!”

 

[bmmckinney]

“Today, as I returned from lunch, we were behind two of your trucks that were followed by a police car. I was amazed. I had seen abortion pictures on-line before but seeing them in public is stunning. I visited your Website and read much of the literature offered there. I am glad that your organization supports Crisis Pregnancy Centers and other loving alternatives to abortion. Love does conquer all…These depictions are horrific and offensive, but they do have a value by grabbing our attention…I have always been a vocal opponent to abortion and thought I was doing my part by voicing my opinion and discussing it with my family and others. But seeing you trucks, and visiting your Website, made me question if I am really doing my part. I am newly resolved to provide financial and prayer support to the local Crisis Pregnancy Center to partially fulfill my responsibility towards ‘the least of these’.”

“I just heard of your web site through Ray Comfort. At first I didn’t understand the graphic images when I first saw them a year ago…But I am realizing that most people do need a picture to soften their hearts in this perverted and adulterous generation…when images like this make people lose sleep, if that loss of sleep ends this on-slot of murders, so be it. Don’t you stop until abortion is completely illegal!!..I have a truck that I would absolutely love to poster with this anti abortion material. Add me to your list of people to notify once you get vehicle stickers for sale.”

“I just read in today’s Tampa Tribune about your truck campaign and am very impressed. Our society has tried every way to avoid seeing what it has legalized and you have found a way around it.”

“I was driving to work this morning at 8am on the 405 freeway Northbound alongside of the convoy…I read the trucks and I noticed the law enforcement type car following behind. I noted the website, and looked it up when I got to work. I read the article and got chills. I think it is a very graphic and straightforward way to get the point across, but you are absolutely right about what abortion is and what it does. It was a very sobering visual affront, but people need to know. I have had an abortion and I can tell you this…I could feel the life being pulled out of my womb and almost as though my fetus was screaming…I think your campaign will help many women choose NOT to have an abortion.”

“I think what your doing is great and those who are opposed just don’t get it! I live in Huntington Beach close to you so if you ever need any help just e-mail me.”

“As I type this message I am awash with much sadness AND much joy. The sadness comes from the obvious. The joy from the good works at hand. May God bless each and every one of you for breathing life into the pro life cause. It is by your convictions, by your witnessing, and by your creations (resulting in an enormously profound message), that hearts and souls are being changed. WOW ! If a picture is worth a thousand words…then these pictures are worth a thousand hearts each !”

“Haven’t personally seen the trucks, but please keep up the pressure. Those who are disgusted by the graphic pictures are right, abortion is disgusting and it is legalized murder. They hide the facts from unsuspecting women and girls.”

“Absolelutely AWESOME! I watched Fox11 news last night and they profiled your convoy campaign. There are so manyt people out there who don’t even think before having an abortion. With your graphic trucks, people can’t help but THINK!! Thanks and GOD BLESS YOU ALL!”

“I think your program is great. So what if it nauseates people and makes them want to throw up. It ought to! The Germans were complacent too when Hitler was murdering and incinerating people. If the Germans had been shocked to reality, they might have stopped Hitler and changed the course of history.”

“I praise your work with the truck pictures… I also would like to suggest that you consider smaller pictures that we “civilians” could put on our cars just like the new advertising program now being done. I’ll bet you could have millions of pictures on our cars in a few months. Once again, Thanks for your service.”

 

[bmmckinney]

"Haven’t personally seen the trucks, but please keep up the pressure. Those who are disgusted by the graphic pictures are right, abortion is disgusting and it is legalized murder. They hide the facts from unsuspecting women and girls. "

"My heart leapt up when I read about what you were doing and how you were covering your bases. Thank you for not sanitizing and watering down these images. Thank you for showing abortion for what it is! Little kids may have some nightmares and be horrified by these images. These are little kids who will grow up some day and may think twice about having an abortion. I’m not for seeking out little kids to show these posters to, but them seeing it in some cases will probably prevent an abortion some day. Thank you so much for your courage and obeying your convictions. Courage will rise up in others and they will be inspired that SOMETHING CAN BE DONE!!! "

“Sad but true. Keep up the good work. As more and more people see these horrible pictures, it will make them start thinking that, ‘Yes, these are really babies and this is murder.’”

“I read the article in the OC Register regarding your trucks going up and down the freeways in Southern California, and I say “RIGHT ON!”…When I read how well thought out every aspect of your truck caravans were, I marveled at your ingenuity.”

“Hooray for you!!! I was absolutely ELATED when I read the article in WorldNetDaily about your truck convoy. What a fantastic way to expose the evil of abortion. And, yes, some children will see it, but - to use the line of reasoning the liberals love to use, ‘…if it saves just one child from being killed in the womb…’ What you’re doing takes tremendous courage and I just can’t commend you enough!”

"Heard you on KFI today. Great job! Congratulations and Hats off! Rushed to send you some money… Thanks for a fantastic idea and for very, very good job on the radio today! I found myslef screeming out of my car window - Go Gregg Go! God bless you! "

"Please tell me how I may be involved in your project. I heard Gregg Cunningham on the Stand to Reason show with Greg Koukle…what a powerful and anointed voice! "

“I read two articles about your campaign, and I agree with your assessment of the mind set of some people. But people can and do change their attitudes, and I think your approach is great. However, I think it is wrong to keep children from viewing the pictures. They need to know the truth, and just like pressure from the anti-smoking campaigns in the public schools, children will pressure their parents to oppose abortion, if they know what it is. Remember, they will be voting, and need to have the desire to protect lives of pre-born children. Keep up the work, and God protect you all.”

"I have for years been convinced that the way our movement was going about things was ineffective… But your huge, bustling caravans with their blatant depictions of such consummate evil are absolutely brazen, audacious, and incendiary. They’re alive - alive with death, in all its putrid finality, and they cannot be dismissed. I applaud your effort. And I’m convinced you will succeed where so many of us have failed. "

“I saw the pictures and they are so heart-sickening, but I and others need to see and really know what happens during an abortion. I have never seen such graphic pictures. Thank you for all you do.”

 

[bmmckinney]

“I saw the pictures and they are so heart-sickening, but I and others need to see and really know what happens during an abortion. I have never seen such graphic pictures. Thank you for all you do.”

"Just wanted to let you know that I think your truck campaign is one of the most courageous and effective ways yet to get people thinking about what we have allowed to happen to ourselves as a supposed ‘civilized’ nation. "

“When I get my $300 tax relief check I will send the whole amount to you.”

“Just heard you on the radio. Go! Go! Go! BE ENCOURAGED! I thank the Lord for your opportunity on KFI. Your representative was SOOOOOO winsome. Great links too on this website. You have your arguments DOWN! EXCELLENT! Children ARE able to handle these grusome images. Nightmares (if they should have them after seeing your images) are not always bad…maybe a little child could become a spokesperson to his/her own your peers about the atrocities of abortion. Fear motivates…sheltering our children all their lives is not necessarily good.”

“My local tv news station did an article on your trucks on the evening news this evening. I have a message for you. Please, no matter who does what, don’t give up doing what you’re doing. I was dancing in my living room as I watched. The cameras, the follow cars, the letters to the local police departments—you’ve covered all the bases. My family not only considers what you do as exceptional, we call it magnificent!”

“I just read about your mighty convoy rockin’ through California, and had to write and say, ‘Bravo!’ The reason so many are offended is that you’re effective in spreading your message this way. The power of pictures!”

“I have wanted, for years, to see a campaign exactly like the one you are sponsoring. At last, at last! I have been quite choked up by this. Victory seems in view, all of a sudden.”

“I teach 8th grade English at a public school and want you to know that the majority of my students see
nothing wrong with abortion. I have long believed that if they actually saw the results of “choice” that most would
be sickened and would change their minds. I cannot show this kind of photo at school, but the kids of today need to see just what abortion does do to a baby. Thank you for doing what I legally cannot do.”

"I heard you on KFI today and tried to get through but was unable. I think what you are doing is incredible and am so happy people like you are willing to take a stand for these babies. It was so amazing the way people were so angry about what you are doing, the truth really is hideous - but they would never admit that - they just called you names. "

“I recently read an article about your Reproductive “Choice” Campaign on WorldNetDaily.com and I wanted to commend you on this brilliant strategy. These ads unavoidably point out the moral depravity, logical contradictions, and horrific violence involved in the pro-“choice” positions by making viewers immediately uncomfortable with the obvious implications of this perverted perspective marketed as ‘choice.’”

"I heard Greg on the John and Ken program on KFI and was extremely impressed with his message, his composure, his logic, and his passion. Thank God for the work you are doing! It’s no surprise that the majority of callers were appalled at your campaign. I think it is brilliant because it forces people to deal with the reality that abortion is murder. "

"I heard your wonderful representative on KFI today and I just want to say, “Bravo” for his eloquent and dignified presentation on the radio. "

"I am listening to you on John and Ken show and God bless you for getting this out into the public. It is radical, however no more radical than PETA throwing blood on people wearing fur. Where is that outrage? "

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Still waiting on something other than anecdotal evidence to show that a) it is effective at all for the target audience…

And I am still waiting for the Principle of Double Effect to be applied.

 

[KarenNC]

The following is a sample of the varied email responses which the Reproductive “Choice” Campaign receives.

You found some more anecdotes. Okay, and more of the same circular argument proves??? That the circle is still round?

Show something credible and statistically significant that shows that a greater number of women choose not to have an abortion when they see these images in this manner than women who see these images in any other way that does not involve also showing them to small children.

 

[vern_humphrey]

You found some more anecdotes. Okay, and more of the same circular argument proves??? That the circle is still round?

Show something credible and statistically significant that shows that a greater number of women choose not to have an abortion when they see these images in this manner than women who see these images in any other way that does not involve also showing them to small children.

So until someone comes up with proof that meets your standards, no one is allowed to show these pictures? Or if they do, they must show them under restrictions you set?

 

[KarenNC]

And I am still waiting for the Principle of Double Effect to be applied.

Be my guest.

 

[KarenNC]

So until someone comes up with proof that meets your standards, no one is allowed to show these pictures?

Specific citation on where I have said that no one should be allowed to show these pictures ever?

Or if they do, they must show them under restrictions you set?

Unfortunately I cannot force anyone into showing what the majority of our society seems to be able to understand are considered reasonable and appropriate standards of behavior in that society.

Until someone comes up with some convincing shred of actual evidence other than anecdotes (which are the equivalent of testimonials in an infomercial) that there is indeed no other effective avenue of sharing this information without the need to involve young children as the audience, I will continue to stand on my position that they are wrong to do so and that the ends do not justify these particular means, yes.

 

[bmmckinney]

Karen,

Its sort of very obvious you support abortion now. Who do you work for is the question, Planned Parenthood? American Abortion Providers? Are you sitting in your clinic right now being able to see women about to have abortions in the waiting room?

You wouldn’t believe this truth no matter what evidence is shown apparently but its clear to see why.

Credibility is important and you have none because you have dismissed all evidence to prove you wrong simply because you don’t like that fact and you are obviously not prolife. I can’t image why you are here trying to play games with us all.